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Thread: Are some retro fits getting there?

  1. #1
    Flashaholic* Christoph's Avatar
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    Default Are some retro fits getting there?

    Started following a thread at another site talking about LED replacements for H4 and more. From the discussion and pictures it seems like they are getting there. Discussion only please.
    C
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 10-19-2018 at 10:41 AM. Reason: Maybe not intentional shilling, but even the unintentional kind isn't allowed
    Chris

  2. #2

    Default Re: Are some retro fits getting there?

    The basic answer to your question is that legitimate LED retrofits for halogen headlight bulbs are gradually becoming technically feasible, but we're not quite there yet. We're still in the early stages where a few of the LED retrofits work passably-to-reasonably well in certain headlamps, but we're still not to the point where there's an LED retrofit bulb of any type (say, H4 or 9006 or whatever other kind) that dependably works acceptably well in every/any headlamp designed to take that kind of bulb.

    (Also, when acceptable retrofits do come into existence, they will not be sold under nonbrands through fly-by-night operators on Alibaba for $25/pair...these are clues...)

    The SAE Lighting Committee has a task force working to define and describe the design and function parameters necessary to make a technically acceptable LED retrofit bulb, and the major-name brands are fielding early-version products, unfortunately following the same path of questionable ethics and legality that they've been following on LED retrofits for signal bulbs: not really legal, but there are loopholes in the way the regs are written that they sneak through. First line of products totally unsafe in any application (first Sylvania Zevo LED retrofits, with the plastic dome). Make money off of that, "for interior and off-road use only" [nudge-nudge, wink-wink], then put out a second line of products not really safe in a large number of applications, but they just pretend that problem doesn't exist (see here for example).

    There has never been a shortage of bogus claims for illegitimate products. First the maker or vendor makes the claims, then they're picked up and regurgitated -- and elaborated, like a fishing story where the fish gets bigger every time the story is told -- by eager enthusiasts who (1) want reality to be different than it is, and/or (2) want to feel validated in their purchase decisions, and/or (3) want to feel important, like dispensers of wisdom. This is modern "viral" marketing, and it's very effective. Truth and reality have nothing to do with it.

    As far as the "retrofits" being discussed in the thread you saw: total nonstarter. There's a guy pushing them hard, claiming to be involved in aerospace engineering so he can't really discuss the details and all kinds of other cloak-and-dagger baloney; Dan Stern forwarded me a conversation he had with that guy, and the guy is just completely full of beans: really does not know even the basics of how headlamps work, but he's sure his guesses and assumptions are good enough. Claims to be an aerospace engineer but rants for paragraph after paragraph and page after page about how he has no use for people who talk about measurements and numbers, because they don't know what they're talking about in the real world (ummm...every real engineer I know spends most of their professional time dealing with measurements and numbers so as to create the things we have in the real world), etc.

    He sent Stern samples of the retrofit you saw discussed in that thread. Stern tried them in a bunch of headlamps...with lousy results every time. As he related it to me: "At least the "aerospace engineer" was telling the truth, just not the way he thought: you don't need measurements to tell these are a complete nonstarter." He sent the samples on to me for a second set of eyes on 'em, and...yup, he's right; they're a total joke. There is no evidence of knowledgeable or informed engineering in these at all; there are very basic mistakes in their design and construction, and they don't even physically fit in a fair number of the headlamps they're supposedly designed for (kind of an important gate to pass before we even get to the pickier questions of whether they work). Those headlamps they fit in, they fail in.

    Pictures: No. A picture will give a clue as to how bad a beam pattern might be, but won't inform as to how good it might be. Understandable details are described here.
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 10-21-2018 at 06:21 PM.

  3. #3
    Flashaholic* Christoph's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are some retro fits getting there?

    I thank you for your response. The discussion only quip was so that I did not get flamed for putting the "Question" I asked out there. (that's why all my H4 housings have H4 halogen bulbs in them) I am very aware of the rules here, and I DO want to hear how unsafe they are and I know that they are illegal to install in road going vehicles. I have been here a few years and am patiently waiting for the day. I don't have any "wish" here other than to learn as much as I can about the things that interest me. Namely lighting products and the direction they are going. I was halfway through that thread mentioned when I put this question out and have since found that there is no rainbow unicorn p@#p here. I will keep looking, I'm glad this guy is known to the lighting community. Yes alibaba is not where I go to get things however the same products are peddled on amazon under a different badge as well(not that that gives them any legitimacy as far as being usable just an observation) This is why I come here to keep abreast of the new stuff since early 2001.
    Thanks -Virgil-
    Chris

  4. #4

    Default Re: Are some retro fits getting there?

    Who is this guy Stern was talking to? Paul McCain? As far as I know he's the only guy who even claims to have some sort of engineering background while peddling these LED scams.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Are some retro fits getting there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ls400 View Post
    Who is this guy Stern was talking to? Paul McCain?
    The name on the forwarded emails is "Paul Raab", and he calls the thread that Christoph read, "his thread". As of last March he was claiming to be a Senior Systems Engineer (RF/EE/CS) for Space Vector Corporation of Chatsworth, California.

    Without posting the entire email conversation here, not least because I don't have permission from at least one party to it, here is a small excerpt of what this Mr. Raab has to say:

    I am an engineer (and photographer, astronomer) with a lot of back ground. I have to be indirect since I work in the aerospace industry. I bite my lip when people get wrapped around numbers and rules. I see the bigger picture. I have been a electronic test engineer most my life building instrumentation system. I know metrics. The rules seem to be written tight, so that it forces manufactures' to make consistent products. So It does not allow for product improvement.. I do not need a light lab....remember Einstein did not have a computer and we put men on the moon with slide rules, paper and pencils....Ansel Adams did not use a light meter.....the current H4 (9003) halogen bulbs filaments are not in the exact place per the OEM drawings....You do not really understand the DOT H4 specification. It is a partial facade to hide OEM intellectual property. That is why there is missing information, drawing mistakes, and window values that are very wide. You have not done the math. You made the mistake that the OEM gave DOT all that is needed to know. Wake up. I am an Engineer. Wake up. The world has past by you. But, you have fallen into your own trap.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Are some retro fits getting there?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    The basic answer to your question is that legitimate LED retrofits for halogen headlight bulbs are gradually becoming technically feasible, but we're not quite there yet. We're still in the early stages where a few of the LED retrofits work passably-to-reasonably well in certain headlamps,
    Do you have any pictures or diagrams of the prototypes? Or at least a description?

  7. #7
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are some retro fits getting there?

    we put men on the moon with slide rules, paper and pencils
    And those women with the slide rules, paper, and pencils just made up numbers. Whenever someone wanted to calculate the thrust needed to reach escape velocity, or amount of strain applied to the fuselage, they bit their lips, because they saw the bigger picture. Wake up, sheeple!

    Hoo, boy.

  8. #8
    Flashaholic* Hilldweller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are some retro fits getting there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaric Darconville View Post
    we put men on the moon with slide rules, paper and pencils
    And those women with the slide rules, paper, and pencils just made up numbers. Whenever someone wanted to calculate the thrust needed to reach escape velocity, or amount of strain applied to the fuselage, they bit their lips, because they saw the bigger picture. Wake up, sheeple!

    Hoo, boy.
    It was all faked...

  9. #9
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are some retro fits getting there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilldweller View Post
    It was all faked...
    :LOL:

  10. #10

    Default Re: Are some retro fits getting there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilldweller View Post
    It was all faked...
    Jasonok likes this it makes him lol

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