Noticeable difference between 500 lumens?

Looking at lights for law enforcement. Two of them are the Fenix UC35 which is 1,000 lumens and another is the Olight M2R which is 1,500 lumens.


Is there a noticeable difference in 500 lumens?



Also, for law enforcement work I'd assume cool white is better and brighter than neutral white?

As to your first question, the difference between 1000 and 1500 lumens won't be terribly significant unless the optic/reflector is different.

As I am not an LEO, I can't answer the second question definitively.

The general rule of thumb is that something needs to be 4x as bright to appear 2x as bright. So in general a 50% increase in lumens (from 1000 to 1500) might appear 22% brighter. That is noticeable but not enough to worry about.

However beam shape and candela matter too. The UC35 is 10000 candela and the M2R is 10880 candela. Nearly identical intensity so both lights will be just as bright.

Neutral white usually has more accurate colors. That might be helpful for identifying people at a distance. Cool white probably has a small edge temporarily blinding.

For law enforcement, I prefer neutral over cool. But I like neutral over cool for pretty much everything. I would choose cool in a long distance thrower, though.

matt4350 said:

For law enforcement, I prefer neutral over cool. But I like neutral over cool for pretty much everything. I would choose cool in a long distance thrower, though.

Click to expand...

Long distance cool-white throwers look impressive because the beam is very visible. But, that beam is scattering a lot of the blue light, meaning less light is hitting your target, and making it more difficult to see-through that scatter. A warmer tint, even if it's slightly less bright, is actually more useful.

The Olight would be more useful. Not the brighter part where the difference between 1000 and 1500 isn't that noticeable, but it would be more practical in general.

Cool white will help ID friend or foe at a further distance more quickly than neutral. These days cool whites are backing away from blue in the kelvin scale and using yellows and greens to achieve a less shocking (read self blinding) version of cool that boarders on the edge of neutral. 5700-6200 vs the old 6500 or higher.

For more years than I care to remember my venerable SL20 ( in the early 70's this light was the mac daddy) was literally a life saving Blessing and the only times I wished for more was when we had to assist the railroad boys in the freight yards where there was a near zero chance of getting any bounce back from windows or reflective surfaces which would completely destroy your night vision for what seemed like hours when it happened.

Police Officers today are fortunate to have so many high quality high output lights with multi levels of brightness available, the only limiting factor is now size. For plainclothes use I would grab either the TK22 or TK35UE for uniformed duty I really think the LD75c or LD60 would be absolutely perfect AND perhaps the most logical choice as they can function with only partial batteries and still provide light even when one/two of the leds crap out.

Forgot to ask, does anyone know the output of the SL20 when it first came out?

HEDP said:

Looking at lights for law enforcement. Two of them are the Fenix UC35 which is 1,000 lumens and another is the Olight M2R which is 1,500 lumens.


Is there a noticeable difference in 500 lumens?



Also, for law enforcement work I'd assume cool white is better and brighter than neutral white?

Click to expand...

Your question has already been answered satisfactorily, so I'll refrain from giving input on that. I just want to point out that maybe you can also look at the Fenix PD35 TAC, which is very similar to the UC35 but hugely popular, albeit non-rechargeable, but you can just buy rechargeable batteries.

bykfixer said:

Cool white will help ID friend or foe at a further distance more quickly than neutral.

Click to expand...

Why do you say that?

Yes to cool white. They say, lumens are not everything. Well, tint is also not everything.

In a very powerful torch like Malkoff Hound Dog, there is a 10% difference between Neutral and cool white. The extra 100 or so lumens are just enough to give it a bit of punch at a distance.

Yes you can see 500 lumen difference very easily. I think you can see 200 lumens very easily also. When it gets to be below 150 or so lumens then it begins to be less significant.

I have both 1000 and close to 1500 lumens lights, yeah you can see it. The other important thing is the shape of the beam. How much spill, how hot is the hotspot, etc. A 900 lumen light will appear to be much brighter than a 1500 lumen device if the former has a hotter hotspot - measured in lux.

This thread seems to be not taking into consideration that most compact flashlights with 1000-1500 maximum lumens will sag in output fairly quickly, making the visual difference even less significant.

Regarding friend or foe identification, there are other factors to consider as to whether warm or cool flashlights will be more effective.

I've entirely stopped using cool white lights. The last several times I took out cool white lights and went to use them and really try to put tint preference out of my mind and tried to just appreciate the utility of the light, I find myself struggling to find what I'm looking for and sometimes I find myself going where are all the colors? Everything looks grey... And I realize as I'm going through my laundry that the sweatpants I wanted are RIGHT THERE I just didn't see them because they looked completely wrong.

Pull out the hiCRI and everything looks normal.

Cool white helps a bag of weed look the exact same color as the grey car seats it's sitting on. The extra lumens are useless in my mind. Especially at distance, where as others have pointed out, cool light has more scattering effect in the atmosphere and the extra lumens are used up making a big light beam visible in the air.

I haven't seen much mention of how much less runtime you'll achieve at 1500 lumens compared to 1000 lumens. Also not much mention of the fact that in reality, most lights will not be able to maintain 1500 or 1000 lumens for very long, or the LED would overheat unless the lights are built large with ample heat sinking.

1500 lumens is just bragging rights in my mind if it lasts less than 3 minutes.

The thing that's just as important as the lumens is the lux. How hot the hotspot is, that is.

Lights like Malkoff wildcat or the older M91 have tons of lumens but very low lux. They are very floody. So whatever it is you are projecting on, appears to be not as well lit as with a device that has half the lumens but 4 times the lux.

Ideally you want a light that has both high lux and high lumens. Case in point, Malkoff Hound Dog Super. It does not compromise in any area. Except size maybe. it has tons of lumens, lux, spill and all.

I think Malkoff Hound Dog strikes the perfect balance between lux, lumens, runtime and size. I really do not see how it can be improved except superficially.

Unless a light has fairly intelligent well spaced levels of output it is categorically and unequivocally unsuited to Law Enforcement or most other activities for that matter. One would be utterly foolish to NOT consider a light with well spaced output levels for the stated use of the op due to its inability to maintain x number of lumens past x minutes-when you need it you need it but really not for a whole lotta time.

As for a fixed output light with a massive one hour runtime-I'm sure it has a purpose/application somewhere but it probably is NOT for professional use of any kind and positively not for law enforcement applications.

Opinion yes but regrettably it is opinion formed through experience-long ago but not long enough ago-those who know will understand.

A case for having more than one flashlight. Not necessarily on the duty belt at all times. Heaven knows your belt is loaded enough already.
I know state police who are issued Streamlight Stingers (ultra stingers now) that stay in the patrol car until needed. When they pull over a motorist, they get out of the car with their Stinger in hand. But on their belt is a smaller secondary light. So it's like having a second full clip for the pistol if need be.

And the original SL20 is stated to have 100-105 lumens, but they did not use the term lumens back then. I do not know the number of 'candlepower' they cited back then. But that was the term largely used.

Remember this place was formed when CandlePower was the word used to describe output, and in it's inception it was a forum for those seeking to gain more brightness from flashlights.... as in more "candle power"...

If you are tryig to see something far away, then flood will bounce back at you & make it harder. So a light with both throw & spill is less effective than a pure thrower.

So consider a good quality variable focus light. With several output levels.

Even in daylight, there is a maximum distance at which you can see something in a person's hand. So that is the maximum practical distance at night for 'high' visibility. Beyond that you need to see the shape, which requires less illumination and more color rendition.

Soon you will have a small autonomous drone that flies ahead of you with a light & a camera.

Totally agreed about flood illuminating nearby objects and actually making distant objects harder to see.

I'm a LEO, what I look for is a balance of throw and flood. Lumens get confusing if it's all throw or flood and not a mix. When comparing light as in picture or in person shine it at a target. How well is the target lit up and how far to either side can you identify objects. That's what I look for. Throwers are great when searching for someone wanting or needing to be found not so good when hiding. Flood is really nice in building searches. What is your patrol area like, rural or built up?