Question about voltage vs amps

RandyJMP

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There is probably already an answer to this somewhere but I'm not really sure what to search for so please forgive me. I have an old LumaHunter / LPower MRV (but it could be anything) that takes 2 CR123A batteries. These are 3.0V each and 1400mAh each. For the first time, I tried a single 18650 in it, which is 3.7V and 3000mAh.

On the one hand, I have 6V and 2800mAh but on the other, only 3.7V but 3000mAh. Subjectively at least, there was no difference in brightness.

The reason I tried this after all these years is that I'm buying some rechargeable 18650s and a charger, figured maybe I'd buy a few more.

So, since I'm dense on this electrical stuff, can someone explain (briefly) why this is, and is there any downside (or upside) to using one 18650 over two CR123As?

Thanks

Randy
 

Modernflame

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Welcome to the forum.

If you put batteries in series, the voltage stacks, but the capacity does not. In other words, 2xCR123's have a combined voltage of approximately 6v, but a capacity of 1400 mAh. There are lot of flashlights that can use either, and function more or less the same on 6v and 4v. However, since the 18650 has more than double the capacity, run times are generally much longer. An 18650 will also be able to sustain a much higher current draw. CR123's shouldn't be pushed much harder than 1.5A, although they can sustain short bursts of perhaps 3A. On the other hand, some 18650's can sustain 15A, depending on chemistry.

18650 Advantages:Superior capacity. Superior current draw. Rechargeability. Go green.

CR123 Advantages: Simplicity. Tolerance for extreme temperatures. Long shelf life.
 

dgbrookman

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The rule is fairly simple:

If you connect two batteries in series, the voltages add together (but the capacities don't).

If you connect two batteries in parallel, the capacities add together (but the voltages don't).
 

Timothybil

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It sounds like the LED/driver combo in your light is pretty forgiving. Some combinations are not so forgiving, usually this results in a loss of brightness with the LiIon cell. If you were doing this in an incandescent lamp you would definitely notice the differrece, since incandescent bulbs are designed to work at a given voltage, and don't do well otherwise.
 

idleprocess

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Watt-hours (W-H) is another way to look at things. Your 123As are 1400mAh (1.4 A-H) * 3V or 4.2 w-h ... times two for 8.4 w-h. Your 18650 is 3000mAh (3 A-H) * 3.6V or 10.8 w-h - an appreciable bump in stored energy.
 

Curious_character

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The length of time your light can run at a given brightness depends on the energy in the cell(s). If you have more than one cell, either in series or parallel, the total energy available is the sum of the energies that all the cells contain. Think of a battery as a tank of gas, which also contains a fixed amount of energy. Two tanks of the same size, twice the energy. Take it out fast or slow, you can in theory get the same amount of energy out of a given volume of gas.

The energy is the power times the time, which is the voltage times the current times the time. The current times the time is the "capacity", so for example the energy in a 3000mAh, 3.7 volt Li-ion cell is about 3.7 * 3000 = 11,100 mWh or 11.1 watt-hours. I say "about" because a number of factors modify this some -- the battery capacity is less when you consume the energy at a higher rate (discharge at a higher current), and the voltage isn't fixed at 3.7 or any other value but drops as the battery discharges. But it'll get you in the ballpark. So you can see that two non-rechargeable 1500mAh CR123A cells would have a bit less energy than a 3000mAh 18650 because the voltage of each of the CR123A cells is lower than the 18650 due to different chemistry. The practical effect of this depends on how efficiently the energy is extracted and converted to what the LED needs by the electronic circuitry in the flashlight. Decent flashlights usually have switching regulators which maintain about the same efficiency over a pretty wide range of voltages.

I've found that most of the flashlights I have that use either an 18650 or two CR123As have a buck type regulator. This requires the battery voltage to be a bit higher than the LED forward voltage of around 3-2-3.5 volts. A single 18650 reaches this level well before it's fully discharged, causing the regulator to quit working and the LED current to begin dropping. A few "high voltage" 18650 cells (ones that can be safely charged to 4.35 volts) stay above this level longer during the discharge period, but most will cause the light to begin dimming before all the the energy is extracted from the cell. This doesn't happen when two CR123A cells are used, because the series voltage never drops that low. That's the main possible down side to using a single 18650 cell, but it's not a problem if you can recharge the cell before it's more than partially discharged or if the dimming isn't a problem. It's often hard to detect even a 50% reduction in light level, and it's virtually unnoticeable if it happens slowly.

A very few lights seem to have a buck-boost regulator that can maintain the proper LED current as the battery voltage drops to, and below, the LED voltage. But these regulators are more complex and generally less efficient so they don't seem to be commonly used in flashlights.

c_c
 

RandyJMP

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Thanks again. Seems like battery choice is a bit more complicated than I realized. Related question, I've purchased a Convoy L6 that requires 2 26650 5200mAh batteries, but noticed there are now 6000mAh 26650s available. Should I go for the higher rated battery?
 

Curious_character

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The short answer is probably not.

If the new batteries actually are 6000 mAh and your existing ones are really 5200 mAh, you'd probably see an increase in run time to about 6000/5200 ~1.15 of what you have now, or only about 15% longer. But as you say, it's more complicated that you might think:
1. Battery (and flashlight) specifications are often exaggerated, sometimes laughably so. You can generally trust name brand cell and flashlight manufacturers, but not the others. A few of the reliable cell manufacturers are Sony, Sanyo/Panasonic, and LG, and vendors like Orbtronic that repackage and sell name brand cells. If the "ratings" you quote come from others, all bets are off.
2. The capacity is specified for only one, low, discharge rate (current). Cells vary a great deal in what they can deliver at the typically higher currents demanded by flashlights. An incredibly useful and eye-opening resource is http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common26650comparator.php. There's also an equivalent site for 18650 cells. (Replace "26650" with "18650" in the URL.)

c_c
 

idleprocess

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.A very few lights seem to have a buck-boost regulator that can maintain the proper LED current as the battery voltage drops to, and below, the LED voltage. But these regulators are more complex and generally less efficient so they don't seem to be commonly used in flashlights.

I have two multi-chemistry Manker lights that are almost certainly buck-boost as a helpful alignment of how the LED and cell voltages line up: boost for NiMH, buck for Li-ion. I haven't tried alkalines, but a fresh out of the pack Li-primary AA metering at >2V won't light up the single-cell model - presumably some combination of dead spot between the two modes of operation and a means of protecting Li-ion cells from over-discharge.

Manker is far from the only company offering such lights so I suspect they might not be common but aren't rare either.
 

RandyJMP

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Curious character, interesting site, thanks. The batteries I've been looking at are from Keeppower mostly.
 

Curious_character

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I don't have any experience with Keeppower but I see they sell good quality name brand unprotected cells. They probably add protection modules to them to sell as their own brand of protected cells, like Orbtronic and I'm sure some others do, and put their name on some good quality unprotected cells. (I don't know if AW is still around, but that's also what he did.) I'd feel confident using Keeppower cells.

c_c
 

Timothybil

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Thanks again. Seems like battery choice is a bit more complicated than I realized. Related question, I've purchased a Convoy L6 that requires 2 26650 5200mAh batteries, but noticed there are now 6000mAh 26650s available. Should I go for the higher rated battery?
The question you need to ask is 'How important is that little bit of increase in capacity to what I am going to be using the cell for?' If it is a situation where an extra few minutes of run time is critical, then try them. Otherwise, if you do the math, the increase in capacity percentage wise is probably a good deal less than the increase in the price of the cells. Cells with leading edge capacities are always going to demand a premium price, and to my mind, the small increase in capacity isn't worth the large increase in price.

Let's look at your example. The new cells offer an 800mAh increase in capacity, a roughly 15% increase. If the price difference is greater than that 15%, then you need to seriously ask yourself is the extra expense worth the money. My experience has been that by spending a little bit more than the price percentage increase, I can buy two of the lower capacity cells. YMMV
 

RandyJMP

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I ended up ordering the standard batteries from Orbtronic. Price was comparable to Aliexpress. Thanks again all!
 
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