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Thread: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

  1. #61
    Flashaholic* MrAl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    I would not trust any claims on such matters unless they come directly from Panasonic. No doubt the industry is recently strongly driven by EV demands, and partnerships such as those between Tesla and Panasonic will affect short term supply. But don't expect to receive accurate information from rumor mills and small companies that supply hobbyists. Sometimes strategic decisions are not even revealed to major partners, so it would not be wise to assume that one can obtain accurate information many further levels down the supply chain.
    Hi,

    It is nice to be sure, but sometimes we just cant be, so we might apply a confidence level indicator.
    I'd say i am around 60 percent that they might be phasing out the consumer end of the business. That's over 50 percent because they lost some contracts with clients in the past. It's not any higher however because they have such a good partnership with Tesla so they may convert some of that to the consumer end, especially if they end up with overruns. They are also BTW still for sale on many sites on the net.

    Of course we wont know for sure until we hear something more direct as you say, so for now we hash it out a little.
    Take care,
    Al
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Here is one new story. In case you are to young to know better yet, news stories are more often than not wrong on the details, but here it is. I don't think this was posted here yet.

    http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/...ml?idxno=20457

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAl View Post
    It is nice to be sure, but sometimes we just cant be, so we might apply a confidence level indicator.
    I'd say i am around 60 percent that they might be phasing out the consumer end of the business. That's over 50 percent because they lost some contracts with clients in the past.
    What contracts do you refer to?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAl View Post
    It's not any higher however because they have such a good partnership with Tesla so they may convert some of that to the consumer end, especially if they end up with overruns.
    Neither Panasonic nor any other top-tier vendor supply naked Li-ion cells for direct consumer use. Such cells enter the consumer market only through unofficial "back-door" channels not endorsed by the manufacturer. Top-tier manufacturers strongly discourage consumer level use of naked cells. Indeed, they have even sent cease and desist letters to shops selling directly to consumers (e.g Sony).

    I don't see anything above that would increase my "confidence level" regarding the above rumors.

  4. #64
    Flashaholic* MrAl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    What contracts do you refer to?



    Neither Panasonic nor any other top-tier vendor supply naked Li-ion cells for direct consumer use. Such cells enter the consumer market only through unofficial "back-door" channels not endorsed by the manufacturer. Top-tier manufacturers strongly discourage consumer level use of naked cells. Indeed, they have even sent cease and desist letters to shops selling directly to consumers (e.g Sony).

    I don't see anything above that would increase my "confidence level" regarding the above rumors.

    Hi,

    I'd have to look it up again to find out what contracts were lost, probably due to it's involvement with Tesla.

    But saying that "Neither Panasonic nor any other top-tier vendor supply naked Li-ion cells for direct consumer use" is a moot statement. You are basically saying that no manufacturers products reach the consumer market, or at least trying to say that. You also seem to be implying that if they do have overruns, they throw them in the garbage. Obviously any "letters" had no effect.

    But strangely you are arguing that they dont want to sell them, yet you say your confidence level for them NOT selling them in the future will not increase. So that sounds like a contradiction. Either you think they will sell less or you think they will sell more, or you think they will not change. So which is it.
    Take care,
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  5. #65
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAl View Post
    I'd have to look it up again to find out what contracts were lost, probably due to it's involvement with Tesla.
    If you are referring to news reports over the last half-year about Panasonic shortages (speculated to be due to reallocation to Tesla) then I don't believe that this temporary move implies anything about the topic at hand (rumors on Panasonic exiting the cyclindrical cell market). If you refer to something else then please provide links.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAl View Post
    But saying that "Neither Panasonic nor any other top-tier vendor supply naked Li-ion cells for direct consumer use" is a moot statement. You are basically saying that no manufacturers products reach the consumer market, or at least trying to say that. You also seem to be implying that if they do have overruns, they throw them in the garbage. Obviously any "letters" had no effect.
    No, you seem to have misinterpreted my intent, which was merely to emphasize that Panasonic does not target consumer use of loose cells, so this will have little if any role on their long-term strategies in the cylindrical cell market.

    For hobbyist use I would be less concerned about temporary shortages and more concerned about the shift to different cell formats. Most top-tier suppliers are retooling their 18650 assembly lines to meet the strong demand for larger EV cells (21700 etc). Once major pack manufacturers switch to the new formats there will be little demand left for 18650, so they may no longer be manufactured by top-tier companies.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 04-22-2018 at 09:22 AM.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    I always wondered about loose cells being sold to consumers due to safety concerns. But here we are. You go to Amazon or any other shops, you see devices that takes loose cells even the new 21700 now. Will this change or business as usual?

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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    ^^^ Probably not, i.e. you will still probably be able to obtain top-tier cells in popular-industrial-sizes through unofficial channels for "off label" use like flashlights. But once a size is no longer in demand in industry then it may be difficult to obtain through such channels. Currently this seems to have only a slight impact on hobbyist supply of 18650's (flashlights, vaping, etc). But it may play a major role in the near future - depending on how quickly industry switches away from 18650s to larger format cells (driven primarily by strong EV demands)
    Last edited by Gauss163; 04-22-2018 at 09:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    depending on how quickly industry switches away from 18650s to larger format cells (driven primarily by strong EV demands)
    And how fast laptops and tools stops using them.
    My website with battery, charger, usb reviews, comparisons & information: https://lygte-info.dk/
    Latest addition is multimeter reviews

  9. #69

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    The new size format would be quite of an upgrade from the 18650. Who wouldn't want longer runtimes on their devices. Going off on the pics and videos. The new cell format, they're only a slight bigger from the current 18650's. I definitely could see 18650's dying out soon.

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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by HKJ View Post
    And how fast laptops and tools stops using them.
    Already included in my above remark, viz. "Once major pack manufacturers switch to the new formats there will be little demand left for 18650s ...".

    Note that sometimes it is very easy for a manufacturer to upgrade a pack-powered (vs single-cell) device to new sized cells because this may be possible simply by rearranging the new size cells within the original pack - an option not available for single cell devices such as flashlights (with no room to spare). Recently designed devices may have been explicitly designed to handle such changes efficiently.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 04-22-2018 at 10:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    Note that sometimes it is very easy for a manufacturer to upgrade a pack-powered (vs single-cell) device to new sized cells because this may be possible simply by rearranging the new size cells within the original pack - an option not available for single cell devices such as flashlights (with no room to spare).
    Many tool and laptop packs can not just be filled with a larger size batteries. For laptops the laptop must be redesigned to accept a 15mm longer battery pack. There is also the detail about battery packs getting heavier (It is usual not possible to use one cell less).
    My website with battery, charger, usb reviews, comparisons & information: https://lygte-info.dk/
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  12. #72
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by HKJ View Post
    Many tool and laptop packs can not just be filled with a larger size batteries. For laptops the laptop must be redesigned to accept a 15mm longer battery pack. There is also the detail about battery packs getting heavier (It is usual not possible to use one cell less).
    That's why I wrote "sometimes...". The larger the pack the larger the probability that such repacking can be done efficiently (e.g. for large EV packs this is often quite possible, esp. if they were designed with such conversions in mind).

  13. #73
    Flashaholic* MrAl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    If you are referring to news reports over the last half-year about Panasonic shortages (speculated to be due to reallocation to Tesla) then I don't believe that this temporary move implies anything about the topic at hand (rumors on Panasonic exiting the cyclindrical cell market). If you refer to something else then please provide links.



    No, you seem to have misinterpreted my intent, which was merely to emphasize that Panasonic does not target consumer use of loose cells, so this will have little if any role on their long-term strategies in the cylindrical cell market.

    For hobbyist use I would be less concerned about temporary shortages and more concerned about the shift to different cell formats. Most top-tier suppliers are retooling their 18650 assembly lines to meet the strong demand for larger EV cells (21700 etc). Once major pack manufacturers switch to the new formats there will be little demand left for 18650, so they may no longer be manufactured by top-tier companies.

    Hello again,

    Thanks for the civil reply and thanks for the clarification. My respect for your replies has now gone up :-)

    As i was saying, I also have to say that i am not sure if it matters if the company targets consumers directly or not because we are getting them, and they know it. I cant say though how this is working out in the long run especially since we see so many devices using 18650 cells and they are DESIGNED to target the 18650 size.
    This is a sincere question: How do you explain that, or do you have any idea how this is working out in the long run?
    I guess i am a little puzzled because we see devices made for the cells, yet supposedly we are not suppose to be able to get the cells. Add to that the WAY we must be getting the cells, and that tells me that the company knows we can get them but does not want to take responsibility for any problems that come up. So indirectly they are selling to consumers, but bypass any liability. They must KNOW though because there are selling to companies that they know cells them in turn. So i see a little industry trickery here.
    Now if i am right, then what i said before does hold water because they will just cells more cells, that's all.

    I hope i made this clear, i know this is a somewhat complicated issue.

    I too go on Amazon and i can buy 100 different flashslights that take 18650 cells, but do not come with any.
    I actually did buy many different kinds already for friends and family over the years.

    Lastly, i hope we dont see an end to the 18650 some day as i like all of my lights that take those cells.
    Take care,
    Al
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  14. #74
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    ^^^ No doubt that the top-tier (cylindrical) Li-ion cell manufacturers are aware that somewhere down the supply chain they are being sold directly to consumers. But they do everything possible to discourage this in order to absolve themselves of liability (e.g. see the famous cease-and-desist letter sent by Sony to a vaping shop - which should be read by everyone who uses loose Li-ion cells).

    I see no reason that these unofficial consumer supply chains will disappear absent some major catastrophe that exposes the manufacturers to greater liability (e.g. a vaper is killed and lawyers attempt to sue everyone in the supply chain - all the way up to the manufacturer). What will likely change is that the 18650 format will become scarcer in these channels. But these channels will probably also be able to supply newer formats such as 21700 (and likely soon thereafter will appear flashlights, chargers, etc employing the freshly crowned king-of-industry format).

  15. #75

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    I remember reading about Sony sending out a cease and desist letter long time ago. But from the looks of things, that cease and desist letter must be a joke as i still see their cells being sold and in stock too lol.

    I do however see a liability page right when you about to place your order with all the safety precautions, etc info associated with these cells and have to agree to place your order. They assume no responsibility if you don't follow safety guidelines.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    ^^^^

    I believe Murata supposedly took over their L.Ion cell division last September. The cells still have Sony's name on it, at least for now.

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20.../#.Wt33JhsvwdU

  17. #77

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Unfortunately I can't give any further detail or proof due to confidentiality and legal reasons but the information I said is definitely not a rumor, we have very official communication to that effect. You can choose to believe me or not.

    We also engineer our own brand battery packs and protected button tops for flashlights FYI. As long as batteries are protected, the big manufacturers are totally OK with end consumers getting them. It's the unprotected cells that they don't want going direct to consumer.
    Last edited by Jon-LiionWholesale; 04-23-2018 at 12:23 PM.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    So does this means no more loose cells for consumers in the near future?

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon-LiionWholesale View Post
    Unfortunately I can't give any further detail or proof due to confidentiality and legal reasons but the information I said is definitely not a rumor, we have very official communication to that effect. You can choose to believe me or not.
    Neither Panasonic nor any other top-tier manufacturer will deal with companies who sell directly to consumers. So I am highly skeptical that you are in direct communication with Panasonic on this matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon-LiionWholesale View Post
    We also engineer our own brand battery packs and protected button tops for flashlights FYI. As long as batteries are protected, the big manufacturers are totally OK with end consumers getting them. It's the unprotected cells that they don't want going direct to consumer.
    None of the top-tier manufacturers have ever endorsed the protected single-cell aftermarket rewraps sold to consumers. Please give some evidence to back up your dubious claim that "the big manufacturers are totally OK with this". This directly contradicts what they have said about such matters, e.g the above-linked cease-and-desist Sony letter that I cited above.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Every time i see this thread gets updated i get nervous lol. I just want to say that what ever the outcome this may be. I just hope it's a win-win for everyone. Being able to swap cells without the waiting part is the reason for loose cells. At least for me anyways i am sure many others have their reasons too. I hate devices with a built in battery and i get why that is. Consumers don't care/ or not the brightest when it comes handling these particular cells. They're not your standard AA's, but then agian, you have primary lithium AA's sold in stores. How is that safe? Lol. But for the most part; most consumers only care that their devices is charged and go about their day. The percentage of users having loose cells is very small (correct me if i am wrong on this) and not quite that common. But i also understand why the concerning part for big manufactures like Panasonic for consumers to have loose cells in the first place. All comes down to liability. So far we have yet to hear another cell vented in vape incident. But man, these cells packs a lot of energy per volume that blows away traditional cells sold in stores.

    So anyways, i just hope the outcome is a win-win for all.
    Last edited by MarioJP; 04-23-2018 at 04:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Hello again,

    It is starting to sound like i will have to give up my 18650 lights some day. That's too bad because these are some of my favorites.

    I dont know if i can upgrade to the 21700 cells because i dont think there is enough WIDTH in my big 7 LED T6 light for example. I think i can accommodate the extra length (about 5mm) but the width might be too great to fit in the chamber and not sure if the middle is thick enough to allow retooling. I'll have to check that.
    I know the 21700's are better cells, but if they dont fit you must acquit :-) The flashlight will become moot once your last set of 18650's die off.
    From what i have read the 18650's are a little wider than 18mm, closer to 19mm, which means another 2mm in width for the 21700 approximately. I'll do some measurements.

    I looked around the web today too and dont see any really good lights that say that they work with the 21700 cells although i do see the cells themselves being sold now.
    Take care,
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  22. #82

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    Neither Panasonic nor any other top-tier manufacturer will deal with companies who sell directly to consumers. So I am highly skeptical that you are in direct communication with Panasonic on this matter.



    None of the top-tier manufacturers have ever endorsed the protected single-cell aftermarket rewraps sold to consumers. Please give some evidence to back up your dubious claim that "the big manufacturers are totally OK with this". This directly contradicts what they have said about such matters, e.g the above-linked cease-and-desist Sony letter that I cited above.
    The cease and desist letter is talking about cells without circuitry. Reread it. Protected cells have circuitry and are not standalone cells, but are considered to be completed batteries by the cell manufacturers.

    I don't really see why I would lie about this, so your skepticism is very curious. But that's your choice.

  23. #83

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAl View Post
    Hello again,

    It is starting to sound like i will have to give up my 18650 lights some day. That's too bad because these are some of my favorites.

    I dont know if i can upgrade to the 21700 cells because i dont think there is enough WIDTH in my big 7 LED T6 light for example. I think i can accommodate the extra length (about 5mm) but the width might be too great to fit in the chamber and not sure if the middle is thick enough to allow retooling. I'll have to check that.
    I know the 21700's are better cells, but if they dont fit you must acquit :-) The flashlight will become moot once your last set of 18650's die off.
    From what i have read the 18650's are a little wider than 18mm, closer to 19mm, which means another 2mm in width for the 21700 approximately. I'll do some measurements.

    I looked around the web today too and dont see any really good lights that say that they work with the 21700 cells although i do see the cells themselves being sold now.
    Don't worry about it. We're talking about Panasonic in particular. There will always be good cell providers in the 18650 size for the foreseeable future.

  24. #84
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon-LiionWholesale View Post
    The cease and desist letter is talking about cells without circuitry. Reread it. Protected cells have circuitry and are not standalone cells, but are considered to be completed batteries by the cell manufacturers.
    I'm afraid you misunderstand. Below I excerpt part of Sony's cease-and-desist letter and elaborate on its meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sony"
    These [Li-ion] cells were made only to be used in connection with the assembly of battery packs of products such as power tools, which have the necessary enclosure, protective devices and circuitry that enable safe usage of these battery cells. Sony lithium-ion rechargeable battery cells (including those with "VTC" designation) are not intended for use without such packaging or circuitry, and should not be used as a standalone product for instance with e-cigarettes, vaporizer pens or other products of any type.

    The use of any Sony lithium ion rechargeable battery cells as a stand-alone product, including with e-cigarettes, vaporizer pens or other products, constitutes a DANGEROUS misuse of the battery cells that poses a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. This matter is significant enough that the U.S. Fire Administration, an arm of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security's Federal Emergency Management Agency, released a report ...
    The point of the above is that Sony (and every other top-tier) manufacturer does not endorse the use of loose Li-ion cells in standalone products (e.g. 18650s used in vaporizers, flashlights, etc) because there is no way to adequately ensure user safety. This is in contrast to complete professionally designed products where trained engineers have safely integrated Li-ion cells in the power subsystem. Here the engineer has complete control of the design of the battery subsystem so they can ensure that the design meets international safety standards - something that cannot be guaranteed in products using loose cells that are assembled and maintained by the end user.

    In case you may not be aware. the safety standards used in designing such systems are extremely comprehensive, designed using fault-tree analysis, FMEA, etc, and incorporating multiple levels of failsafe redundancy. For example, the safety standards employed for laptop batteries consider hundreds of possible safety cases, even the case that a pet urinates on a PC, e.g. below from the IEEE 1625 standard



    It is such professionally designed battery subsystems that Sony refers to above. This does not include loose 18650 cells wrapped with a protection circuit by random third-parties. In fact, many knowledgeable folks consider these to be even less safe than loose unprotected cells in various contexts. For example, the metal tab running down the side of the cell increases by an order of magnitude the area where a small metal object can induce an internal short (the tab is positive and the entire cell can is negative) - the cause of many "pants on fire" incidents in the vaping community. Further, there is no protection from mechanical shock, which can easily damage the protection circuit (of which there are many reports) - leaving the user with a false sense of security.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon-LiionWholesale View Post
    I don't really see why I would lie about this, so your skepticism is very curious. But that's your choice.
    No one accused you of lying. As for my choice of what to believe, I'm an (MIT-educated) scientist so, of course, I will choose science and facts over rumors and misunderstandings.

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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post

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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    I'm afraid you misunderstand. Below I excerpt part of Sony's cease-and-desist letter and elaborate on its meaning.



    The point of the above is that Sony (and every other top-tier) manufacturer does not endorse the use of loose Li-ion cells in standalone products (e.g. 18650s used in vaporizers, flashlights, etc) because there is no way to adequately ensure user safety. This is in contrast to complete professionally designed products where trained engineers have safely integrated Li-ion cells in the power subsystem. Here the engineer has complete control of the design of the battery subsystem so they can ensure that the design meets international safety standards - something that cannot be guaranteed in products using loose cells that are assembled and maintained by the end user.

    In case you may not be aware. the safety standards used in designing such systems are extremely comprehensive, designed using fault-tree analysis, FMEA, etc, and incorporating multiple levels of failsafe redundancy. For example, the safety standards employed for laptop batteries consider hundreds of possible safety cases, even the case that a pet urinates on a PC, e.g. below from the IEEE 1625 standard



    It is such professionally designed battery subsystems that Sony refers to above. This does not include loose 18650 cells wrapped with a protection circuit by random third-parties. In fact, many knowledgeable folks consider these to be even less safe than loose unprotected cells in various contexts. For example, the metal tab running down the side of the cell increases by an order of magnitude the area where a small metal object can induce an internal short (the tab is positive and the entire cell can is negative) - the cause of many "pants on fire" incidents in the vaping community. Further, there is no protection from mechanical shock, which can easily damage the protection circuit (of which there are many reports) - leaving the user with a false sense of security.



    No one accused you of lying. As for my choice of what to believe, I'm an (MIT-educated) scientist so, of course, I will choose science and facts over rumors and misunderstandings.

    Hi,

    Very interesting.
    I just read the FEMA report, it seems to target the e cigarette applications only.
    The main concern seems to be the encasing method due to the "rocketing effect" a cell can have when it ignites.
    I believe a lot of flashlights would prevent this from happening even though there could still be a fire. So i think we are good to go, as long as it's a well made strong shell flashlight. All mine are, especially the big one which has thick walls.
    The only question i would have for those lights is, where exactly will they vent from then. I have a feeling it would be from the front end where the LEDs are located but i'd have to check to see if they built a firewall between the tops of the batteries and the LED mounting platform.

    Most problem cases occurred during use or during charging.
    Less than 200 cases over some 8 years and none fatal makes it safer than flying :-)
    Last edited by MrAl; 04-26-2018 at 07:56 AM. Reason: typos
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  27. #87

    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    I'm afraid you misunderstand. Below I excerpt part of Sony's cease-and-desist letter and elaborate on its meaning.



    The point of the above is that Sony (and every other top-tier) manufacturer does not endorse the use of loose Li-ion cells in standalone products (e.g. 18650s used in vaporizers, flashlights, etc) because there is no way to adequately ensure user safety. This is in contrast to complete professionally designed products where trained engineers have safely integrated Li-ion cells in the power subsystem. Here the engineer has complete control of the design of the battery subsystem so they can ensure that the design meets international safety standards - something that cannot be guaranteed in products using loose cells that are assembled and maintained by the end user.

    In case you may not be aware. the safety standards used in designing such systems are extremely comprehensive, designed using fault-tree analysis, FMEA, etc, and incorporating multiple levels of failsafe redundancy. For example, the safety standards employed for laptop batteries consider hundreds of possible safety cases, even the case that a pet urinates on a PC, e.g. below from the IEEE 1625 standard



    It is such professionally designed battery subsystems that Sony refers to above. This does not include loose 18650 cells wrapped with a protection circuit by random third-parties. In fact, many knowledgeable folks consider these to be even less safe than loose unprotected cells in various contexts. For example, the metal tab running down the side of the cell increases by an order of magnitude the area where a small metal object can induce an internal short (the tab is positive and the entire cell can is negative) - the cause of many "pants on fire" incidents in the vaping community. Further, there is no protection from mechanical shock, which can easily damage the protection circuit (of which there are many reports) - leaving the user with a false sense of security.
    OK, yes. What you are saying has nothing to do with the letter though, it seems you misunderstand what is written there. That letter is very clearly and specifically calling out selling loose unprotected cells. Sure, the cell manufacturers prefer applications like what you're saying with a million line DFMEA that includes everything from "pet urination" to "pine martens chewed on the positive wire while standing on the negative wire after taking a bath in saltwater" to "meteorite made of pure copper hits the side of the battery", but that is beyond the minimum required in order to make a battery pack. I'm sure you know that just because a higher standard exists for batteries in a certain application (laptops in the case of IEEE 1625), that doesn't mean every battery in every application has to conform to that standard. "loose cells" means unprotected, in battery speak. That is what the letter is about.

    Despite your misgivings about the protected single cell batteries, if designed correctly they are absolutely safer than unprotected cells. They meet the criteria of what the cells are designed for as listed in the letter, having both protective devices/circuitry, and an enclosure (thick PVC) protecting from short circuits. I would understand if you disagree that they're safer due to the potential issues you posted but you would be in the minority there, and for sure it cannot be said that the letter is trying to address these single cell battery packs.

    I may have graduated from Penn State and not MIT, but I am an engineer who is actually working in this industry who is also obsessed with science and facts and would never share information where the truth is not 100% certain. So I understand where you're coming from with wanting to make sure this isn't rumor, but I think you're mistaken that your disagreement comes from facts in this case.

  28. #88
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    I think you have to realize that safety standards are designed to protect the most stupid people in society, and those who have been permanently cursed by voodoo witch-doctors. Hopefully, none of us would do incredibly dumb things to our 18650 lights or cells. If you use them as intended, they'll be safe. Be an idiot, and they'll be unsafe.

  29. #89
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon-LiionWholesale View Post
    OK, yes. What you are saying has nothing to do with the letter though, it seems you misunderstand what is written there. That letter is very clearly and specifically calling out selling loose unprotected cells.
    The scope of the letter is most certainly not restricted only to unprotected (single) cells. Please read it more closely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon-LiionWholesale View Post
    Sure, the cell manufacturers prefer applications like what you're saying with a million line DFME ... I'm sure you know that just because a higher standard exists for batteries in a certain application (laptops in the case of IEEE 1625), that doesn't mean every battery in every application has to conform to that standard. "loose cells" means unprotected, in battery speak. That is what the letter is about.
    They don't "prefer" packs that meet safety standards. Rather they insist on such - as is made clear in the Sony letter I posted. You seem to misunderstand the gist of the letter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon-LiionWholesale View Post
    Despite your misgivings about the protected single cell batteries, if designed correctly they are absolutely safer than unprotected cells. They meet the criteria of what the cells are designed for as listed in the letter, having both protective devices/circuitry, and an enclosure (thick PVC) protecting from short circuits. I would understand if you disagree that they're safer due to the potential issues you posted but you would be in the minority there, and for sure it cannot be said that the letter is trying to address these single cell battery packs.
    As I emphasized in a prior post, single cells with protection circuits added by random 3rd parties have many deficiencies. They have never been endorsed for general public use by any reputable / top-tier manufacturer. Nor will they ever be, since they are far from meeting the safety of professionally designed battery packs. Claims to the contrary are common by low-tier (Chinese) rewrappers - who clearly don't give a damn about the safety of their users. It is sad to see such unfounded claims being propagated even further by some USA sellers.

    I'm not sure if you are serious or joking about the "thick PVC enclosure" sheathing protected cells. In case you are serious, you should be aware that the thin PVC wrapper on protected cells is often ripped open when used by hobbyists, and it most certainly does not suffice as the sort of "enclosure" mentioned in Sony's letter. An adequate battery (pack) enclosure must not easily be breached and must also protect the circuitry from mechanical shock. You don't have to read very far in vaping or flashlight forums to see how poorly that "thick PVC enclosure" performs in this regard. Its frequent failure is one of the primary causes of accidents reported by hobbyists.

    Given that you are selling Li-ion cells directly to the public I encourage you to learn more about safety matters, and use that knowledge to help educate your buyers. The little safety warning blurb that you append on your web pages is far from adequate in this regard (e.g. it does not even mention why Li-ion cells pose a much higher risk of shorts vs. other common consumer cells - one of the primary sources of accidents).

  30. #90
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    Default Re: Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkIntoTheLight View Post
    I think you have to realize that safety standards are designed to protect the most stupid people in society, and those who have been permanently cursed by voodoo witch-doctors. Hopefully, none of us would do incredibly dumb things to our 18650 lights or cells. If you use them as intended, they'll be safe. Be an idiot, and they'll be unsafe.
    But use of Li-ion cells is now ubiquitous due to the popularity of vaping. Moreover the ability to safely use Li-ion cells requires more than just intelligence. It also requires the discipline to religiously follow safety rules. Otherwise the one time you get lazy you may end up like the hobby shop owner who left his pack unattended for 10mins and it burned down his shop.

    Properly designed Li-ion devices help cover our ass when we make the inevitable human error - whether it be from lack of safety knowledge, laziness, etc.

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