I was walking home when someone tracked me for about 25 feet with a rather bright red laser. The spot bloomed on the sidewalk quite a bit though it was still very bright. Guess it was enough to guestimate the trajectory to the top floor of a building across 2nd Avenue in Manhattan. Figure 250 feet or so. I moved out of the beam and flashed back with BB750 Lux III Mini-Mag. Thanks Wayne! Probably wasn't the smartest thing to do, but I was peeved. A human silhoute dropped back from the window. It's happened elsewhere before and once I was actually hit with a BB or pellet. Luckily Patagonia supplex is really strong stuff.
I like playing with bright shinies, but laser tracking pedestrians is downright stupid, particularly near the Police Academy, Coroner's Office and National Guard Armory. All these places were not that long ago surrounded by City, State, and Federal LEO and military personnel bearing automatic weapons. Also not so far from the U.N. where security snipers are on occasion placed on Tudor city rooftops.
I had a knucle ead light up my partner from 20 feet, I turned and drew on him at the instant. After het got done pissing himself he yelled at us for not having a sence of humor and being trigger happy cops. I reminded him that he still breathed and he was lucky he was side lit enough to see it was a laser, or he would have been a sad statistic. The following month Arizona made a law prohibiting the lighting up of an officer. It is amazing that some vegetables can walk.
Some sushi-for-brains kid thought it was funny to shine a laser pointer into my rear view mirror on the way home from a ballgame. It's at moments like that when I wished that I'd had a portable xenon searchlight that I could point out the back window by remote control. What a farkin' idiot. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
Inform the police. With all the hype surrounding serial snipers these days, they would probably take it seriously. Direct them to the building/window that the beam came from. Hopefully, they'll raid the place and teach the moron a lesson about doing stupid things.
Well, I guess I will take an unpopular position here.
Outside of the movies and TV, I am not sure I have ever seen a laser mounted on a gun (I have not been to a gun range since they closed the San Francisco municipal range in Pacifica some 20 years ago). It is just a red (or green) light. There are already enough laws on the books about creating hazardous conditions that can get your butt fined or put in jail.
I believe I posted here earlier an article about the town that passed an anti-laser law about one year after a gunman that was SHOOTING AT COPS that made it something like a $500 fine to point a laser at somebody. Yep, that is going to scare some crook into taking the laser off of his hand gun during the middle of a gun fight--
I also have a problem that there are certain classes of people that where it is a felony to point a laser at them, whereas it is only a misdemeanor to point it at us "common" folks.
Look at the DC sniper and the Ohio (?) snipers... No lasers, just plain old iron sights and/or scopes have killed and injured a lot of people. And guess what, sights and scopes are the perfect passive sighting devices... No emissions to warn the target or to trace back for defense. The same reason our subs don't use sonar, except in extreme or non/hostile situations.
Possession of a laser is now on its way to being placed on the same footing as collapsible batons, knives, guns, spray-paint, concealed weapons, and eventually any weapons in California: Alta Loma School District:
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Laser pointers - The passage of AB 221 and AB 293 in 1999 made it illegal to aim a laser pointer at another person, to sell a laser pointer to a minor, or for students to be in possession of laser pointers on school campuses. Use of the pointer in a threatening manner against another person is a misdemeanor punishable by up to 30 days in jail. The other listed offenses are designated as “infractions” and may result in fines and community service.
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This is just another erosion of our civil rights just because there are a few jerks out there that, our nanny states, have used as a basis to interfere with all of our rights.
Ever wonder why guns were still legal in California for the great unwashed masses to own and, for a quite a time, it was illegal for us to own mace? It was because of organizations like the NRA (disclosure, I have not been a member for 30 years) that fought to keep us from going down these slippery slopes.
In the end--it is just LIGHT--photons. It is the interpretation, mostly based on popular entertainment, that has seemed to associate every laser with a gun (or is it the whole movie/Star Trek death ray thing [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ). There are situations where it is not a good thing to point it at something/someone, just as there are times when it is not good for me to turn on my high beam head lights on a car... Does that mean that high beams should be a class C felony if they accidentally shine for a moment on a police car or a bus? Should high beams be outlawed? Should minors be prohibited from driving a car that has high beams?
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A photo moved on the REUTERS international wire of presidential candidate John Kerry appears to put the Democrat frontrunner in the bull's-eye of a sniper's aim!
The controversial snap from the British-based wire immediately raised alarm in newsrooms.
"At the very least, [the photo] is in extraordinarily bad taste at a time of so many terrorist threats," one top newspaper editor said from Washington. "In my mind this is just unconscionable... we would never publish anything like this."
An official from REUTERS claims the photo is actually candidate Kerry as seen through "a television camera."
The wire explains Kerry was being interviewed by a local television station in Madison, Wisconsin when photographer John Gress captured the image.
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I really worry that all of this is being used against law abiding citizens to continue trampling our rights--It gives government more power, and does zero to actually make any of us safer.
A few years ago, I visited an ailing former cohort at a hospital in a downtown section of a large city. The surroundings left several things to be desired, but the hospital is top notch and as such I understood the reason why my buddy was there. After my visit on a cold January evening, I left the building via a side exit as the main one was a little busy.
That exit put me in an alley next to a old apartment complex. I began walking to the parking lot a block over when I noticed the red dot sporadically "painting" me. I ducked behind a concrete wall, drew my Taclite and gun, and looked around. The dot finally rested on a wall on the apartment building about 15 feet away.
I followed the beam; barely visible but quite indicative of the location of the unit. There were two figures in the shadows standing just outside of another side exit of the hospital. I watched and the one with the laser shook the other's hand and began walking away. The second person entered the hospital. The dot now began to paint the environment VERY sporadically. The laser pointer was in what appeared to be a portfolio. I followed the man and I calmly asked to have a word with him. I was about 10 yards away. I lit up the dark alley with my light until some ambient lighting was enough so that he could see me. I walked very brisky to get to him and he spotted my gun as I holstered it.
Startled, he said "Oh my God, dont't shoot. You can have anything you want." I calmed him quickly and then emphatically told him of the laser pointer he had stuffed in his portfolio that was activated and painting the environment. He had absolutely NO idea that it was activated.
It turned out that he was a doctor on the hospital staff. He was leaving after a 16 hour shift; the last 5 hours of which was teaching some interns in a large classroom setting. Thus accounting for the use of the laser pointer.
I told him about the readiness that certain people go into when they get painted with a laser dot. He had no idea of such applications and apologized PROFUSELY. We became friends thereafter and I introduced him to more aggressive uses of laser devices. I had dinner with his wife and he a couple of months ago and they are now active sport shooters. And yes, they both use gun-mounted lasers on their home defense pistols.
This was a happy ending, but I have heard of not-so amicable encounters.
With a "back to the begining" of the thread - "dotting" as the punks call it IS Illegal in NYC - I think it's the same category as Assault with a deadly weapon - yeah, your justified (leaglly) in drawing on someone dotting you if I remember right
Except, in NYC, it has been illegal for a normal citizen to carry a hand gun for a very long time (gun control started in NYC around 1905)...
OK to shoot somebody "dotting" you in NYC with your mythical gun?
But, if you have a real gun and use it against armed robbers, you are arrested:
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NY Post: Editorial: Feeling Lucky Perp?
"Be dead or be arrested. That's the choice New York's mindlessly enforced gun laws force upon otherwise law-abiding people. Consider: Mohammed Dramy, a 40-year-old Gambian immigrant, was shot dead Tuesday during an apparent robbery in Harlem. The perpetrator is still at large. Meanwhile, two bodega employees, Jose Acosta, 69, and Victor Alejandro, 23, are alive following an attempted armed robbery the same day. And it's a perp who's dead. Sadly, Acosta and Alejandro are now charged with criminal possession of a weapon. As three armed would-be robbers entered their store waving guns, Acosta pulled out a .22-caliber pistol, fatally shooting one; the others escaped."
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Guess they would have been OK to shoot the robbers if they used laser pointers instead...
For what it's worth in Virginia it's a rules violation to 'dot' someone with a laser as well. It's considered a hostile act, and I might draw on the subject as well if I feel threatened. If shot, my wife will avenge me.
Virginia has reasonable gun laws, and a lower crime rate than the Peoples Republics of New York, Chicago, SF, DC, and a bunch of other whiney towns.
Hope all is well
Jack Crow here in Iraq
w/o laser pointers!
And we all remember the Japanese student during Halloween that just was holding a camera when he went to ask directions...
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A man in Louisiana was cleared of wrongdoing in 1993 after he shot a Halloween-costumed Japanese exchange student knocking on his door looking for a party in 1992. He turned himself in after a grand jury had indicted him on charges of manslaughter in the killing of Yoshihiro Hattori of Nagoya, Japan. Hattori's friend testified in the trial that he was carrying a camera when they knocked on Rodney Peairs' door.
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He was also acquitted at trial. So it is OK to shoot somebody holding a camera too--the law said so...
Well, I guess I am not going to get very many people to change their minds here. I was trying to get people to not be too ready to shot someone that, more than likely, was just playing with laser pointer. A doctor that forgot his laser pointer was turned on, a construction worker or home owner trying to draw a level line or square up fence, a highway construction crew with rotating laser levels are now all fair game. And we even have case law in Louisiana that somebody holding a camera can also be shot in self defense.
For those of us that live in states where us common folk cannot do canceled carry, we will be just left to worry about those people carrying real guns (most likely, without laser pointers) and knives to rob/rape/kill us at their pleasure (and, heaven forbid we have a gun to defend ourselves, we may get prosecuted too). While those with CCW's, can shoot first if they see a red dot...
Virginia takes a dim view of it's citizens shooting each other.
You nearly have to be backed into a corner before using deadly force. Then it's a major police / states attorney invistagation and if the permit holder did any thing wrong it's a criminal case just like the guy that trys to mug me.
A typical defense from this costs between 50 and 80k bucks. For leagaly shooting someone. Then again you have to be alive to pay for the lawyer. Some gun clubs lawyers have a pro bono charge for good shoots.
Generaly all a dirt bag has to see is your armed and willing to use it, they run. Being killed is not part of the job discription.
It's the stoned out of their mind guys that will take on an armed citizen.
Nice thing about virginia is we can carry hidden or open. Open carry is not brandishing. If it leaves the leather that's brandishing.
An armed citizen also has a duty to the public. That is to come to the aid and defence of others.
If I come across a traffic stop, I tend to hang out there, If a cop stops a car full of unhappy looking gang members. Most of the cops home know I carry. Cops don't have an easy life either.
So for your situation your choices are, get politically active. In SF that may not help given the leanings of your neighbors. Or.... Move to NV where the laws are better.
There is a limit to the help I can give from here.
Using lasers to "light up" individuals is bad.I don't know,or care whether it is legal.It makes me nervous.It indicates that I am being aimed at.This will make me respond to the perceived threat.
It's not that I'm all that concerned about guns or lasers.Just don't point them at me,or my family.Don't make me nervous. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/xyxgun.gif[/img]
I think this topic has drifted just a tad. The topic is not the actual use of a laser pointer but the targeting of a laser at an individual. There is no reason in the world why anyone should point a laser at someone else unless their intent is to cause mischief or harm. Either way, it is not funny or cute or innocent or harmless. I think we've been provided with enough cases here where the results of such "harmless fun" could have and/or did result in some not-so-much-fun endings. It's just stupid.
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Outside of the movies and TV, I am not sure I have ever seen a laser mounted on a gun ...
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Sorry Bill... you know I usually agree with everything you say but I have to take exception to that comment. This type of comment always makes my eyes roll back into their sockets... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] ... Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist and it's not a real concern. You are lucky that you don't seem to have this problem where you live but the fact of the matter is that there are alot of weapon mounted laser scopes running around out there. Thankfully, most of them are used by specialized law enforcement officers... but you have to figure that if the good guys have them, the bad guys do too. That's not a false assumption in the least bit.
Targeting someone with a laser... whether mounted on a weapon or held in the hand is simply a very stupid thing to do and tantamount to suicide. And as with most things nowadays, our government has seen fit to protect idiots from themselves. I think we need to go back to the good old days of Darwinism.
I thought I heard on the news that a certain color (red) maybe was banned for public sale and reserved for police gun sighting, I thought this was US wide as well. But then again the media can't report anything accurately anyway.
Targeting someone with a laser is no different than pointing a fake gun at someone. It's stupid. If someone gets shot it's their own fault. If you're targeted with a weapon mounted laser you don't have time to question whether it's the real thing or a joke, just as if you have a gun turned on you; you wouldn't have time to analyze whether it's real. Surviving means taking immediate action, not standing there waiting to hear the shot.
I agree that pointing a laser at somebody ticks them off, and if the "target" has a gun (or is operating dangerous equipment, etc.), worse can happen... I don't do it and would tell my kids the same thing. People were painting folks and pissing them off with lasers before one was ever made small enough and attached to a gun.
Assault rifles, or scary guns, are illegal to purchase in California.
Surefire catalog is full of flashlight mounted on guns too. I am waiting for gun mounted / scary flashlights to be controlled/illegal too.
I don't expect to ever have complete agreement on anything... But even as Sasha said:
[ QUOTE ]
...there are alot of weapon mounted laser scopes running around out there. Thankfully, most of them are used by specialized law enforcement officers... but you have to figure that if the good guys have them, the bad guys do too
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was my point--Lasers are not very often mounted on civilian or cop's guns. I looked through google and could find only a couple of articles that even referenced a laser mounted on a gun used in a crime (one I posted on an earlier thread where the bad guy was actually shooting people--not just painting them). The only other mention I could find was the DC snipers, at some point in their life, apparently had a laser on a rifle (the article was not clear). And a new one police inspector accidentally shoots gun in Japanese police station during laser sight training.
Even one of the CPF vendor's (won't mention name--because it is not really relevant to suck them into this discussion) for a while had a law enforcement only restriction on one of their weapon flashlight light mounts (because of unclear laws?).
For me, making laser mounted sights illegal (which is were we appear to be heading) is not going to affect me one way or the other. Yes, I have seen lasers and lasers mounted on guns in show rooms... just none out in the "wild".
I am not naive. I know that laser sights are out there in many different hands. It just seems that pretty much every mention here (and google searches) was the stupid use of a laser pointer--not the targeting of a weapon mounted laser (and the one I found, the gun was being shot at people--). Given that weapon mounted lasers are much more expensive and sold in far fewer locations than the cheap lasers at Pet Co., it would seem that virtually all laser paintings are not from weapon mounted lasers.
Just out of curiosity--do you guys believe that weapon mounted laser sights should be restricted to government / law enforcement only? They don't seem to have much use in the civilian market and, I guess, we could make everyone (including police officers and stupid people that aim guns with lasers at folks) safer.
In some states, we have already outlawed purchase of simple laser pointers by minors. Eliminating the mounting of lasers to weapons would seem to make everyone safer--since making them illegal will eliminate their use on weapons (yea, like I believe another law will make us safer [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ). Then any laser seen out there will be harmless and if a gun w/ laser is found, it can be confiscated and the owner prosecuted.
As I said, it was not important for me as I don't ever plan on using a laser sight--I just use lasers around the house for remodeling. However, I do believe they have legitimate uses both on and off guns and I worry that if we don't defend the legitimate use of something it will eventually be controlled and/or banned.
I will try and stop beating the dead horse now... I am here to learn too.
PS: I am thinking of moving to Reno / Carson Valley Nevada, or somewhere else. If nothing more than because they are turning California into a welfare/nanny state where government's biggest problem is how to squeeze more money from the few taxpayers that will be left here in a couple more years...
Lasers on guns should'nt be banned.The major disadvantage to the user is that you are revealing your location.I believe LEOs use infrared(not visible). Lasers do look cool in the movies, but it's not cutting edge technology.Menacing,targeting,aiming weapons at people is already very illegal.Anyone who does should'nt be surprised if there are dire consequences for their actions.
I have used laser equiped hand guns in Virginia. Crimson Trace seems to be a popular brand. It's about a 200 dollar upgrade for most hand guns.
Yeah it's cool to use. It's also a new skill set to use well, and another gizmo to fail in a time of need.
The usual pattern is a guy (never saw a woman buy one) gets one , uses it for a few weeks, then put the standard parts back in his gun and trys to sell it in six months.
The advantage is mostly mental, not physical.
It also shows up human physical limits.
If I use it, the dot moves around and is nearly impossible to hold still. For target shooting it's a huge distraction. For human size targets it's not too bad.
If my wife uses it, she can hold it steady.
The reason is women are better wired than men are.
Most women can out shoot most guys.
As a tatical tool it has it's limits. Like a pointing finger the path shows up two ways. From the target to the pointer and back again.
Legal issues, bans, are all nonsense. The hand gun hasen't changed in a truly basic way in 30 (possibly longer) years. Materials and tolerances have improved, but the gizmo is still very much the same.
The troops here have an IR laser that allows them to aim thier rifles at night with the NVG gear. Check my photos for a look at that. Many of the guys have one of the ultra bright lamps on their rifle as well for spoting things in the dark here.
Hope all is well
Keep it warm
Jack Crow in Iraq [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif[/img]
Just to clarify my personal opinion... From what I am aware of, the vast majority of police and police administrations seem to support civilian CCW laws--with the exception of some (most?) police chiefs in large, liberal, cities (and some states?).
In other words, gun control laws have always been politically and racially motivated--and not enacted because the average police officer wanted an unarmed citizenry to harass without consequences.