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Thread: Sienna LED Upgrade

  1. #1
    Unenlightened
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    Default Sienna LED Upgrade

    Hi all,

    I'm looking to upgrade my 2010 Toyota Sienna LE FWD with some LED low and high headlights. I've come here to get your knowledgeable opinions CPF members! While I love my work flashlight, I'm pretty clueless about auto headlights minus giving the auto store my vehicle info...

    Looking for a direct replacement if possible. Basically I'm looking for a bright or brighter OEM direct replacement.

    Any input would be greatly appreciated!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Sienna LED Upgrade

    Welcome to the board. What you have in mind is not an upgrade. "LED bulbs" are not effective, safe, or legal -- no matter what brand name is on them or what claims are made for them. The optical incompatibility is fundamental. Same goes for "HID kits"; see here. More info here. I'm sure that's not the answer you were hoping for, but it is the only correct answer.

    Take a close look at the headlamps on your car, which are now about nine years old. Are the lenses less than perfect? They should be as clear sparkling as a brand-new window. If they're not, the real fix is a new set of headlamps -- real ones, genuine Toyota parts, because all of the aftermarket non-Toyota ones are junk -- but although most of the headlight restoration kits on the market are not much good, there are some methods that can bring lightly-degraded lenses back to useful life for awhile; see here (read through the whole thread and follow the links).

    As far as upgrades go: two headlamp systems were available on the '10 Sienna. Standard equipment was halogen lamps with 9006 low beam bulbs and 9005 high beam bulbs. An inexpensive and very effective upgrade is to put 9012 bulbs (these) in the low beams and 9011 bulbs (these) in the high beams. You will have to trim a plastic tab slightly on each of the new bulbs as shown here. And contrary to some claims you can find around the internet, this is not a universal swap -- some lamps will perform safely with it, and others will not. Yours happen to be on the "will" list.

    Optional equipment on the '10 Sienna was a headlamp system with HID low beams with D2R bulbs and halogen high beams with 9005 bulbs. HID bulbs lose significant output with accumulated usage. The best D2R is this one, and the high beam upgrade is same as above.

    No matter what kind of lamps you have, you must make sure the lamps are correctly and properly aimed. This will probably cost some money to have done, and you might have to make a seemingly unreasonable effort to find a shop that owns (and uses) the right tool for the job, which is an optical aiming machine -- NOT a wall to shine the lights on.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Sienna LED Upgrade

    What qualifies you to give legal advice? Where is the law that states LED' are illegal as you claim? I have not found this text though have looked though many pages of the laws. I have read why its a bad idea in the sticky but that thread is four years old now and LEDs are now the exact location and size of a halogen filament.

    This is the complete section dealing with light sources.

    S11 Replaceable light source requirements. Each replaceable light source must be designed to conform to the dimensions and electrical specifications furnished with respect to it pursuant to part 564 of this chapter, on file in Docket No. NHTSA 98-3397, and must conform to the following requirements:

    S11.1 Markings. If other than an HB Type, the light source must be marked with the bulb marking designation specified for it in compliance with appendix A or appendix B of part 564 of this chapter. The base of each HB Type must be marked with its HB Type designation. Each replaceable light source must also be marked with the symbol DOT and with a name or trademark in accordance with S6.5.

    S11.2 Ballast markings. If a ballast is required for operation, each ballast must bear the following permanent markings:

    (a) Name or logo of ballast manufacturer;

    (b) Ballast part number or unique identification;

    (c) Part number or other unique identification of the light source for which the ballast is designed;

    (d) Rated laboratory life of the light source/ballast combination, if the information for the light source has been filed in appendix B of part 564 of this chapter;

    (e) A warning that ballast output voltage presents the potential for severe electrical shock that could lead to permanent injury or death;

    (f) Ballast output power in watts and output voltage in rms volts AC or DC; and

    (g) The symbol ‘DOT’.

    S11.3 Gas discharge laboratory life. For light sources that use excited gas mixtures as a filament or discharge arc, the “rated laboratory life” is determined in accordance with sections 4.3 and 4.9 of SAE Recommended Practice J2009 FEB93, Forward Discharge Lighting Systems (incorporated by reference, see 571.108 S5.2 of this title).

    S11.4 Physical tests.

    S11.4.1 Each replaceable light source must be designed to conform with the performance requirements of the deflection test and pressure test requirements of S14.7.

    S11.4.2 Replaceable light sources must be designed to conform with the requirements of section VII of appendix A of part 564 of this chapter, or section IV of appendix B of part 564 of this chapter, for maximum power and luminous flux when test by the procedure of S14.7.3.
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 10-21-2018 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Consolidate 2 posts into 1

  4. #4

    Default Re: Sienna LED Upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by Tunafish View Post
    What qualifies you to give legal advice?
    Welcome to the board, Mr. or Ms. new poster. Please take a few deep breaths and adjust your tone and attitude -- do a little more listening and a little less mouthing off, at least at first.

    You give the appearance of speaking English well enough that you probably know making a post on a web board identifying an illegitimate and illegal lighting component as illegitimate and illegal isn't actually anything like "giving legal advice", so let's dial down the overheated hype.

    I have read why its a bad idea in the sticky
    Good! Sometimes new posters who barge onto this board shouting about how wrong stuff is on here will also fail to actually read relevant content. So good on you for having made some effort. Thanks for that.

    but that thread is four years old now
    ...and still every bit as correct as it was on the day it was written.

    I have not found this text though have looked though many pages of the laws.
    You haven't looked at the right pages, and you haven't understood those pages you have read. It looks like you're crowing about having not found any text that reads LEDs may not be used as replacements for halogen bulbs in headlamps. Which you're not going to find, because that's not how technical regulations are written.

    This is the complete section dealing with light sources
    Well, no. It's one part of one of the apposite chunks of statutory text.

    Where is the law that states LED' are illegal as you claim?
    Part of it is in the very first paragraph of the portion you quoted from Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 108:

    S11 Replaceable light source requirements. Each replaceable light source must be designed to conform to the dimensions and electrical specifications furnished with respect to it pursuant to part 564 of this chapter, on file in Docket No. NHTSA 98-3397

    There are no retrofit LED bulbs that conform to the dimensions and electrical specifications for any halogen bulb type as specified in the Part 564 docket.

    LEDs are now the exact location and size of a halogen filament
    Maybe in some cases, but that's only two of the many different light source parameters that have to be correct for the headlamp to comply with the law and work in an effective, safe, and legal manner when installed in a headlamp. And even if the emitters on an "LED bulb" are the same size and in the same location as a filament would be, they're still not the same shape or orientation because there are no cylinder-shaped LEDs, and the backer boards and heat sinks create significant shadows where there's supposed to be light.

    So that's one big reason why "LED bulbs" fail to comply with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 108.

    Also, separately, there is the issue of selling vehicle equipment which, when installed, takes the vehicle out of compliance with any applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. A good example of that is bulbs for lamps other than headlamps: they aren't directly regulated by FMVSS 108 (or any other), but if I sell bulbs that physically fit in the turn signals, brake lights, etc of a vehicle certified as compliant with all applicable FMVSS requirements, and my bulb causes those lights to no longer perform in a compliant manner, I can wind up wearing significant legal liability for it. The same applies to "LED bulbs" for headlamps: even if I magically manage to come up with an LED bulb that complies with all the requirements for one of the halogen bulb types in Part 564, if it changes the performance of a headlamp in ways that make the beam pattern noncompliant, my bulb is still illegal.

    S11.4.1 Each replaceable light source must be designed to conform with the performance requirements of the deflection test and pressure test requirements of S14.7.
    Few or none of the "LED bulbs" on the market comply with this provision (and most of them couldn't pass if they were tested).

    S11.4.2 Replaceable light sources must be designed to conform with the requirements of section VII of appendix A of part 564 of this chapter, or section IV of appendix B of part 564 of this chapter, for maximum power and luminous flux when test by the procedure of S14.7.3.
    Ditto here: most or all of the "LED bulbs" on the market can't meet these requirements.

    But let's say a genie appeared one night while you were washing dishes and happened to rub a particular saucepan just right, and granted you three wishes, and you wished for those cylinder-shaped LEDs, and *POOF* now you have them. You use them to build an LED bulb that complies with every requirement for the type of halogen bulb we intend to replace (H11, or 9006, or whatever). You build the LED bulb to pass the deflection and pressure test requirements of S14.7. You specify the emitters so the amount of light is the same as the halogen bulb. You used one of your other genie-wishes to make these cylinder-shaped emitters have extremely high luminous efficacy, say 500 Lm/W, so to get the 1000 lumens for the 9006 you need only a 2W device, so you can just have your cylinder-shaped emitter suspended by its lead wires in exactly, precisely the same place as a filament -- no backer board to cast shadows. The light distribution is truly an exact match for the halogen bulb. But you're still not looking at a legal bulb, because there are requirements specific to LED lighting devices. They have to pass tests for output at a range of ambient temperatures, and for lumen maintenance with extended operation, because LEDs' output drops with increased temperature. These are challenging tests even for legitimate LED lamps without the constraints imposed by having to match the physical form factor of a halogen bulb, and those constraints make it even harder.

    That said, there is hope on the horizon; eventually that "why it's a bad idea" post will have to be modified. Not tomorrow, but eventually. See here.
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 10-21-2018 at 08:14 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Sienna LED Upgrade

    I disagree that why LED's are bad in projector headlights is still relavent today. You have the same cut off halogens with more usable light.

    They do have 360 LED string but it hasn't made its way to headlamps yet. They are being used in signal lamps.

    Part 564 we both know has no actual measurements and definitely doesn't mention changing the performance, so anything pertaining to that can be thrown out.

    S14.7 defection test, hit bulb with four pound of force, four times in a square. Pretty much if you LED falls off it doesn't pass because there is no movement. Pressure test, seal locking base and in a sealed container around the bulb and add 10 psi of pressure, must not leak out the connection side. That one can easy be done with LED's but not sure if it is being done.

    S14.7.3 only spec is 12.8v for test voltage. Says to look at part 564 but see above.

    Now if you have actual laws that you can post like I did in text. Then we can talk.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Sienna LED Upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by Tunafish View Post
    I disagree
    That's clear to see. Also clear to see: your opinion is based on a complete lack of understanding of the facts and laws involved. You are wrong.

    You have the same cut off
    Sure, with a projector you'll have more or less the same cutoff shape no matter what kind of a light source you cram in. The light distribution under the cutoff is what's important, and with "LED bulbs" it's not a proper distribution of light.

    They do have 360 LED string but it hasn't made its way to headlamps yet. They are being used in signal lamps.
    Whatever meaning this collection of words might have in your head, didn't make it to the text on screen.

    Part 564 we both know has no actual measurements
    Actually, it does. Many of them, for each and every bulb type. It's a little baffling how you managed to look at Part 564 and not see them; perhaps you didn't actually look.

    and definitely doesn't mention changing the performance
    The requirement for performance as specified in Part 564 is in the S11 text that you've already shown you know is in FMVSS 108. Clearly you're having a fair amount of trouble understanding what you're reading -- and it looks like that might be in part because you really, really, really want the facts to be other than they are.

    so anything pertaining to that can be thrown out.
    Ignoring inconvenient facts and aspects of reality is a common tactic for little kids to use when they're having an argument, but it has no place in adult discussions where we cope with the actual facts that exist in reality, not the pretend ones we'd have in a make-believe world.

    S14.7 defection test, hit bulb with four pound of force, four times in a square. Pretty much if you LED falls off it doesn't pass because there is no movement.
    More word-salad. And it's not a "defection test".

    Now if you have actual laws that you can post like I did in text.
    Asked and answered, sir or madam. Again, the regulatory text you put up (a section of FMVSS 108) contains the prohibition you continue to claim doesn't exist. You don't appear to have anything but inconsiderate "is not! is not! is not!" type of squabbling to add to this conversation, and all the relevant information's been provided, so we'll be closing it.
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 10-22-2018 at 12:50 PM.

  7. #7
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sienna LED Upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by Tunafish View Post
    I disagree that why LED's are bad in projector headlights is still relavent today. You have the same cut off halogens with more usable light.
    Cutoff is not the be-all, end-all to headlamp performance, efficacy, and safety. More usable light (which you DON'T get with these LED toys) can be more glaring for other drivers. It can also be too much light too near to the vehicle, ruining your own night vision.

    They do have 360 LED string but it hasn't made its way to headlamps yet.
    A filament radiates light in very nearly 4π steradians (the π symbol is "pi", in case it doesn't display correctly, or is unknown to you). A perfect filament would be point-size and emit light in a perfect sphere, but of course they aren't *actually* point-size nor can they radiate light in a perfect sphere, given the filament's non-emissive parts will shadow the emissive parts, and the filament supports additionally shadow (and reflect, as optical noise) light from the filament. Light emission in 360 degrees would be at best planar or multiplanar (resembling cylindric three-dimensional space) taking into account filament length, but we're working with solid, not plane, geometry here.

    Part 564 we both know has no actual measurements
    The Part 564 you know has no actual measurements because you simply do not know it. The Part 564 Virgil and I know has actual measurements. This is how I know certain things about the HB1:

    From NHTSA-98-3397-10 (Docket 93-11, Information on the Replaceable Light Source Type HB1)
    Maximum power and luminous flux shall be as follows:
    MAXIMUM POWER ON THE LOWER BEAM 50 WATTS
    MAXIMUM POWER ON THE UPPER BEAM 70 WATTS
    LUMINOUS FLUX IN LUMENS ON THE LOWER BEAM 700 ±15%
    LUMINOUS FLUX IN LUMENS ON THE UPPER BEAM 1200 ±15%
    It's how I know that the bulb seal assembly of the HB4 must withstand a minimum of 69kPa (10PSI) of pressure when inserted in a cylindric aperture of 22.22 (±0.10mm). It's in there. It's a matter of public record.

    S14.7 defection test, hit bulb with four pound of force, four times in a square.
    The deflection test is but one test. If your bulb-shaped toy doesn't snap off it doesn't mean it performs effectively or is legal.

    There's a variety of electrical, optical, and mechanical specifications for replaceable light sources. And it's all in 49 CFR Part 564. We're not your search engine. All we can say is if you didn't find information that is there, you didn't know the search terms (from either a "what to type in" or "what do words mean?" standpoint, or both), then try to refine your search when you gain a greater understanding of the subject.

    Now if you have actual laws that you can post like I did in text. Then we can talk.
    You're basing your argument, in part, on your inability to find correct information. It also depends on your misapprehension of optics in general, when referring to the emission pattern of a 3-dimensional light source as being 2-dimensional. Your inability to find information does not mean you get to make stuff up as you go along and try to present it as facts.
    Last edited by Alaric Darconville; 10-22-2018 at 02:28 PM.

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