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Thread: Manufacturers still don't get it

  1. #31

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by jabe1 View Post
    I love these discussions where the the talk continues for ever about something totally subjective....
    Whatís wrong with sharing and discussing opinions? Isnít that how viewpoints are arrived at and focused?

  2. #32

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    the only reason why Emisar D4 has so much success is the ramping ui.
    People want a simple and versatile ui, they don't want to memorize 10 modes, double, tripple clicks, H1, H2, M3 and whatever and not even be able to have the level they need.
    Manufacturers just don't seem to get this. They are still making lights with stupid UI instead of all switching to ramping
    Nope. The only reason I wanted a D4 was because it appeared to be a decently constructed Nichia light that put out more than a few hundred lumens. I considered the ramping interface a negative.

    Now that I have it, I do agree it's a very well done interface, and ramping has a definitely place in the flashlight world, but discrete levels also have a place. Very often, I want a specific, known level of light, and an easy way to get there.

    I expect ramping to become more common, but I don't expect discrete modes to simply die out. We each have different preferences.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Best thing about D4 to me is the firmware is open source, relatively easy to modify, and relatively easy to flash. No UI is going to be perfect for everyone, but if its easy flash then it doesnt' matter, everyone can run their own perfect firmware.

    Main things I dislike about D4 UI is mode memory is just awful, and then having to ramp all the time sucks.. its slow and imprecise.

    But luckily its all easy to change, so I can have what I think is perfect UI, D4 w/presets and momentary turbo:

    Presets: LOW/NORMAL/HIGH/TURBO


    No auto-saved mode-memory but LOW/NORMAL/HIGH levels can all be explictly saved.


    From off:
    LongPress -> Turn on at LOW and rampÖ
    Click -> Turn on at NORMAL.
    Click-Press -> Momentary TURBO while Press is held, then back to off.
    Click-Click -> Turn on to HIGH.


    From on:
    Click -> Turn off.
    LongPress -> Ramp up.
    Click-Press -> Momentary TURBO while Press is held, then back previous level.
    Click-Click -> Jump to HIGH unless in HIGH then jump to NORMAL.
    Click-Click-Press -> Jump to LOW and ramp.
    Click-Click-Click -> Save current level to active preset.


    (https://github.com/bexamous/flashlig...RampingPresets)

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Obvious troll is obvious. Ank believes his opinion is the only valid one and anyone that differs just hasn't done it his way long enough or the right way. There are many many people that have different needs than yours and the manufacturers know this and build lights accordingly.

    Emisar has done so well not just because of the UI but because they have delivered a product with performance and features above their price point. An exceptional thrower an outstanding flood light and one in between plus using different materials and lego ability. I like my D1S but the one thing I would change would be the UI.

    I know more need an infinitely variable output than I need another hole in my head. Even on my magnetic control ring lights I have a tendency to use full bright, low, or right in the middle. Three modes does it for me. But I can see how someone else would like the variability but it is not for me and I would be very disappointed if all lights had the same UI.

    In fact my favorite UI is the Zebralight UI. I can reach many of the outputs from off. Many times the last mode I used is high but now I'm home and don't want to disturb the family and I want low. If I have to blast 3000 lumens then hold a button for several seconds to ramp down that would be very annoying to me.
    My Lights: EDC; Nitecore EC1, ZLSC52, Quark Mini AAW, Preon P2
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  5. #35
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Of course depending how 'troll' is defined, just thinking not so much troll, more like cocksure swagger about a product that is worth getting enthusiastic about; Kind of like the recent thread saying no one is making tactical flashlights anymore because if it isn't 80 lumens/one mode, it is NOT tactical. Nevertheless, some members come up with some useful responses that make it all worthwhile, don't you think?

    bexamous has a great thing going there. Is battery check and thermal control still intact? What equipment is needed and how does a person easily flash this UI onto a D1S and D4 TiCu?

  6. #36

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by badtziscool View Post
    Actually. Comparing multiple modes with ramping is like comparing windows with Linux. Almost all users of Linux will say itís superior to windows but thereís a reason why windows holds like 80% of the market share.
    McDonald's is one of the most profitable and popular restaurants in the world. Must be on account of their delicious, high-quality food.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by Modernflame View Post
    So, I guess on/off is out of style?
    Yup. Just wait though, fashion is cyclical and eventually retro will be trendy again.

    Multiple modes? Ramping? Holds little interest for me. While many people place a value on the versatility and fun factor different light levels have, what I want is a dead nuts reliable torch with a good balance of brightness and runtime. The Malkoff MD2 or a SureFire with an M61 head is pretty much perfect for me.

    It's a very broad generalization to say manufacturers don't get it. From what I can see the market has a light for everyone. For the cheap bastards and for those with deep pockets. Everything from duty lights to pocket jewelry. They have lights at technology's cutting edge as well as for Luddites like me. If you can't find what you want, perhaps you're not trying hard enough.

  8. #38
    Flashaholic* ronniepudding's Avatar
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by KITROBASKIN View Post
    Another opinion:
    When Flashlights are tools, then the job defines what user interface works most effectively, and ramping may work or may be cumbersome, or dangerous. Anyone who says one particular UI is superior for any and every job, lacks experience and/or judgement.

    Flashlights used recreationally are a different story and everyone is entitled to any opinion for any reason.
    ...
    ^^^
    This resonates positively with me. My collection has lots of different UIs, and I can very reasonably prefer UI #1 for walking in the woods, UI #2 for working on the car, #3 for reading a book using a headlamp, etc. If I was in a high stress line of work such as police officer or EMT or firefighter, those situations would have their own unique lighting requirements, for which some UIs would be inappropriate.

    The form factor and cell voltage also determines the UI... in a small AAA light that only goes up to 80 lumens, designed to be as small and lightweight as possible, a simple 2-3 mode UI is just right ó but that wouldnít work well at all for controlling a bright, multicell thrower.

    Ramping, and Ďinfinitelyí variable magnetic control rings sound great in theory, but Iíve not had any luck with either UI on samples Ive tried. Sounds like the Emisar D4 might be different, and worth looking into... but that can be stated in a positive way, without bashing every other light and manufacturer in the process.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    The LED flashlight has become like adjustable wrenches, pliers and vice grips.

    No one is perfect for everybody, but they sure are handy at times.
    John 3:16

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by ank View Post
    it has nothing to do with personal preference, well at least not objective preferences, based on real life day to day use.
    people think they like multiple mode UIs because they are used to them and haven't tried ramping UIs long enough to see the light.

    it takes longer to reach the desired level? nah. you have last level memory so you get to your level instantly. and if you want to change it, it only takes like 1-2 seconds and gets faster with habit. so that's not a real argument against ramping.

    you don't know how long will your battery last? after you get used to it you will know

    Only on the internet........
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  11. #41
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    The few ramping UI lights I've sampled in the past didn't do much for me. I'd be involved in a task and forget if it was going to ramp up or down and, more often than not, I would overshoot the desired level. They were also slower. I can bump a reverse clicky and get the required output much, much faster. To each their own...
    I'm not quite as iliterate as my typos would suggest.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    I agree with the OP. Manufacturers try to meet all market demands by mostly making "things" (not just lights) that force as many "features" in as cheaply as possible and you end up with most people settling rather than getting what they would choose were it available.

    I have never met a single person who wanted 3 strobe modes or even strobe at all in a light other than pilots/coastguarsdmen with clear use cases who aren't buying zebralights or the like anyway for such critical use. I have never met a single person who wanted to be stuck going through levels to reach what they need. I know this is "anecdata" but I am old and my experience has been consistent enough to show me a pattern.

    Momentary...On...off....high low ring is my perfect UI but it's only availble in specific lights/formats from specific manufacturers and at great cost. I know others need or want more but I don't believe MOST people want complex interfaces with al the clutter. It's what we settle for because of availability which is falsley perceived as "demand" and ends up with a race to the bottom. Same with phones or anything else. I always feel like I am forced to settle for a bunch of garbage I don't want to get the things I need. If what I want was available I'd buy it...but it's not...so they count my purchase of their stuff as "what the consumer wants", but it just isn't.
    Last edited by hap124; 03-04-2018 at 01:52 PM.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by the.Mtn.Man View Post
    McDonald's is one of the most profitable and popular restaurants in the world. Must be on account of their delicious, high-quality food.
    Exactly!!! Not bc of their high quality gourmet food but itís fast easy cheap and consistent. Which is probably why the majority of the market wants multi modes vs infinitely variable. One press one level. Two presses another level. Etc. And thatís it. And no doubt that I love variable UIs. Iím looking for a Nitecore D10 right this moment. Itís the one that started it all for me. I definitely wish there were more variable options out there but just because I and the OP want it doesnít mean that the manufacturers donít get it. They absolutely get it.
    Who needs to see the light at the end of the tunnel when you have friends on CPF?
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  14. #44

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by badtziscool View Post
    Exactly!!! Not bc of their high quality gourmet food but itís fast easy cheap and consistent. Which is probably why the majority of the market wants multi modes vs infinitely variable. One press one level. Two presses another level. Etc. And thatís it. And no doubt that I love variable UIs. Iím looking for a Nitecore D10 right this moment. Itís the one that started it all for me. I definitely wish there were more variable options out there but just because I and the OP want it doesnít mean that the manufacturers donít get it. They absolutely get it.
    I would disagree that multimode flashlights are akin to McDonald's in this analogy. People don't use multimode flashlights because they're "fast, cheap, and easy" (but terrible in all other respects) like a Happy Meal, or Microsoft Windows, but because multimode is, in fact, excellent UI design. If people can double-click a mouse or their laptop trackpad then they can operate a multimode flashlight; it's consistent, predictable, and reliable. Ramping, I think, is too fiddly and imprecise unless the hardware interface was changed to include more than one button, or perhaps a rocker-switch because a single-button ramping light like the venerable Nitecore D10 is not any easier to operate than a multimode light with its double-click to go straight to minimum, double-click+hold to go straight to maximum, click and hold to ramp... oops, wrong way... let me click and hold again to go the other direction...

    A ramping UI is fine for people who like them, but to suggest they are inherently superior to a traditional multimode UI? No way.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by the.Mtn.Man View Post
    I would disagree that multimode flashlights are akin to McDonald's in this analogy. People don't use multimode flashlights because they're "fast, cheap, and easy" (but terrible in all other respects) like a Happy Meal, or Microsoft Windows, but because multimode is, in fact, excellent UI design. If people can double-click a mouse or their laptop trackpad then they can operate a multimode flashlight; it's consistent, predictable, and reliable. Ramping, I think, is too fiddly and imprecise unless the hardware interface was changed to include more than one button, or perhaps a rocker-switch because a single-button ramping light like the venerable Nitecore D10 is not any easier to operate than a multimode light with its double-click to go straight to minimum, double-click+hold to go straight to maximum, click and hold to ramp... oops, wrong way... let me click and hold again to go the other direction...

    A ramping UI is fine for people who like them, but to suggest they are inherently superior to a traditional multimode UI? No way.
    FWIW you're 2nd person I see mention the inconsistency of ramping direction.. yeah IMO any memory sort of stuff is awful in UIs.. it makes it less predictable. Same issue with mode memory.

    But you can do ramping UI without that, eg Andķril (http://budgetlightforum.com/node/56105) is basically re-implementation of D4's UI except it uses press and hold to ramp up, and click then hold to ramp down. Predictable and easy.

    Also FWIW my modified D4 UI I linked earlier I also changed it to always start to ramp up, except when you initially switch to high preset it'll default to going down. Always starting ramping up is at least consistent, but that means to go down you always gotta start going up and then reverse.. you can kinda get good at it so you don't visiually see light get brighter before going down, but its still slow having to do that. Entire point of the chagnes though were to make ramping less imporatnt. And momentary turbo, espeically on D4 where you can only use turbo for seconds, I find to be vastly more useful than having a shortcut to start ramping down.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by bexamous View Post
    But you can do ramping UI without that, eg Andķril (http://budgetlightforum.com/node/56105) is basically re-implementation of D4's UI except it uses press and hold to ramp up, and click then hold to ramp down. Predictable and easy.
    Which doesn't really make the operation significantly different from that of a standard multimode flashlight.

    What was the point of this thread again?

  17. #47
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Quote Originally Posted by the.Mtn.Man View Post
    Which doesn't really make the operation significantly different from that of a standard multimode flashlight.

    What was the point of this thread again?
    To argue personal preference about how one size fits all which is silly as by definition......
    The TK20. Yes it still rocks.

  18. #48
    *Flashaholic* easilyled's Avatar
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    I think that my next UI design principal will be to link the electric signal from the user's brain to that in the driver chip thus activating the user's desired level without the need for a physical switch. Any takers?
    We are all flotsam and jetsam being carried by a relentless tide towards our ultimate fate!

  19. #49

    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    Beat ya to it sir......post #26
    Quote Originally Posted by gurdygurds View Post
    Timely post. I've actually modified my E01 so that it INTUITIVELY KNOWS the EXACT amount of light that I need for a certain situation, and sets itself to that output before I give it a twist to turn on. The weird thing is...is that it always seems to turn on right around 13 lumens or so.....and it is enough.

  20. #50
    *Flashaholic* easilyled's Avatar
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    ^ We can go into a partnership!
    We are all flotsam and jetsam being carried by a relentless tide towards our ultimate fate!

  21. #51
    Enlightened
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    Default Re: Manufacturers still don't get it

    I'd love to have a ramping UI on my lights if it they had displays for the power level. I like to know how long my lights will run on each level. But I agree, its really annoying having to learn a new UI for each light, even if you only own a few.

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