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Thread: Manufacturers still don't get it

  1. #1

    Crazy Manufacturers still don't get it

    the only reason why Emisar D4 has so much success is the ramping ui.
    People want a simple and versatile ui, they don't want to memorize 10 modes, double, tripple clicks, H1, H2, M3 and whatever and not even be able to have the level they need.
    Manufacturers just don't seem to get this. They are still making lights with stupid UI instead of all switching to ramping

  2. #2

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    the only reason why Emisar D4 has so much success is the ramping ui.
    People want a simple and versatile ui, they don't want to memorize 10 modes, double, tripple clicks, H1, H2, M3 and whatever and not even be able to have the level they need.
    Manufacturers just don't seem to get this. They are still making lights with stupid UI instead of all switching to ramping
    If I am forced to choose only one UI, it would be the constantly variable magnetic ring. I think its brilliant and I wish ALL my lights had it.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    you mean like acebeam k70? it still has only 5 modes, but i agree it's still better than single button without ramping

  4. #4

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    People want a simple and versatile ui, they don't want to memorize 10 modes, double, tripple clicks, H1, H2, M3 and whatever and not even be able to have the level they need
    I don't want all of those extra modes either. But, some people want all of that customization. But, a lot of people do want that. Otherwise, they wouldn't be manufacturing and selling lights with those features. It just happens that right now there is a market for it. If/When that market dries up, manufacturers will switch back to simplicity or focus on other features. Hopefully that happens soon.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    the only reason why Emisar D4 has so much success is the ramping ui.
    People want a simple and versatile ui, they don't want to memorize 10 modes, double, tripple clicks, H1, H2, M3 and whatever and not even be able to have the level they need.
    Manufacturers just don't seem to get this. They are still making lights with stupid UI instead of all switching to ramping



    Bold statement calling major flashlight manufacturers stupid such as zebralight for using a complex but intuitive UI. There must be a demand for the user interfaces that are built into the flashlights. You're statement which sounds like an opinion not a actualization doesn't hold much water if you don't choose you're words more carefully ank.
    Last edited by DIPSTIX; 03-02-2018 at 08:03 AM.
    Searching for enlightenment.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Ramping is cool for the first hour, then it loses its novelty.

    I do agree though that I like lights with no more than 3 modes-- low,mid-high. (Even better if I can customize those modes with double, triple clicks, etc).

  7. #7

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Comparing multiple modes with ramping is like comparing windows 3.1 with windows 7. There's no comparison. Ramping is such a huge step ahead that all flashlights should have it by now.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    As an electrician, Iím using a flashlight in one of two ways. Iím either using it for general constant illumination while working, in which case I donít mind a quick navigation through a few modes. Or Iím using it to explore during layout or estimation, in which case Iím turning it on and off repeatedly and quickly as I wander around, and all I want is instant medium/high from one motion of the hand. Quick on, quick off, give me useful illumination now.

    My opinion is agreeable to the OP, not that the manufacturers are idiots, but that I have no practical need in my day to day actual use of flashlights for extra clicking through fancy modes to do my job. And no use whatsoever for strobe/sos. I will even decline to purchase a torch based solely on its having a complicated ui.

    I am however delighted that some manufacturers are allowing us to program our ui. That I like, because then I can make it do what I want, rather than being a waking customer demo.

  9. #9
    Flashaholic* The_Driver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Ramping has downsides too. In my eyes the biggest one is that you never know the runtime of the light when it's not at 100% or 1%. Sometimes one needs lights for a specific (often minimum) amount of time before changing the battery or recharging it is possible. With a ramping U.I. you could only guess how much runtime you will get. With a Zebralight or similar one can set the brightest mode possible while still getting the runtime one needs.

    Setting a light to a specific bightness is also not possible for the same reason.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    the only reason why Emisar D4 has so much success is the ramping ui.
    People want a simple and versatile ui, they don't want to memorize 10 modes, double, tripple clicks, H1, H2, M3 and whatever and not even be able to have the level they need.
    Manufacturers just don't seem to get this. They are still making lights with stupid UI instead of all switching to ramping
    Ramping... I assume you mean "click and hold to increase/decrease brightness"? That's a poor UI design because it's way too easy to overshoot your desired brightness level plus the inconvenience of the lag time to reach the brightness you want. Direct access to preset levels with a series of simple clicks and/or a physical dial are vastly superior in almost every way.
    Last edited by the.Mtn.Man; 03-02-2018 at 09:34 AM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    There are lots of different UIs that cater to lots of different preferences. There's no shortage of choice out there so I don't think it's a major issue for multi-clicks to be a common UI.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by lightseeker2009 View Post
    If I am forced to choose only one UI, it would be the constantly variable magnetic ring. I think its brilliant and I wish ALL my lights had it.
    I agree. It is my favorite. Only need one hands to operate.No searching for switch!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    the only reason why Emisar D4 has so much success is the ramping ui.
    People want a simple and versatile ui, they don't want to memorize 10 modes, double, tripple clicks, H1, H2, M3 and whatever and not even be able to have the level they need.
    Manufacturers just don't seem to get this. They are still making lights with stupid UI instead of all switching to ramping
    We all have different preferences.I could NOT imagine every flashlights UI being the same, neither do the manufacturers.

    It would be NARROW minded and there would be no versatility if they were all to your desires or mine for that matter. Freedom of choice is a gift!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    ramping is only viable in fet driven unregulated drivers.

    It has a main drawback, apart from the low efficiency: you can't measure how much runtime you will have

    It's way better a fully regulated driver, with 4 o 5 well spaced modes

  15. #15
    Flashaholic* hiuintahs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Luckily there are a lot of choices for everyone to meet the various personalities and likes. Not having one light fit all needs means you have to have more than one flashlight.

    Through the years I have discovered what I like and don't. My desire for purchases has waned a lot because of not liking what I consider lights becoming too fancy.

    I like the variable ring lights more than those that have a button where you click and hold to ramp. But I'm not sure I would want the majority of my lights as variable adjust. The magnetic variable ring lights tend to not be as efficient from what I've seen........but for those that like them, you can overlook that.

    I agree with twistedraven where no more than 3 modes is adequate for lights in the under 500 lumen range. Definitely if there is a strobe/sos it needs to be hidden. I liked the Quark Tactical with 2 modes where you set the output from their choice of available levels.

    Light needs to start out on low or at least have memory and advance upward. Don't like the recently released lights from Jetbeam that advance downward. Also don't like the lights that have a low mode that is more like medium in the 30 to 80 lumen area.

    I have no single electronic switched lights aside from a couple of headlamps with fairly simple UI. I have never been a fan of single electronic switched lights or of built in chargers.

    I look at the new releases but if it doesn't knock my socks off, or greatly improve what I already have, then I pass.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Can't help replying. OP should understand everyone has their own preferences, surprisingly.
    Read the other thread about what is your favorite UI and see how different people think and feel.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by the.Mtn.Man View Post
    Ramping... I assume you mean "click and hold to increase/decrease brightness"? That's a poor UI design because it's way too easy to overshoot your desired brightness level plus the inconvenience of the lag time to reach the brightness you want. Direct access to preset levels with a series of simple clicks and/or a physical dial are vastly superior in almost every way.
    I agree entirely. I'm not a ramping fan. I like two stage gas pedal style, and selector ring best. Ramping isn't nearly as convenient for me. I don't like waiting to get the brightness I want. Doesn't make a HUGE difference, and I own many ramping lights. But, for someone to suggest that ramping is a far superior UI and all lights should use ramping is completely and utterly ridiculous. I am very glad manufacturers think so as well.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    Comparing multiple modes with ramping is like comparing windows 3.1 with windows 7. There's no comparison. Ramping is such a huge step ahead that all flashlights should have it by now.
    I can set my multi-mode flashlight to the desired output level before I even pull it out of the holster. There's no way I could do that with a ramping UI.

    To be fair, I've only tried 2 lights ramping UIs and that was several years ago. Perhaps the current crop of ramping UIs is better.

    --flatline

  19. #19

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    Comparing multiple modes with ramping is like comparing windows 3.1 with windows 7. There's no comparison. Ramping is such a huge step ahead that all flashlights should have it by now.
    I really wasn't sure where you were going with this analogy, because in my mind, ramping is the Windows 3.1 of flashlight design, although Windows 7 is pretty much trash in its own right, so the comparison falls a bit flat anyway.

    Of course if we were to follow through with this analogy then the HDS interface is like Linux because it's flexible and rock-solid stable.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Ramping is fun, but it's often difficult for me to choose the output I really want. Usually I overshoot or undershoot. To be fair, often the modes aren't exactly what I want either, but at least I know what I'm getting. With ramping, I never know what I'm going to end up with.

    You could make a light with a slower ramp (I have a couple of such lights), but then it's frustrating to wait until it finally ramps to where I want.

    A light like the BLF Q8 has nice ramping, though I think it seems better than it really is, because its mode groups are so horrible to use!

    A light with a few well-spaced modes is still my favorite kind of interface.

  21. #21
    *Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    the only reason why Emisar D4 has so much success is the ramping ui.
    People want a simple and versatile ui, they don't want to memorize 10 modes, double, tripple clicks, H1, H2, M3 and whatever and not even be able to have the level they need.
    Manufacturers just don't seem to get this. They are still making lights with stupid UI instead of all switching to ramping
    I bought a D4 in cyan with 219CT LEDs, not because it had a ramping UI, but because it looks neat (to me), has a lot of output in a small, pocketable package, has some interesting UI features, like the battery check, temp. control and lockout, can accommodate an 18350 cell, has a decent, inexpensive pocket clip for the 18650 body and was $47.40 shipped.

    I don't care about runtimes and if I did, I would just carry a spare cell/battery.

    Chris
    Last edited by ChrisGarrett; 03-02-2018 at 02:39 PM.
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    the only reason why Emisar D4 has so much success is the ramping ui.
    People want a simple and versatile ui, they don't want to memorize 10 modes, double, tripple clicks, H1, H2, M3 and whatever and not even be able to have the level they need.
    Manufacturers just don't seem to get this. They are still making lights with stupid UI instead of all switching to ramping
    A few final thoughts. I may be the only one who says this, But I do not think I am the only one who feels this. Your OP has a hint of arrogance to it.

    ank I do not think your post was a prank but I am confident if we took it to the bank the funds would be depleted and the idea would be put in the tank, but I still thank you for the thread because ones opinions are never dead!


    It is ALL good!

  23. #23

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    it has nothing to do with personal preference, well at least not objective preferences, based on real life day to day use.
    people think they like multiple mode UIs because they are used to them and haven't tried ramping UIs long enough to see the light.

    it takes longer to reach the desired level? nah. you have last level memory so you get to your level instantly. and if you want to change it, it only takes like 1-2 seconds and gets faster with habit. so that's not a real argument against ramping.

    you don't know how long will your battery last? after you get used to it you will know

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    ^^^

    Every light we choose, every tint we choose, every UI we choose is a personal preference/choice.

    It is this simple.

    That is fine that it works for you and you like it. It does NOT mean everyone else will and that your choice is better. It is better for you.

    We can discuss this stuff forever. No one is right, it is a matter of preference.

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* Modernflame's Avatar
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    So, I guess on/off is out of style?
    ďMay it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.Ē
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Timely post. I've actually modified my E01 so that it INTUITIVELY KNOWS the EXACT amount of light that I need for a certain situation, and sets itself to that output before I give it a twist to turn on. The weird thing is...is that it always seems to turn on right around 13 lumens or so.....and it is enough.

  27. #27

    Default Manufacturers still don't get it

    Iíll chime in,

    Over the years you come to expect one thing only from an incan...

    Itís on and itís off! Which has its merits.

    Yes there are soft starts and some have low and high modes but for the most part, itís ON and OFF.


    Then came LEDs and real choices for output levels and options. Even tints and colors...


    I have my favorites, here goes...

    Left front pocket back up light Iíve really grown to love the Zebralights, I have one for off duty carry and one while Iím on duty, differences are the max outputs when clicked on.
    My E1D has been displaced for now by the ZLs.

    Duty light, I like two. My Surefire Lawman because the tail cap is always high, and the head switch is one of three programs, I love the low, med, high with memory. Itís actually a great tool.

    Other favorite duty light is the MD2 HOT from Malkoff, low and high only. And itís smaller and more compact when your on the beat and weight becomes an issue.

    If I need a search light I grab the first Gen M6LT from my bag as itís flat out a high only search light.

    Clearing a building, I grab the MagCharger with Malkoff XM-L2 in it.


    I feel your pain OP in that I have certain lights I want to carry all the time but just canít deal with some of the UIs.

    I love my old Surefire Ultra with the ring. And I purchased the newer one with the higher out put but the head is pretty large and I havenít grown used to it for pocket carry yet.


    On another note, I have grown to really like and appreciate the interface Surefire has with some tailcaps that with a hard press give you max. I recently got a great deal on a UB3T I think itís called and I LOVE the UI. Just set the low mode by the ring that you need and hold the light as usual. Need the high just squeeze harder and there you go, release the grip some and back to low. Or I like to twist the cap down to engage low and if I need more I press the tailcap harder.

    I also recently got a TK75R I think, itís a soda can light with 9000 lumens on high. 100 on low, only reason I decided to try it was that itís a portable battery pack. I can leave in the camping rig and we always have a light with more than enough power and can charge a phone if needed. However it needs a dedicated high mode only button without holding something down and waiting for high mode. But thatís just my take on its design. Guess Iím to used to lights with switches on the tailcaps, lol... In its defense itís my first soda can light so Iím learning.

    I do want another soda can type light but one with 4-18650s that way I can charge them and if I need to cannibalize that light I have four extra cells.

    Anyways, I think the important thing to remember is that we have loads of options. There are manufacturers of lights that I wonít go near because I canít stand nor need or find ďcoolĒ their designs or workings. Doesnít make them bad to me, just not worth me giving them my money.


    Thanks for ďlisteningĒ

    GB
    Last edited by Greenbean; 03-02-2018 at 07:54 PM.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    I love these discussions where the the talk continues for ever about something totally subjective....
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
    -- Albert Einstein

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* KITROBASKIN's Avatar
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Another opinion:
    When Flashlights are tools, then the job defines what user interface works most effectively, and ramping may work or may be cumbersome, or dangerous. Anyone who says one particular UI is superior for any and every job, lacks experience and/or judgement.

    Flashlights used recreationally are a different story and everyone is entitled to any opinion for any reason. Arguing or making broad claims fills servers with steaming hot piles of pancakes.

    Zebralight has become a comfortable, long-term option for many of us. The Emisar (electronic switch) ramping is just so nice. The Crescendo driver in, for example, a PFlexPRO (ramping for a mechanical switch) is nice but frankly more clicks (actually half presses for a reverse clicky switch). For serious use though, a 1, 2, or maybe 3 mode driver that can be programmed for the precise amount of light for each mode could reign supreme (if it actually, reliably, works), but many people can find a somewhat simple flashlight to fully serve their tool needs, and good on that!
    Last edited by KITROBASKIN; 03-02-2018 at 11:51 PM.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    Comparing multiple modes with ramping is like comparing windows 3.1 with windows 7. There's no comparison. Ramping is such a huge step ahead that all flashlights should have it by now.
    Actually. Comparing multiple modes with ramping is like comparing windows with Linux. Almost all users of Linux will say itís superior to windows but thereís a reason why windows holds like 80% of the market share.
    Who needs to see the light at the end of the tunnel when you have friends on CPF?
    My flashlight videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...9TIYcGeuBXa5m0

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