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Thread: What H4 instead of Osram 64205?

  1. #1

    Default What H4 instead of Osram 64205?

    I have used the 64205 on recommendation from this Forum and recently the high beam went out on one side after a few years [!] of great use . These Osrams are different in brightness, in terms of more light rather than increased candela at some tiny spots in the Beam ... Manufacturers should stop being able to use "hotspots " in the beam synonomously with overall brightness- 99.75437% [ lol ] of Consumers don't get how they measure brightness.

    Are the Narva +50 similar to the discontinued 64205 ?

    The 64205 looks less yellow possibly an illusion from the brightness or possibly the Tungsten is actually hotter , I think my Alternator is 13.5 or 13.8 Volts and you can see a definite color difference at 12 volts (battery ) to Alternator Voltage [with engine on].

    Interestingly - the Narva Range Power +110 Info says for that Bulb ' we used a different burner for more lumens' .I am trying to attach the info sheet . There is a little blue on the glass of the +110 - I care more about Lumens than color although I do like the added whiteness from driving a Bulb higher. If it the +110 is a different burner for more lumens AND a higher Candela in some spots and there are enough spots to affect the throw...a bonus.

    I want another bulb with about 1400 to 1500 lumens on low beam and about 1900 to 2100 wild guessing what the Osram 64205 gives me.

    I have also noticed an H4 listed at 12 volts 67 and 60 watts on high and low beams respectively which might be about 65 and 75 or a bit more at 13.2 13.5 volts ? BUT this may be an error on the chart and they may be assuming 13.2 volts - though the chart says 12.....
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 09-23-2018 at 03:56 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: What H4 instead of Osram 64205?

    Quote Originally Posted by robertkoa View Post
    I have used the 64205 on recommendation from this Forum and recently the high beam went out on one side after a few years [!] of great use . These Osrams are different in brightness, in terms of more light rather than increased candela at some tiny spots in the Beam
    It's both, not either/or.

    Manufacturers should stop being able to use "hotspots " in the beam synonomously with overall brightness
    They already don't.

    Are the Narva +50 similar to the discontinued 64205 ?
    No, not even close. The closest is going to be a +100, +110, +120, +130 bulb, a major-brand one with as little blue on it as possible. The Philips +100 is very good, as is the GE Night Hawk Xenon (which is the European GE/Tungsram Mega +120 in American packaging). Too much blue glass on the Narva Rangepower +110 and Osram Night Breaker Unlimited, the Philips and GE/Tungsram +130, the Philips Racing Vision, and the Osram Night Breaker Laser.

    I think my Alternator is 13.5 or 13.8 Volts and you can see a definite color difference at 12 volts (battery ) to Alternator Voltage [with engine on].
    Yes, charging voltage is going to range from 13v to 14.5v (or even higher) depending on battery/ambient temperature and state of charge. A fully-charged "12 volt" battery is between 12.6v and 12.8v, and there's usually some loss in the headlamp circuit (see info on this page).

    With voltage change to a filament bulb:
    Output (lumens) changes exponentially ^3.4
    Power (watts) changes exponentially ^1.6
    Life (hours) changes exponentially ^-13 (that's a negative in front of the 13)

    So going from 12v to 13.8v, that's 61% more light (yep, you're going to see that!), 25% higher wattage, and 84% shorter filament life.

    Interestingly - the Narva Range Power +110 Info says for that Bulb ' we used a different burner for more lumens'
    Yes, the filaments and the fill gas are different. That's what's required to make a bulb that has different characteristics than some other bulb. Also the glass is different (blue bands). Is there something interesting about it to you beyond that?

    If it the +110 is a different burner for more lumens AND a higher Candela in some spots and there are enough spots to affect the throw...a bonus.
    This and your earlier comments about how you wish bulb makers wouldn't make claims (that they're actually not making), make me think you might misunderstand what the "Plus" numbers mean. They don't mean there's one or two or some other countable number of spots or tiny points in the beam that are more intense. They're an up-to figure referring to the biggest increase that might reasonably be caused by using this bulb instead of that bulb. It's not that this point and that point and those two points are showing increases, it's usually that every point in the beam has more light, and what they look for and promote on the packaging and in the sell sheet is the biggest increase they measure. Granted, you don't know what headlamp they measured it in, and results will vary in different headlamps. But generally you won't find a headlamp that is made worse by installing a well-made "Plus" bulb from a reliable maker.

    The combination of more compact filament coils (higher luminance), more precise filament position and orientation (better focus), and strategic fill gas composition and pressure is what makes these bulbs cause headlamps to work better. Please look at this thread.

    Some bulbs then throw away some or all of the improvement by coloring the bulb glass blue or purple (or throw away even more than the improvement -- remember, bulbs have a wide allowable output tolerance, often around 30%).

    It doesn't matter if there's a ring of blue near the tip of the bulb; that's not an area of the glass where light that's part of the beam pattern goes through, so blue light in that location doesn't absorb light that would otherwise contribute to the beam pattern. What it does is strategically block some of the light that would otherwise get counted in the integrating sphere (tool to measure the lumen output of a bulb). With the blue ring, a bulb that would otherwise fail because of lumen output greater than allowed for its type can pass.

    I want another bulb with about 1400 to 1500 lumens on low beam
    Well, the maximum allowed for a 12-volt H4 is 1,150 lumens on low beam at 13.2 volts, and the best of the "Plus" bulbs hover near there, let's say 1,140. The 64205 was rated 1,350 lumens at 13.2 volts. To get that same amount of light out of a bulb with a nominal 12v 60/55w rating, producing 1,140 lumens at 13.2v, you'd need to run it at about 13.9 volts, and it would be operating at about 71 watts.

    and about 1900 to 2100 wild guessing what the Osram 64205 gives me.
    The 64205 was rated 2,000 lumens on high beam at 13.2v. A "12v, 60/55w" H4 is allowed up to 1,895 lumens at 13.2v. The best of them tend to run close to that, about 1,875. To get 2,000 out of it you'd have to run it at about 13.4v @ 72w (at 13.9 it would put out about 2,260 @ 78w).

    I have also noticed an H4 listed at 12 volts 67 and 60 watts on high and low beams
    Those are the nominal ratings at 12.8v.

    The UN (used to be "European") reg specifies a "12v" H4 as follows, high/low:

    60/55w at 12.0v, nominal wattage
    75/68w at 13.2v, maximum wattage

    The US reg specifies (as "HB2"):
    72/65w at 12.8v, maximum wattage

    All of these figures (60/55w, 67/60w, 72/65w, 75/68w) refer to the same bulb, not four different versions of it.
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 09-23-2018 at 10:16 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Osram Rallye 65W H7 is discontinued - Is there another like it?

    The other thing is the 64205 [ I am a layman on lighting ] does not have those smaller filaments and lasts much longer for most people.

    I hope someone makes a 'Off Road ' ...or even better if the USA lets us go UP a little in Lumens - provided we get a Certificate from a Tech who aims the Lights Properly ...so I can get 2200 Lumen Hi Beams and 1600 low beam Halogens IF I get them aligned / adjusted every 2 years and get a certificate .

    In light of hi power LEDs and HIDs the Laws for Halogens from 1963 or whenever are obsolete IF we have proper cutoffs.

    I could make a persuasive case that with so many older drivers we need brighter Halogens anyway.

    First of all ..in Florida we hsve a lot of super bright 2500 to 3500 lumen [ wild guess] HIDs any way and LEDs all over the place .

    For reflector enclosures - right around the power and performance of the Osrams is just about perfect...easy on the wiring easy on the eyes..

    Anyway...I am surprised there is nothing else new in the last few years since I got them.

    Anyway ,if it becomes legal in USA to go to 1550 lumens and 2100 lumens and slightly higher wattage - they could use beefier longer lasting filaments like on the Rallye 62405 ..it's a more rugged design than the new plus bulbs and lasts longer ...correct ?

    Anyway ....unless there is a legal category for high performance Halogens ....we probably won't see a true replacement .....

    On the thread about the Philips being a good replacement was that the Extreme Vision +100 and does that apply to the +120 +150 or are the filaments getting so snall we are truly only going to get 150 hours on the +150 +130 .. types which conflate true performance with a few hotspots in the beam ?

    I could make a pretty good case for relaxing/ raising the restrictions on lumens on halogens anyway...more older drivers than ever and brighter bulbs in use anyway so why restrict Halogens so much in 2018.
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 09-23-2018 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Remove duplicative rambling

  4. #4

    Default Re: Osram Rallye 65W H7 is discontinued - Is there another like it?

    Quote Originally Posted by robertkoa View Post
    The other thing is the 64205 [ I am a layman on lighting ] does not have those smaller filaments and lasts much longer for most people.
    That's not correct. The 64205 was definitely a "Plus" type of bulb in terms of the burner modifications, and its rated lifespan on low and high beam was very much shorter than a standard H4, akin to the lifespan of the other "Plus" bulbs.

    Anyway ,if it becomes legal in USA to go to 1550 lumens and 2100 lumens and slightly higher wattage - they could use beefier longer lasting filaments like on the Rallye 62405 ..it's a more rugged design than the new plus bulbs and lasts longer ...correct ?
    Not correct at all (none of it).

    I hope someone makes a 'Off Road ' ...or even better if the USA lets us go UP a little in Lumens - provided we get a Certificate from a Tech who aims the Lights Properly ...so I can get 2200 Lumen Hi Beams and 1600 low beam Halogens IF I get them aligned / adjusted every 2 years and get a certificate .
    None of this makes any sense. This is not how these things work.

    In light of hi power LEDs and HIDs the Laws for Halogens from 1963 or whenever are obsolete IF we have proper cutoffs.
    None of this is correct, either.

    I could make a persuasive case that with so many older drivers we need brighter Halogens anyway.
    No, I don't think that you're in a position to make a persuasive case about headlamps, because you really don't seem to have much grasp of how they work (and how they don't). That's not intended as an insult, just an acknowledgement of what you yourself say: you call yourself a "layman" in lighting, which means you don't know a lot about it. You can certainly learn, and one way to do that effectively is that at this stage you should be asking questions rather than making statements...because so far most of your statements are just plain not correct.

    First of all ..in Florida we hsve a lot of super bright 2500 to 3500 lumen [ wild guess] HIDs any way and LEDs all over the place .
    This has nothing at all to do with halogen bulbs.

    Anyway ....unless there is a legal category for high performance Halogens ....we probably won't see a true replacement .....
    I gave you the performance-matching numbers above. Easily achievable with bulbs available today (and linked for E-Z purchase, even!)

    On the thread about the Philips being a good replacement was that the Extreme Vision +100 and does that apply to the +120 +150
    No. Read post #2 in this thread.

    or are the filaments getting so snall we are truly only going to get 150 hours on the +150 +130 .. types which conflate true performance with a few hotspots in the beam ?
    None of this makes any sense. This isn't how these things work.

    I could make a pretty good case for relaxing/ raising the restrictions on lumens on halogens anyway
    No, you really could not.

    more older drivers than ever and brighter bulbs in use anyway so why restrict Halogens so much in 2018.
    The year 2018 has nothing to do with it, and the rest of this is a nonsequitur.

    Please -- please -- read more and ask more. You really don't yet know what you're talking about, and your guesses and claims just aren't based in reality.

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