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Thread: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

  1. #1
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Rear fog lamps could have helped prevent this: https://weather.com/news/news/2018-0...ly-highway-151

    In addition to rear fog lamps, drivers need to be educated on how to drive in fog like that.

  2. #2

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    That's awful. Would it make sense to have some kind of sensor that would automatically turn on the rear fog lamps?

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    Flashaholic* FRITZHID's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    That was near Madison, WI., just south-ish of me.
    Unfortunately, I do not believe rear fog lamps would have helped very much... Maybe.... But not likely. That crash occurred just as the sun was starting to cause very bad glare, little in the way of lights would have helped unless there are shady spots due to trees or buildings, and even then, with the traffic density in that area, ..... In reality, the ONLY thing that would have prevented this magnitude of a traffic incident would be active traffic monitoring and billboard warnings (such as in Hampton Roads area and LA/SF, etc). Larger cities with high traffic control funding.
    I Got tired of looking for the light at the end of the tunnel so i lit that bitch up myself! Convoy s2 365nm, Maxa-Beam Gen II, 55w hid/100w incan Vector Twin, Amondotech n30, vss-3A, Reylight Ti Lan v3, Helius Sigma 9, astrolux s41 219, Shadow JM35, BLF GT,

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    Flashaholic* martinaee's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Oh man... I saw some videos posted on Reddit/YT a month or two ago of pile-ups in fog like this. I think it was kind of a snow-storm too, but I think if I were ever in fog like this I would immediately try to pull way off to the side of the road if possible. I've seen dash cam videos of people literally just continuing to drive full speed through fog when they can't even see 10 feet in front of their car. What the heeeeck!!!

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    Flashaholic* FRITZHID's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by martinaee View Post
    Oh man... I saw some videos posted on Reddit/YT a month or two ago of pile-ups in fog like this. I think it was kind of a snow-storm too, but I think if I were ever in fog like this I would immediately try to pull way off to the side of the road if possible. I've seen dash cam videos of people literally just continuing to drive full speed through fog when they can't even see 10 feet in front of their car. What the heeeeck!!!
    Yes, it's insane to try and continue at hwy speeds in these conditions. There's little to no reaction time available for anyone on the roads.
    I Got tired of looking for the light at the end of the tunnel so i lit that bitch up myself! Convoy s2 365nm, Maxa-Beam Gen II, 55w hid/100w incan Vector Twin, Amondotech n30, vss-3A, Reylight Ti Lan v3, Helius Sigma 9, astrolux s41 219, Shadow JM35, BLF GT,

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    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Even the "cameraman" started going back up to high speed after going "whoaaa" at the whole thing.

  7. #7

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    I have been a huge advocate of rear fog lights since I learned about them here on CF!! After our area's worst winter in 40 years last year, I bought a dedicated winter use only 4WD pickup, but can't find a bolt on aftermarket LED unit. The Peterson 850 looks like the hot setup, but I can't find one in using inferior web-fu tactics. It is hard to determine if rear fog lights would have prevented this particular event, but I believe if they were in common use, maybe the severity of this crash would behave been minimized.

  8. #8

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Any kind of lights are usually not effective in very heavy fog. We have the "Tule fog" in CA and you can't see lights of other vehicles beyond about 2 or 3 car lengths at the worse conditions. At night or sometimes even in the day, you may not recognize the wall of fog you are approaching at highway speed, until you are in it. I've experienced it several times. It makes you understand how these accidents happen. At 70mph, you are traveling 102 feet per second. That's about 7 car lengths per second.

    The manufacturers of newer cars have anti-collision sensors. My wife's Flex has this system. Her car just provides a flashing HUD and audible horn. Newer ones have active braking. These systems can be effective in reducing these accidents.
    Last edited by spurshooter; 02-14-2018 at 08:12 AM.

  9. #9
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill, Idaho View Post
    The Peterson 850 looks like the hot setup, but I can't find one in using inferior web-fu tactics.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=peterson+850F

    Do they (Levine Auto Parts or Fox Tail Lights) not ship to Idaho, or do they not have Google in Idaho?

  10. #10

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Moderator Edit
    No.


    --Alaric D
    Last edited by Alaric Darconville; 02-14-2018 at 09:06 AM. Reason: Rule 11

  11. #11

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    The photometric requirements for the US and ECE rear fog light function are identical to those of the US stop (brake) light function: 80cd to 300cd on axis, with various off-axis requirements. There's a minimum lit area requirement for the stop light function that does not apply to the rear fog function.
    Virgil does not advocate using this set up but explains how to do so if one must.

    For those reasons I don't recommend using a stop lamp as a rear fog, but if you must, it's probably better than nothing. Leave lots of distance between it and your stop lamp, and try to set the vehicle up with amber rather than red turn signals to avoid lumping too many functions on a red-light appearance.
    Last edited by Alaric Darconville; 02-14-2018 at 09:45 AM. Reason: Cleaned up the FONT/COLOR laden "quotes"

  12. #12
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by fastgun View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    The photometric requirements for the US and ECE rear fog light function are identical to those of the US stop (brake) light function: 80cd to 300cd on axis, with various off-axis requirements. There's a minimum lit area requirement for the stop light function that does not apply to the rear fog function.
    If they are identical, why would it violate rule 11? It is certainly not illegal to do this, and brake lights are not unsafe.
    Prooftexting can be a pitfall:

    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    Whoops, looks as if I was recalling an older version of the SAE spec (J1319) for rear fog lamps. The photometric requirement is compatible but not the same for rear fogs and for stop lamps. The photometric requirements are practically identical for US and ECE rear fogs, just expressed differently due to different test voltages.

    US stop (brake) light size 1, e.g., a single-compartment lamp with a filament bulb: Minimum 80cd at (H,V) and (H, 5L/5R); min 40cd at (H, 10L/10R); min 70cd at (5U/5D, V); min 30cd at (5U/5D, 10L/10R); min 10cd at (5U/5D, 20L/20R); maximum 300cd anywhere.

    Rear fog light (at US test voltage): Minimum 125cd all along H line from 10° left to 10° right and all along V line from 5° up to 5° down, minimum 62.5cd within the diamond-shaped zone with corner points (H, 10L/10R) and (5U/5D, V). Maximum 250cd anywhere.

    So the rear fog lamp has a slightly lower max intensity, but a higher minimum intensity at a larger range of test areas, while the stop lamp has a slightly higher max intensity, but a lower minimum enforced at more test points through a wider angular range.
    The higher minima in those certain test points and other changes in the photemetry result in the fog lamp still having more apparent 'punch' to a viewer. Stop lamps aren't unsafe when used correctly, but misused stop lamps ARE.

    Another aspect is if the driver is stopped with what looks like a stuck on stop lamp, they may try to explain it's a rear fog lamp, but the officer will inspect the lens markings (which aren't required, but are usually present) and find it's a stop lamp. Equipment malfunction. With the correct lens markings, you might not escape being stopped but it should resolve itself much more readily.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastgun View Post
    Virgil does not advocate using this set up but explains how to do so if one must.
    But when is "if one must"?

    Maybe: You've got everything set up for your rear fog lamp except for the lamp itself. You've got somewhere to be in another state, but in the next county and along the way to your destination, you know the Schlep Boys (Jammy, Joe, and Mack) have the 850F. However, there's a heavy fog forecast. You want to have a stopgap measure, so you dig out one of your spare Peterson 850R stop/tail lamp modules and install it. You get to the Schlep Boys safely, and install the 850F.

    But if you're planning this installation and have neither a spare 850R nor an 850F, just order the 850F and build it right the very first time.
    Last edited by Alaric Darconville; 02-14-2018 at 10:06 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    what a wrong statement!

    rear fog lites would not have helped ANYTHING there (or at any other occasion else).
    The only thing they do is that some idiots turn them on - mostly in situations where they are used wrongly, like in rain - and forget about them afterwards.
    I admit ONE SITUATION: when You are last and somewhere on the country.
    But in typical traffic they are totally idiotic, blinding anyone behind.

    The PROBLEM are drivers that
    * drive too quick for the situation
    * leave no distance
    * and so on, insert most any error to think of

    but I must admit, the idiots keep getting less. Nowadays there are only 2-3 left on my 40 km to work in the morning that insist on using their rear fogs at the nicest winter days.

    PS: Jaycee's idea is great!
    but it has to be finalized:
    a sensor that turns that totally unnecessary rear light OFF, when no longer needed
    or even better and cheaper: a "pushbutton setup" for turnig it on (no steady mechanical "switch") that kills the light, when the ignition is turned off
    Last edited by yellow; 02-14-2018 at 01:40 PM.

  14. #14
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by yellow View Post
    what a wrong statement!
    Whoaaaaa, dogie! What an inflammatory statement.

    You realize Austria, being a UNECE signatory, requires rear fog lamps on all roadgoing vehicles. And why do they, along with the other UNECE signatories? It may well be that they are proven to reduce rear-end collisions when used appropriately.

    Could/should the function be fully automated? A nice idea, but then what about the driver using a car not so-equipped? We can't just let the technology do everything-- drivers do need education and training for the other features to truly be effective. We see drivers going without headlamps because their DRLs are on and their dashboard is all lit up, and instead of red warning that "lights are required but not on", instead we have a green indicator showing that they ARE on when on. I think a present red warning is more effective than a not-present green indicator. Ultimately, it is the operator of the vehicle who is responsible for the operation of the vehicle, and so they do need to know more about what the functions are and how to use them appropriately.

    Similarly, new cars having forward-collision detection systems are a great idea, but perhaps our rear turn signals should have been separate and amber this whole time, which is much more effective as a warning to other drivers and is helpful to people with or without those systems.

    And, finally, there are already some stringent wiring and "telltale" requirements:

    Quote Originally Posted by UNECE R48, 6.11.7.*, .8
    6.11.7. Electrical connections
    These shall be such that:
    6.11.7.1. The rear fog-lamp(s) cannot be switched on unless the main beams, dipped-beams or front fog-lamps are lit;
    6.11.7.2. The rear fog-lamp(s) can be switched off independently of any other lamp;
    6.11.7.3. Either of the following applies:
    6.11.7.3.1. The rear fog lamp(s) may continue to operate until the position lamps are switched off, and the rear fog lamp(s) shall then remain off until deliberately switched on again;
    6.11.7.3.2. A warning, at least audible, additional to the mandatory tell-tale (paragraph 6.11.8.) shall be given if the ignition is switched off or the ignition key is withdrawn and the driver's door is opened, whether the lamps in (paragraph 6.11.7.1.) are on or off, whilst the rear fog lamp switch is in the "on" position.
    6.11.7.4. Except as provided in paragraphs 6.11.7.1., 6.11.7.3. and 6.11.7.5., the operation of the rear fog lamp(s) shall not be affected by switching on or off any other lamps.
    6.11.7.5. The rear fog lamp(s) of a drawing motor vehicle may be automatically switched off while a trailer is connected and the rear fog lamp(s) of the trailer is (are) activated.

    6.11.8. Tell-tale
    Circuit-closed tell-tale mandatory. An independent non-flashing warning light.
    It's clear that in some areas, drivers aren't well equipped to handle such a hazardous road condition. The drivers of lead vehicles have to make some touch choices, like do I keep going? Do I slow down? How much do I slow down? The rear fog lamp helps give the drivers behind them additional warning that they, too, should be slowing down.

    One thing that could help mitigate all this is better vehicle-to-vehicle, vehicle-to-infrastructure, and infrastructure-to-vehicle communication (V2V, V2I, I2V, read about some of it here)-- again, technologies that might begin to be available in future model years but not in every car.
    Last edited by Alaric Darconville; 02-14-2018 at 02:05 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by yellow View Post
    what a wrong statement!
    Well, no.

    rear fog lites would not have helped ANYTHING there (or at any other occasion else)
    Now that's a wrong statement. For one thing, nobody has an alternative-universe crystal ball to tell for sure what would have happened in this case if one thing had been different (vehicles equipped with rear fog lamps). That said, rear fog lamps are known to reduce crashes, and have been since the early 1960s.

    The only thing they do is that some idiots turn them on - mostly in situations where they are used wrongly, like in rain - and forget about them afterwards.
    You're objecting to some drivers' misuse of rear fog lamps. That's a legitimate objection -- people should use their car's equipment correctly -- but it doesn't mean rear fog lamps are useless. By your logic, turn signals are useless because some people fail to use them, or leave them on after completing a turn or lane change. That doesn't make any sense, and neither does what you say.

    The PROBLEM are drivers that
    * drive too quick for the situation
    * leave no distance
    * and so on, insert most any error to think of
    Right, and rear fog lamps aren't a magical countervail to make drivers behave better, but they do afford a longer visibility distance in bad weather. That's how they provide a safety benefit.

    or even better: a "pushbutton setup" for turnig it on (no steady mechanical "switch") that kills the light, when the ignition is turned off
    This requirement is already built into UN Regulation 48, which states:

    6.11.7. Electrical connections
    These shall be such that:

    6.11.7.1. The rear fog-lamp(s) cannot be switched on unless the main beams, dipped-beams or front fog-lamps are lit;

    6.11.7.2. The rear fog-lamp(s) can be switched off independently of any other lamp;

    6.11.7.3. Either of the following applies:

    6.11.7.3.1. The rear fog lamp(s) may continue to operate until the position lamps are switched off, and the rear fog lamp(s) shall then remain off until deliberately switched on again;

    6.11.7.3.2. A warning, at least audible, additional to the mandatory tell-tale (paragraph 6.11.8.) shall be given if the ignition is switched off or the ignition key is withdrawn and the driver's door is opened, whether the lamps in (paragraph 6.11.7.1.) are on or off, whilst the rear fog lamp switch is in the "on" position.

    (boldface type added for emphasis)

    This requirement is at least 8 years old now, and probably helps explain why, in your words, "the idiots keep getting less. Nowadays there are only 2-3 left on my 40 km to work in the morning that insist on using their rear fogs at the nicest winter days".

  16. #16
    Flashaholic* zespectre's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    I've wondered any number of times if those devices that put a "warning don't get too close line" behind your car with a laser would be a good thing to make standard on vehicles.
    "Notorious collector of things that glow, shine, or blink"
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  17. #17
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by zespectre View Post
    I've wondered any number of times if those devices that put a "warning don't get too close line" behind your car with a laser would be a good thing to make standard on vehicles.
    Wonder no more! Those are eBay toys, and variations in the road surface make that line jagged and full of gaps at best. At worst, they can (through specular glare) be searing to another driver's eyes. Remember, angle of incidence equals angle of reflection.

  18. #18

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    This is a bit off topic but I see the word "idiot" thrown around a lot on this forum when talking about misuse of different types of equipment in vehicles such as foglights. In some cases people are idiots but in many cases they just simply aren't taught. I think that proper use of lights, proper speeds to drive in different conditions and amongst many other things should be on the drivers test when getting your drivers license and that as any traffic laws change or as new vehicle technologies are implemented into vehicles there should be a mandatory refresh on these things at the time of ones drivers license renewal. A lot of ignorance that people display on the road should be blamed on the government I think,and are not simply people being idiots. The government has a responsibility to inform it's citizens and not leave it up to them to "just figure it out".

    Hope that is legible. Typed it on my phone.

  19. #19

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by yellow View Post
    I admit ONE SITUATION: when You are last and somewhere on the country.
    But in typical traffic they are totally idiotic, blinding anyone behind.
    I couldn't agree more.

    When in a line of vehicles (you're only driving as fast as the slowest car anyway),only the front and rear car should have fog lights on, unless in fog where you can't see five feet in front of you (extremely rare). I believe that's written into the driving rules here in Slovakia, but it may just be a recommendation.

    Driving behind someone with the rear fog light on (at eye level yet) in less dense fog is like someone having their brake lights on constantly in front of you. Much more annoying than those red turn signals in another thread and probably just as dangerous.

  20. #20
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by CeeBee View Post
    When in a line of vehicles (you're only driving as fast as the slowest car anyway),only the front and rear car should have fog lights on, unless in fog where you can't see five feet in front of you (extremely rare). I believe that's written into the driving rules here in Slovakia, but it may just be a recommendation.
    [Citation Needed]

    Driving behind someone with the rear fog light on (at eye level yet) in less dense fog is like someone having their brake lights on constantly in front of you. Much more annoying than those red turn signals in another thread and probably just as dangerous.
    Have you tried not following too closely? As far as "eye level", there is some amount of latitude for mounting heights:

    In height: not less than 250 mm nor more than 1,000 mm above the ground. For rear fog lamps grouped with any rear lamp or for category N3G (off-road) vehicles, the maximum height may be increased to 1,200 mm.
    But usually they're closer to the 250mm height than as high up as 1 or 1.2m.
    Last edited by Alaric Darconville; 02-14-2018 at 04:37 PM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    For those of us who drive vehicles that don't have rear fog lamps, what would be the next best way to improve our visibility to the motorist behind us? Turn on the hazards? Or would that be too confusing?

  22. #22

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Has it ever been established through research that rear fog lights provide a safety benefit beyond other means such as using the hazard warning lights? As this forum is so often reminded there is a major difference in subjective opinion and objective fact. One study from the University of Michigan’s researcher Michael Flannagan states, “In terms of vehicle lighting, the most promising approach to improving safety in fog may be the use of rear fog lamps. Such lamps would appear to be very effective in addressing the important problem of collisions with other vehicles in fog.” Ok, I believe it Michael Flannagan is a smart man, but, it is an opinion built on maybes and what might be. It is not a fact based on research.

    This same report has other such opinion statements such as this, “The NTSB report considered a range of possible countermeasures, including better use of citizens band radios, and laser and radar detection systems. The report discussed, and dismissed, the possibility of front fog lamps as a solution in a single short paragraph, which also included a favorable mention of rear fog lamps.” I am not going to run out and get a CB radio based on this report nor will I install a rear fog light because it received favorable mention.

    The study concludes, “In terms of vehicle lighting, the most promising approach to improving safety in fog may be the use of rear fog lamps.”
    It certainly may be. But it may not be.

    This study is rather old. There are hopefully more recent studies. Do any of you have links to studies or research about the safety aspects of rear fog lights?
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 02-14-2018 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Clean up a bunch of spurious font formatting. Please quit it.

  23. #23

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by jaycee88 View Post
    For those of us who drive vehicles that don't have rear fog lamps, what would be the next best way to improve our visibility to the motorist behind us? Turn on the hazards?
    Yes, and slow way down.

  24. #24

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by fastgun View Post
    Has it ever been established through research that rear fog lights provide a safety benefit
    Yes. Fairly extensive research on the topic was done in Germany in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and then again in the late 1970s and again in the early 1990s. I have some of this research, but it's all in deep storage I won't practically have access to until at least next summer, and none of it is in a form that is readily postable. In the meantime, there's a good and very dense US-based report, with lots of references for further reading, here.

    Ok, I believe it Michael Flannagan is a smart man, but, it is an opinion built on maybes and what might be. It is not a fact based on research.
    Well, no. Out of context that's what it sounds like, but in fact (and in context) it's a statement made in the kind of language that is appropriate and expected in a formal scientific paper. It translates more or less to "Rear fog lamps work, but a discussion of that topic is outside the scope of this paper".


    This same report has other such opinion statements such as this, “The NTSB report considered a range of possible countermeasures, including better use of citizens band radios, and laser and radar detection systems
    That's not an opinion, it's a description of an NTSB report.

    The report discussed, and dismissed, the possibility of front fog lamps as a solution in a single short paragraph, which also included a favorable mention of rear fog lamps.
    That's also not an opinion, it's further description of the NTSB report. Literature review is another standard part of a scientific paper.

    Scientific papers are similar to technical standards and regulations in the respect that they're written with English words, but the language they're written in is not the ordinary everyday English you and I speak. Terms and tones that mean one thing in regular English mean very different things in technical standards, regulations, and scientific papers. Just because someone can proficiently read and comprehend English does not necessarily mean they can proficiently read and comprehend scientific papers, and your reaction to the one you looked at shows that you're more toward the "cannot" end of that scale. This is not meant or intended as an insult; most people don't have this skill because most people don't have occasion to read scientific papers.

    The study concludes, “In terms of vehicle lighting, the most promising approach to improving safety in fog may be the use of rear fog lamps.” It certainly may be. But it may not be.
    You're doing it again: reading a scientific paper as though it's a newspaper article or cookbook.

    This study is rather old
    That doesn't make it null or void. Not much has changed about driving in fog. We have some new light sources (LEDs) for vehicle lights, but the specifications for taillamps and rear fog lamps haven't changed significantly.

    I am not going to run out and get a CB radio based on this report nor will I install a rear fog light because it received favorable mention.
    Um...good for you, I guess? Not sure what you intend with this statement. Taken together with the tone of your whole post, and that other babble you put up about misusing brake lamps as rear fog lamps, it looks like you're spoiling for a fight. No fight is warranted here, and more importantly, a fight of the kind you seem to want to try to start will not be tolerated on this board.

    (Also, I had to clean up a bunch of font-formatting markup in your post, and Alaric had to do the same in your earlier post. I'm not sure why you are so insistent that what you type should appear in the Verdana font, but please stop it. You might be doing it intentionally, or you might be accidentally doing it by composing your post in Microsoft Word and then copy/pasting it here, but either way, please stop it. It's not nice to make messes other people have to come along and clean up.)
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 02-14-2018 at 06:53 PM.

  25. #25

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by jaycee88 View Post
    For those of us who drive vehicles that don't have rear fog lamps, what would be the next best way to improve our visibility to the motorist behind us? Turn on the hazards? Or would that be too confusing?
    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    Yes, and slow way down.
    Im not sure about that Virgil. There are disadvantages to using flashers while driving such as them disabling the blinkers on many vehicles and its actually illegal in many states to use your flashers while driving. There was even a recent news article where police were telling people not to use their flashers in extremely heavy rain.

    http://www.ajc.com/news/national/usi...iowRgq5CgPjLP/
    Last edited by Magio; 02-14-2018 at 07:06 PM.

  26. #26

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Oh, don't get me wrong; flashers are not optimal for the task. But if you must be on the road in severely reduced visibility conditions, and you don't have a rear fog lamp, flashers are both preferable to nothing, and preferable to anything else you might have available -- the only other option would be riding the brakes, which would rob followers of a visible state change when you slow down, and that would be a severe safety hazard). Moreover, using flashers in these conditions is defensible on grounds that an invisible car is a safety hazard. As for no-hazards-when-driving laws, well, sometimes we have to choose between being compliant and being safest, and I'd much rather receive a ticket for improper use of flashers than get plowed into by a car, truck or bus whose driver couldn't see me.

    (also, you're not really going to sit there and argue that the flashers overriding the turn signals is a bigger safety hazard than the presence and position of your car being invisible to other drivers, are you? It's a nonissue anyway; if you're forced to use the flashers in low-visibility conditions, of course you would turn off the flashers if you needed to use the turn signal.)
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 02-14-2018 at 08:24 PM.

  27. #27

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    Oh, don't get me wrong; flashers are not optimal for the task. But if you must be on the road in severely reduced visibility conditions, and you don't have a rear fog lamp, flashers are both preferable to nothing, and preferable to anything else you might have available -- the only other option would be riding the brakes, which would rob followers of a visible state change when you slow down, and that would be a severe safety hazard). Moreover, using flashers in these conditions is defensible on grounds that an invisible car is a safety hazard. As for no-hazards-when-driving laws, well, sometimes we have to choose between being compliant and being safest, and I'd much rather receive a ticket for improper use of flashers than get plowed into by a car, truck or bus whose driver couldn't see me.
    I do think you have a point and there have been times in the past when I was caught in super heavy rain unexpectedly and I too used my flashers to help make myself more conspicuous. After I read articles such as the one above stating not to do that though, I didn't know whether the increased conspicuity outweighed the dangers of confusing other drivers.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    also, you're not really going to sit there and argue that the flashers overriding the turn signals is a bigger safety hazard than the presence and position of your car being invisible to other drivers, are you?
    I'm not arguing with anybody. I paraphrased an article. Since there have been many police officers who have stated that I'm sure they have seen some incidents wherein the use of flashers confused someone and caused/almost caused an accident. It goes back to what I stated earlier that I didn't know whether the increased conspicuity outweighs the dangers of confusing other drivers. Maybe you have something that shows otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    It's a nonissue anyway; if you're forced to use the flashers in low-visibility conditions, of course you would turn off the flashers if you needed to use the turn signal.
    Oh no its not that simple. Of course you can turn the flashers off but there are many, many people (and I know because I used to be one of them) who do not know, or may forget in a tense situation, that the flashers disable the blinkers. Many years ago before I knew that, I drove on the road a couple of times with my flashers on and also trying to use my turn signals. I didn't know that moving the blinker stalk was doing absolutely nothing. I didn't realize it until I read it in an article and I didn't believe the article until I actually went out and tested it. I had not really given it any thought but in my subconscious I figured the blinker stalk would over-ride the flashers which I later found out wasn't true. It would be nice if they insured everyone knew these thing when they go to get their drivers license.

  28. #28
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by jaycee88 View Post
    For those of us who drive vehicles that don't have rear fog lamps, what would be the next best way to improve our visibility to the motorist behind us? Turn on the hazards?
    Typically, hazard flashers are for stopped vehicles only (although some people use them to try to get to the hospital quickly, an 'off-label' use). But in super heavy fog or extremely torrential rain, the hazard flashers help make your car more visible and it's all automatic. Separate yellow rear turn signals would work even better, because then your stop lamps' message isn't ambiguated. For the most part, it may be safer to *keep moving* than to pull off unless there's a very safe place to pull off-- and then people behind you may yet still try to follow.

  29. #29
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by Magio View Post
    Im not sure about [using hazard flashers if rear fog lamps aren't available]. There are disadvantages to using flashers while driving such as them disabling the blinkers on many vehicles and its actually illegal in many states to use your flashers while driving.
    Yes, we've said "you can't wish a lamp into another function", but hazard flashers are designed to warn other drivers of a particular vehicular hazard. Yes, they're typically used with stopped vehicles, but in conditions like super-dense fog and torrential rain, *stopping* your vehicle, even when pulled off to the side of the road, can put you and others in more danger. Proceeding slowly and cautiously is sometimes the more prudent choice.

    There was even a recent news article where police were telling people not to use their flashers in extremely heavy rain.
    I've seen "recent news articles" where the police say some dumb things, and sometimes outright wrong things (I'd seen a warning to not deposit a scam check on the basis that it "gives the scammer access to your bank account".) I've also seen "recent news articles" where the police say something, and the journalists miss the point entirely and write something dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by From that poorly-researched fluff piece
    A metro Atlanta police department recently warned its residents that using hazard lights while you're driving may incorrectly signal to other motorists that you're stopped or otherwise traveling much slower than other traffic.
    No, actually, when I'm using my hazard flashers in that torrential rain, I'm *correctly* signaling that I'm *traveling much slower than other traffic*. That's what -Virgil- said to do:
    Quote Originally Posted by jaycee88 View Post
    Turn on the hazards?
    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    Yes, and slow way down.
    and that's what I'm saying to do. Obviously, one shouldn't cruise around at clear-weather speeds in a monsoon, having turned on their hazard flashers.
    Last edited by Alaric Darconville; 02-15-2018 at 09:20 AM.

  30. #30

    Default Re: This is why we need REAR fog lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaric Darconville View Post

    Have you tried not following too closely? As far as "eye level", there is some amount of latitude for mounting heights
    But usually they're closer to the 250mm height than as high up as 1 or 1.2m.
    This has nothing to do with following too closely. It's simply annoying at any distance, even when stopped.

    As per mounting height: You would be hard pressed today to find a modern vehicle in Europe that has a rear fog lamp mounted at a low height of 250mm. That would have been true of the 1970's, when the fog lamp was mounted below the rear bumper, but today's cars all resemble miniature suv's, with rear lamp clusters all mounted at least halfway up the rear quarter panel. Just for the hell of it, I went out and measured my van and my wife's car. The van - Renault Kangoo - has a rear fog light height of 1100mm. The car - Skoda Fabia - has a lamp height of 900mm. These heights now seem to be the new norm since all? rear fog lamps are integrated into the rear light clusters.

    But the problem isn't the lights, it's the misuse of them that bothers me.

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