NITECORE -- Keep Innovating        
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 114

Thread: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

  1. #31
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    1,008

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    More rumors (from DEC 2017):

    ...According to etnews (no affiliation), Panasonic has sold most of its battery capacity to Tesla, leaving other companies banging on Samsung SDI, LG Chemicals, and Murata’s respective doors...

    ...“It is impossible to purchase cylindrical batteries within Japan and we were even notified by Panasonic that they are not going to sell cylindrical batteries anymore,” said a representative for a Japanese battery distributor. “It has come to a point where we cannot even purchase products from Samsung and LG and even products from Samsung and LG that were produced in China.”...
    https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...ttery-shortage

  2. #32

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    ^^^

    My guess based on Jon's[L.Ionwholesale] information and post like the one above that I have read, is that they are NOT rumors.

  3. #33
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    1,008

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/engli...y-lines-cement

    ...[March 1, 2018] Samsung SDI will invest several hundreds of billions of Korean won to build a production line for small-sized secondary batteries. It is analyzed that the decision was made while taking into consideration the fact that Japan's Panasonic, the world's largest battery maker, is extremely busy supplying batteries to Tesla for its electric vehicles so cannot meet other demand. The move has been seen as a gambit of Samsung SDI, which has the largest market share in the small-sized battery market, to further shore up its leadership in the market. In the global small-sized battery market, Samsung SDI outclasses Panasonic in the market share...

    ...In particular, the small-sized cylindrical battery market is enjoying rapid growth. Cylindrical battery shipments, which stood at 1.9 billion units in 2014, were estimated at 3.3 billion units last year, recording a sharp rise. ...

  4. #34
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    1,008

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Looks to me like Panasonic will continue with cylindrical battery production, and will not be exiting that business. They do seem to lack adequate manufacturing capacity to meet global demand. Samsung (and LG) appear to be opening new manufacturing lines in Korea to take advantage of Panasonic's issues, and gain market share.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    That article i did read awhile back. This is a gamble though. So basically this is the same thing that is currently going with graphics cards. Shortage of them due to bitcoin. This just means people like us that buys cells are going to be in 2nd class.

    It all comes down to supply and demand and not phasing out. I was scared there for a second lol.

    This does however gives China an opportunity to take advantage of the situation at the moment. The worse that can happen is re-branded ultrafire cells XD lol.

    But in the end. Tesla is a gamble. Hopefully Panasonic and other good brand manufactures has a plan-B just in case.
    Last edited by MarioJP; 04-10-2018 at 10:26 AM.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    [QUOTE=RedLED;5197211]
    Quote Originally Posted by SubLGT View Post
    China, and Chinese companies, are being very aggressive about becoming the world's leader in battery manufacturing and research.

    Just one example:
    http://www.scmp.com/tech/science-res...tesla-capacity[/QUOTE
    We are 40 years head of China in batteries, don't worry about it.

    That's a pretty inaccurate comment.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by MarioJP View Post
    I'll still think that there won't be any issues of buying cells in the future and only going to get better as technology progresses.
    But anyways.

    I know keeping cells in the refrigerator slows down self-discharge, but wouldn't condensation be bad for them?
    Condensation from what? Condensation happens when warm hits cold, so only happens if you have them open and in the fridge already.

    Yes putting them in the fridge makes them last longer, much longer. Arguably you can put them into the freezer portion too. The chemical process will be slowed even more. Just give them time to warm before using.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by ssanasisredna View Post
    Condensation from what? Condensation happens when warm hits cold, so only happens if you have them open and in the fridge already.

    Yes putting them in the fridge makes them last longer, much longer. Arguably you can put them into the freezer portion too. The chemical process will be slowed even more. Just give them time to warm before using.
    Depending on the ambient humidity, you can get condensation from the air let in when you open the fridge door.

    I doubt it would be an issue though. Battery manufacturers seem not to recommend cold storage (Energizer FAQ), but their concern sounds speculative. Also, with alkaline batteries such as referenced in the link, a user pulling a cold battery out of the freezer and putting it in a high drain device would get terrible performance if it doesn't have time to warm up, and probably think the brand new battery is almost dead - Energizer obviously doesn't want that.

    I could hypothetically see leakage current through the condensation slowly draining them, but I've kept alkalines in the fridge for years without apparent issue. When I saw warnings against storing batteries in the fridge, I checked the oldest set in my fridge. I think it was nearly a decade old (spare alkalines go unused for a long time when all you use them for is remotes and other low drain devices), but still read close to 1.6V.

  9. #39
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,376

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by ssanasisredna View Post
    Condensation from what? Condensation happens when warm hits cold, so only happens if you have them open and in the fridge already.

    Yes putting them in the fridge makes them last longer, much longer. Arguably you can put them into the freezer portion too. The chemical process will be slowed even more. Just give them time to warm before using.
    I put them in freezer bags, along with a bit of silica gel, to prevent condensation if there is any. Even if there isn't any condensation in the refrigerator, it helps when I take them out in a couple of years to test them.

    I'm not sure if refrigeration will help or not, but I think the lower temperature should slow down chemical reactions which might age the cells.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    One question that, surprisingly hasn't come up yet... does this phasing out also affect the Eneloop line of batteries? AA's and AAA's are also cylindrical, aren't they?

  11. #41

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt_Woloch View Post
    One question that, surprisingly hasn't come up yet... does this phasing out also affect the Eneloop line of batteries? AA's and AAA's are also cylindrical, aren't they?
    Good question. I do not know. Liionwholesale ONLY sells Li. Ion batteries and that was the only chemistry he was referring to.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt_Woloch View Post
    One question that, surprisingly hasn't come up yet... does this phasing out also affect the Eneloop line of batteries? AA's and AAA's are also cylindrical, aren't they?
    There's no confirmed phase out of any Panasonic/Sanyo batteries.

    We're hearing this from a discount wholesaler. They probably are getting information from a commercial distributor. We don't know what Panasonic has actually told the distributor, but there is a limited amount of information on future plans they can tell distributors without first notifying shareholders, which would then make it public info. So we're hearing this 4th hand.

    In fact, Panasonic's latest annual report says they plan to continue increasing battery production to remain the top global producer.

    Given the scale of their business relationship with an industrial customer who plans to within the next year or two be using over 1 billion cells a year, I don't believe for one second that Panasonic is simply getting out of the cylindrical battery business. However, there's several things going on that could create such an impression:

    1.) Rapidly growing battery demand means it is a lucrative market. That may mean some other company could seek to buy Panasonic's battery business from them. If the price their offering is high enough, Panasonic might be willing to sell for the cash to invest in other product sectors, rather than the one everybody already recognizes is growing. Technically this would mean Panasonic gets out of the business, but it also means their products remain in production, possibly under a new name. This wouldn't affect current supply.

    2.) Heavy demand in the EV industry especially means some battery types are not easily available other than in industrial quantities.

    3.) Small cylindrical cells are expected to be replaced in many applications in the long term by large prismatic cells. This is not happening yet, but some folks in the distribution chain may be prematurely assuming it's imminent.

    4.) Manufacturers are trying to discourage the sale of unprotected cells to consumers, because there is some liability in doing so, and they don't want to get sued for somebody abusing a cell and burning their house down or having a flashlight blow up while holding it in their teeth and dying (which happened with an off brand battery recently - EDIT - I may be incorrectly understanding this incident. See further posts).

    #2 and #4 both fit what IlluminationDomination has reported, but neither indicates Panasonic is actually phasing out of either cylindrical lithium-ion batteries, or NiMH.
    Last edited by iamlucky13; 04-11-2018 at 12:03 AM.

  13. #43
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,317

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by iamlucky13 View Post
    4.) Manufacturers are trying to discourage the sale of unprotected cells to consumers, because there is some liability in doing so, and they don't want to get sued for somebody abusing a cell and burning their house down or having a flashlight blow up while holding it in their teeth and dying (which happened with an off brand battery recently).
    Where did you find info on the type of battery in Caleb Joyner's flashlight? I didn't see any such info in a quick web search.

  14. #44
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,376

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    Where did you find info on the type of battery in Caleb Joyner's flashlight? I didn't see any such info in a quick web search.
    From the article, it doesn't sound like the flashlight's battery was to blame. It sounds like he shorted out the car's battery. That might have caused the flashlight to explode, though.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    Where did you find info on the type of battery in Caleb Joyner's flashlight? I didn't see any such info in a quick web search.
    Did I misunderstand the news reports? Was it not due to a venting battery bursting the flashlight body?

    Regardless, the basic point about discouraging consumer sales remains. I think it was one of your posts that introduced me to Sony's warning to resellers that represented the same concern.

  16. #46
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,317

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by iamlucky13 View Post
    Did I misunderstand the news reports? Was it not due to a venting battery bursting the flashlight body?
    What news reports do you refer to? None of the reports I saw gave any details about the batteries, so how did you infer that it was an
    "off brand" (Li-ion) battery? In fact none of the news reports gave enough details to convince me that the flashlight batteries were the source of the explosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by iamlucky13 View Post
    Regardless, the basic point about discouraging consumer sales remains. I think it was one of your posts that introduced me to Sony's warning to resellers that represented the same concern.
    Yes, I agree with the point you were making. I was just curious if you knew more details about that incident.

  17. #47
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    1,008

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    From a Nov 2017 article at Korea IT News:

    http://english.etnews.com/20171121200001

    ...Samsung SDI is going to greatly increase output of its cylindrical batteries in order to respond to rapid increase in demands from electric tool and electric vehicle manufacturers....According to industries on the 20th, Samsung SDI increased production capacity of its cylindrical batteries from 800 million in last year to about 1 billion in this year [2017]...

    ...said a representative for an industry: “Due to supply and demand for Panasonic’s cylindrical batteries being tight as it has secured entire supply of cylindrical batteries for Tesla’s electric vehicles, many companies are demanding cylindrical batteries from Samsung SDI.”...

    ...Samsung SDI is going to supply its 21700 cylindrical batteries to Tesla for its world’s biggest ESS project that is being established in Australia...Samsung SDI will supply 21700 batteries for Lucid Motors’ initial supply of 20,000 batteries in 2018....
    Last edited by SubLGT; 04-11-2018 at 03:32 PM.

  18. #48

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    What news reports do you refer to? None of the reports I saw gave any details about the batteries, so how did you infer that it was an
    "off brand" (Li-ion) battery? In fact none of the news reports gave enough details to convince me that the flashlight batteries were the source of the explosion.
    I apologize. I assumed it was the battery, but I don't have a source supporting that guess.

  19. #49
    Unenlightened
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    1

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    subscribed, this seems like a very interesting thread

  20. #50

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by equyst View Post
    subscribed, this seems like a very interesting thread


  21. #51

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    OK guys, Jon from LiionWholesale here. I was linked to this thread. Let me clarify a bit what I was saying.

    Panasonic is still making lithium ion batteries and will continue to do so, but nearly all of their production is now focused on Tesla and other automotive cells. Those automotive cells are very unlikely to get out onto the open market and also are unlikely to be suitable for flashlight use for various reasons. Mainly, many of them will be prismatic style, not cylindrical. Even the Tesla 2170 is not something I would ever recommend using outside of a system designed for it. So for the purposes of where flashlights are concerned, they seem to be phasing themselves out of the market.


    While they're still making small numbers of the other cells like the 18650's, they are focusing almost all production on automotive stuff. They are not making nearly enough of the other non-automotive cells to satisfy demand. Many of the non-automotive models are officially discontinued, but some are not, they just aren't making nearly enough of them. All will continue to become harder to get and therefore more expensive.


    This is not a rumor. We frequently have big Panasonic authorized battery pack makers coming to us for 18650 batteries now because they can't get them from Panasonic. I think things will mostly move to Samsung SDI and LG Chem for these industrial cells. Even now, those companies are a much better deal in almost all cases.

    Hope that clarifies things.

  22. #52

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt_Woloch View Post
    One question that, surprisingly hasn't come up yet... does this phasing out also affect the Eneloop line of batteries? AA's and AAA's are also cylindrical, aren't they?
    No, to my knowledge it doesn't affect that at all. We're talking about their industrial line of cells, not the consumer line like the Eneloop. I'm not as knowledgeable about their consumer market but I'd be surprised if they stopped selling those.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon-LiionWholesale View Post
    OK guys, Jon from LiionWholesale here. I was linked to this thread. Let me clarify a bit what I was saying.

    Panasonic is still making lithium ion batteries and will continue to do so, but nearly all of their production is now focused on Tesla and other automotive cells. Those automotive cells are very unlikely to get out onto the open market and also are unlikely to be suitable for flashlight use for various reasons. Mainly, many of them will be prismatic style, not cylindrical. Even the Tesla 2170 is not something I would ever recommend using outside of a system designed for it. So for the purposes of where flashlights are concerned, they seem to be phasing themselves out of the market.


    While they're still making small numbers of the other cells like the 18650's, they are focusing almost all production on automotive stuff. They are not making nearly enough of the other non-automotive cells to satisfy demand. Many of the non-automotive models are officially discontinued, but some are not, they just aren't making nearly enough of them. All will continue to become harder to get and therefore more expensive.


    This is not a rumor. We frequently have big Panasonic authorized battery pack makers coming to us for 18650 batteries now because they can't get them from Panasonic. I think things will mostly move to Samsung SDI and LG Chem for these industrial cells. Even now, those companies are a much better deal in almost all cases.

    Hope that clarifies things.
    Thanks for the clarification Jon.

  24. #54
    Flashaholic* MrAl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    3,126

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Hi,

    I guess we just go with the other manufacturers then. Come to think of it now, i dont think i have any Panasonic 18650's unless they were rebranded and so i cant tell. The Sony's are the best anyway, 30 amps :-)
    Take care,
    Al
    LED's vs Bulbs, the battle is on.
    My bumper sticker: "I Brake for LED's"
    To err is human, to theorize divine.

    Got Light?

  25. #55
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,317

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    I would not trust any claims on such matters unless they come directly from Panasonic. No doubt the industry is recently strongly driven by EV demands, and partnerships such as those between Tesla and Panasonic will affect short term supply. But don't expect to receive accurate information from rumor mills and small companies that supply hobbyists. Sometimes strategic decisions are not even revealed to major partners, so it would not be wise to assume that one can obtain accurate information many further levels down the supply chain.

  26. #56

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    ^^^

    We will see. We are all entitled to our opinion.

    No disrespect, However, I value Jons Opinion more than yours. He is involved directly with these manufacturers and I suspect you are not.

  27. #57
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,317

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminationDomination View Post
    However, I value Jons Opinion more than yours. He is involved directly with these manufacturers and I suspect you are not.
    What do you believe that "He is involved directly with these manufacturers"? Neither Panasonic nor any other top tier Li-ion manufacturer deal directly with small hobby suppliers.They are many levels further down the supply chain. So anything you hear at such levels should be taken with a grain of salt.

    I value facts - not opinions and rumors. This thread does not contain even a single verifiable fact on the matter - only unfounded speculation.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 04-20-2018 at 09:10 AM.

  28. #58

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    ^^^^

    I am not going to argue with you gauss. I browsed this forum for 5 years b/4 joining. I am VERY familiar w/ your interaction/tactics w/ HKJ, Administrators and the average Joe like me.

  29. #59

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluminationDomination View Post
    ^^^

    We will see. We are all entitled to our opinion.

    No disrespect, However, I value Jons Opinion more than yours. He is involved directly with these manufacturers and I suspect you are not.
    I apologize. I misspoke. What I meant to say is that I trust the INFORMATION Jon got more than G163's opinion.

  30. #60
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,317

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    But I gave no opinions above. I merely emphasized the point that there are no verifiable facts posted on this matter - only opinions and speculations by folks very far removed from the source (Panasonic).

    It is important to keep in mind that all sorts of marketing shenanigans can affect such matters. For example, if somewhere along the supply chain some vendor seeks to sway clients towards cells that are more profitable then they could exploit temporary shortages to their advantage by falsely spreading rumors that the shortages will be permanent. Clients far down the supply chain might have no clue that this was happening and may take them at their word (and may have no easy way to verify such claims).

    As such, it is wise to be a bit skeptical of such claims unless they are straight from the manufacturer (and verifiably so).

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •