could my headlamps be toast?

I'm at a complete loss as to what is going on. I have a '13 RAV4 and the headlamps are immaculate at least on the exterior. No hazing, fogging, none of that. I put in some Philips 9011s and the low-beam performance was great. They were the best lights I had ever sat behind. I left the car sitting for a few months, and when I returned to it, the lights are beyond dim. I had to pull over and check the bulbs on the side of the highway several times to make sure they weren't actually burned out--that was how bad it was. I installed a relay harness I had pulled from another car on the side of the highway too and it helped somewhat.

Now, I've already tested for the obvious stuff. The battery is fresh, it read at about 12.6 volts with the car off. With the car running, I'm getting about 13.6 volts across the battery terminals. I'm using a relay harness, and when I measure the voltage at the ends of the harness, I'm also getting about 13.6 volts with the car running. I took the car to the dealership for a check of the electrical system. Everything checks out. I inspected the bulbs. The capsule is clear, with no hazing. The filaments look fine--there's nothing obviously out of alignment or damaged. The bulbs are firmly seated in place.

I feel that I've checked everything. I've checked the condition of the headlamp lens, the bulbs, the voltage at multiple locations, and everything checks out. The one thing that remains is the condition of the reflectors inside the lamps. The car has low-beam projectors and I obviously can't inspect the reflector bowl. That's the only thing that I can think of. Could the lamps be toast on the inside? Is there a way I can test? Perhaps the most conclusive test would be buying a new, OEM headlamp assembly and testing the old and new assemblies side by side...but I'd rather not perform such an expensive experiment. Perhaps I should try new bulbs first? But why would bulbs that look perfectly fine be underperforming?

Ls400 said:

I left the car sitting for a few months, and when I returned to it, the lights are beyond dim.

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Are the electrical contacts free of corrosion at the bulb connection?

Can you measure the current in the bulb circuit?

The contacts look free of corrosion when I stuck my test leads in them. The whole car is generally free of corrosion. I'll see if I can test the amperage with my multimeter.

Could be a poor ground. The voltage reaching the headlights might be fine, but if it can't flow to ground properly, weird things happen. Ever notice some older vehicles where the high beams are dimly lit? Bad ground.

Besides basic voltage checks, you should measure voltage drop. I recommend checking out South Main Auto channel on YouTube. Eric is a top notch mechanic. He explains these things and has valuable tips and tricks to diagnose electrical gremlins.

Good luck, and keep us posted! (I don't come here often though haha)

CanadianGuy said:

Could be a poor ground. The voltage reaching the headlights might be fine, but if it can't flow to ground properly, weird things happen. Ever notice some older vehicles where the high beams are dimly lit? Bad ground.

Besides basic voltage checks, you should measure voltage drop. I recommend checking out South Main Auto channel on YouTube. Eric is a top notch mechanic. He explains these things and has valuable tips and tricks to diagnose electrical gremlins.

Good luck, and keep us posted! (I don't come here often though haha)

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Thanks, I think you hit the problem on its head. I did notice some electrical gremlins a while ago, along with the dim lights. The A/C fan would drastically slow down whenever I hit the brakes. I could have the A/C blowing at full blast and if I stopped for a light, the A/C would just go quiet for a moment. Also, when turning, there was a sloshing sound coming from the A/C blower fan area. Turned out that the sloshing was the result of a clogged A/C condensate drain tube. After draining the gallon or so of water trapped in the system, the sloshing went away, along with the issue of the fan slowing down whenever I hit the brakes. I can't help but wonder if all these issues are related. Perhaps the excess water trapped in the A/C system caused an electrical fault? Weird thing is that all the A/C issues disappeared after simply draining the water, but the dim lights remained.

I checked out YouTube and found some Scotty Kilmar videos about testing vehicle ground, and sure enough, there were some drastic voltage drops. I get no drop when testing the battery and engine block itself, but when testing other unpainted metal surfaces in the engine compartment, I get anywhere from a 0.4 V to a 9 V drop!

Ls400 said:

I'm using a relay harness, and when I measure the voltage at the ends of the harness, I'm also getting about 13.6 volts with the car running.

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Checking the floating voltage at the socket terminals and checking for voltage drop *under load* are two different things. You must test them under load, with the headlamps on and bulbs installed, according to the this page (Go to the "How to Measure Voltage Drop" section). The same wire that passes 13.6V at 250ma may pass only 11.8V at 4.5A.

Ls400 said:

The A/C fan would drastically slow down whenever I hit the brakes. I could have the A/C blowing at full blast and if I stopped for a light, the A/C would just go quiet for a moment.

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The clogged condensate drain not only was responsible for the sloshing sounds, but when braking, the condensate might have sloshed forward enough to trigger a float or sensor to shut off the A/C, so that it wouldn't just keep running and eventually overflow into the cabin.

I get no drop when testing the battery and engine block itself, but when testing other unpainted metal surfaces in the engine compartment, I get anywhere from a 0.4 V to a 9 V drop!

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Frame grounds, unless at the factory grounding points (and those only if in good condition) are poor grounds.

Alaric Darconville said:

Checking the floating voltage at the socket terminals and checking for voltage drop *under load* are two different things. You must test them under load, with the headlamps on and bulbs installed, according to the this page (Go to the "How to Measure Voltage Drop" section). The same wire that passes 13.6V at 250ma may pass only 11.8V at 4.5A.

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Thank you for the help. Stern's page was very helpful. I performed his voltage drop test procedure as written. I get a combined drop of about 0.030-0.040 volts. This, to me, seems like a minuscule and therefore normal voltage drop. What could be the issue then? Could I just be imagining things here, like that my headlights aren't as good as before??

Alaric Darconville said:

The clogged condensate drain not only was responsible for the sloshing sounds, but when braking, the condensate might have sloshed forward enough to trigger a float or sensor to shut off the A/C, so that it wouldn't just keep running and eventually overflow into the cabin.

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Each time I braked or turned and the condensate sloshed around, I would hear an odd noise. The sound would only stop after I had completed the turn or come to a complete stop. Imagine cooking something with a skillet. Before you let the skillet cool down, you douse it with water in the sink. That's the noise I would hear. Another way I would describe it is that it sounded like a shower of sparks. I can't help but wonder if all the water back there damaged some of the electronics. I know that the blower fan is literally an inch or two away from the ECU and a lot of wiring in most Toyotas/Lexuses.

Alaric Darconville said:

Frame grounds, unless at the factory grounding points (and those only if in good condition) are poor grounds.

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Yeah, that's what my buddy told me too. However, I tested an old '99 Sienna, and no matter where I probed with my multimeter, I couldn't find a hint of a voltage drop anywhere. I tested unpainted metal A/C lines, the engine block, the hood latch, heat shields, etc. The engine bay was probably covered with an inch of sludge and I measured no voltage drop after poking my test leads through all the sludge. I'm no expert in diagnosing automotive issues though and I really appreciate all the help so far. I just can't imagine why my perception of the lights have changed so drastically over such a short period of time.

Also of note--I was at the dealership service reception area and saw an '18 RAV4 with its lights on, shining at the wall. Now, I know that wall shots are pretty much worthless, but I noticed that its bi-halogen 9012s created a nicely defined hotspot on the wall. When I drove up to the wall, my dedicated 9011 low-beam projectors barely lit up the wall at all. I could see nary a hotspot either. I'm just so confused.

Ls400 said:

Thank you for the help. Stern's page was very helpful. I performed his voltage drop test procedure as written. I get a combined drop of about 0.030-0.040 volts. This, to me, seems like a minuscule

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Seems suspiciously low. All the bulbs were hooked up when you did this test?

I tested an old '99 Sienna, and no matter where I probed with my multimeter, I couldn't find a hint of a voltage drop anywhere. I tested unpainted metal A/C lines, the engine block, the hood latch, heat shields

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This, like your minuscule readings above, sounds like an error in test procedure.

Well I didn't have any high beams installed for unrelated reasons but all the other lights were there. I turned on only the lows and probed a section of exposed wiring leading up to the lit up low beam bulb. I'll go ahead and find some 9005s lying around and plug them into the highs and test again.

-Virgil- said:

This, like your minuscule readings above, sounds like an error in test procedure.

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Well for the '99 Sienna I didn't follow Stern's procedures. I did a quick and dirty voltage drop test on the Sienna before I was informed about Stern's procedure by simply connecting one probe of my multimeter to the + battery terminal and the other probe to various unpainted metal parts in the engine bay. I got massive drops doing this procedure on the RAV4 and basically 0 drop doing this on the Sienna.

I repeated the procedure this time with the high beams in place but not on. The car was off with the low beams on. I got the same measurements.

I also started the car and measured the voltage drop with just the lows on and I got a slightly bigger drop of about 0.060 volts. Still seems minuscule.

With the car running and both the highs and lows on, I get a combined voltage drop of about 0.100 volts. That still doesn't seem like a whole lot. Even if it were, I'm still running the low beams off a quality wiring harness from SMS/Rallylights. I couldn't find an area on the harness itself to probe easily, so I just probed the factory wiring. I'd think that with the wiring harness, I should be getting less than 0.1 volts of drop to the low bams.

Ls400 said:

I left the car sitting for a few months, and when I returned to it, the lights are beyond dim.

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If you are able to somewhat comfortably look directly at the high beam lamp, sitting directly in front of it about 5 feet away, when it's on (which would really tell us if they are "beyond dim") but you're losing only .1V in your headlighting circuit, you're measuring wrong somewhere for sure.

Ls400 said:

I did a quick and dirty voltage drop test on the Sienna by simply connecting one probe of my multimeter to the + battery terminal and the other probe to various unpainted metal parts in the engine bay.

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That's not a test that's really going to tell you anything useful with regards to your headlamps.

Anyway, it's sounding more and more like there's something physically wrong with your headlamps and/or the bulbs they contain.

Alaric Darconville said:

If you are able to somewhat comfortably look directly at the high beam lamp, sitting directly in front of it about 5 feet away, when it's on (which would really tell us if they are "beyond dim") but you're losing only .1V in your headlighting circuit, you're measuring wrong somewhere for sure.

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Well, my issue isn't really with the high beams; it's with the low beams. My subjective impression of the car went from "Wow, this is the best set of headlamps I've ever sat behind, bar none; driving this car at night is awesome" to "Wow, I barely feel safe driving at 25 MPH in my own neighborhood at night." I don't use the high beams enough to really gauge their performance because of too much oncoming traffic where I'm at. I'm fairly sure I did the test correctly. This was my test setup:

The '13 RAV4 has side-entry low beam projectors. There are caps/lids that cover the base of the low beam bulb after it's installed for some reason. I don't know why Toyota felt the need to cover the low beam bulbs since they're 9005s, which have a gasket already and are self-sealing if I understand correctly. Anyway, power travels from the alternator to a female plug on the cap. On the other side of the cap there is a male plug, which sticks into the 9005's female connector. On the cap, there are exposed crimps. There are two wires which are crimped to the cap, and one is red, which I assume is the + wire. The other wire I assume is the ground wire. With these facts in mind, I followed Stern's procedure about connecting the + battery terminal to the +/red wire crimp, and the - battery terminal to the ground wire crimp.

Area where I connected multimeter circled in green:

https://imgur.com/a/LmsA7VO

-Virgil- said:

Anyway, it's sounding more and more like there's something physically wrong with your headlamps and/or the bulbs they contain.

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The bulbs are not cloudy and the filaments look straight. Could there still be a problem that I'm just not seeing?

Do you have a link to the Toyota 9011? I was using the Philips 9011s. Might as well try something different this time around. I noticed that you deleted your Amazon link in this thread:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?450769-Best-9012-9011-bulbs-and-where-to-buy-them

Long shot, but is there an empirical test I could perform?

Ls400 said:

Anyway, power travels from the alternator to a female plug on the cap. On the other side of the cap there is a male plug, which sticks into the 9005's female connector. On the cap, there are exposed crimps. There are two wires which are crimped to the cap, and one is red, which I assume is the + wire. The other wire I assume is the ground wire. With these facts in mind, I followed Stern's procedure about connecting the + battery terminal to the +/red wire crimp, and the - battery terminal to the ground wire crimp.

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Just to be clear, you are doing this?

Connect the positive (red) lead of the VOM to the + (positive) battery terminal. Connect the negative (black) lead of the VOM to the + (positive) terminal of the bulb. Mark that reading.

Then connect the positive lead of the VOM to the negative terminal of the bulb, and the negative lead of the VOM to the negative terminal of the battery. Mark that down.

Add the numbers. That's your voltage drop.

Make sure the red/black leads are really in that at the correct position for the leg you're measuring, so you always see a positive non-zero value. Otherwise, you might have a .3V reading on one side and then see -.2V for the other side and then think it's just a .1V loss.

Long shot, but is there an empirical test I could perform?

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Yes, a voltage drop test, done correctly. You could try using a light meter at various test points, but that'd just tell you that yes, the lights are dimmer. A correctly-done voltage drop test will tell you if the bulbs are being fed properly.

Thanks, I'll give that a shot. I'll probably need to "backprobe" the bulbs since I don't see anywhere where I could easily stick my leads in, correct? The Stern page talks about using a paper clip or similar.

I see that you edited your post. I'll get some more experimental test results real quick.

Ls400 said:

Thanks, I'll give that a shot. I'll probably need to "backprobe" the bulbs since I don't see anywhere where I could easily stick my leads in, correct? The Stern page talks about using a paper clip or similar.

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And, to be very clear-- the headlamp is turned ON and the bulb is actually lit during this procedure, right? (Although without a bulb installed and the lights on, you won't see any voltage readings at all, but I just GOTTA ask!)

Also, you want to do the same test for both the passenger and driver side lamp, so you know if one has a more severe problem than the other, and the closer you can get the test probe to the bulbs' own terminals the better.

Yep, my lights were on. I'm getting readings of 0.5 to 0.8 volts of drop now with the lows and highs on.

I believe the issue earlier was that I was testing with my relay harness in place. This time, I decided to tear out the harness. I'm only testing the stock wiring this time. I'm getting readings of 0.5 to 0.8 volts of drop to the lows, depending on which side of the car I'm on and whether the engine is running or not. The passenger side (further from the battery) gives me bigger drops.

I looked directly into the high beams (face was like an inch from the plastic lens) and I wasn't exactly blinded. I felt the heat from the bulb, and they were plenty bright, but I wasn't exactly seeing things after looking away.

I'm still puzzled though. The factory wiring is giving me a rather significant drop, but with the relay harness in place, I'm getting miniscule amounts of drop, as expected. I still don't understand why I think my lights are terrible since I'm always using the harness anyway.

Ls400 said:

Yep, my lights were on. I'm getting readings of 0.5 to 0.8 volts of drop now with the lows and highs on.
I believe the issue earlier was that I was testing with my relay harness in place.

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But how is that the issue? The goal is to measure the voltage drop. The goal is to test whether the bulbs, no matter how many relays and how many feet of wire and sockets and terminations, are getting sufficient voltage to run properly. The goal is to be sure that when the load of the bulb is applied, the voltage does not sag.

With the relays gone, floating voltage is 13.6V, and on the driver's side you're getting from as low as 12.8V (the voltage at which bulb output is rated) to 13.1V. This really shouldn't result in poor lighting. Could it be better? Sure! But is it terrible? Not *really*. Maybe the passenger side is worse (you didn't give us numbers) but the driver's side is mostly acceptable. It's a 2350lm bulb where an 1870lm bulb usually goes.

While projecting on the wall doesn't tell you a whole lot about a lamp's performance, it can point out particular shortcomings. Does the "garage door test" show you a dramatically misshapen beam? Is there a hole in it? Does a hotspot go in a bizzare direction? Those things could signal the bulb is not seated properly, whether not deeply enough, or at an angle.

I looked directly into the high beams (face was like an inch from the plastic lens) and I wasn't exactly blinded. I felt the heat from the bulb, and they were plenty bright, but I wasn't exactly seeing things after looking away.

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There's something definitely wrong. You should be seeing spots after that. Five feet may be better than 1" just because of focal lengths and stuff.

Alaric Darconville said:

But how is that the issue? The goal is to measure the voltage drop. The goal is to test whether the bulbs, no matter how many relays and how many feet of wire and sockets and terminations, are getting sufficient voltage to run properly. The goal is to be sure that when the load of the bulb is applied, the voltage does not sag.

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I mean when I was getting voltage drops in the range of 0.010 volts, and Virgil and you noted that these results seem too low to be true.

Alaric Darconville said:

With the relays gone, floating voltage is 13.6V, and on the driver's side you're getting from as low as 12.8V (the voltage at which bulb output is rated) to 13.1V. This really shouldn't result in poor lighting. Could it be better? Sure! But is it terrible? Not *really*. Maybe the passenger side is worse (you didn't give us numbers) but the driver's side is mostly acceptable. It's a 2350lm bulb where an 1870lm bulb usually goes.

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The passenger side is closer to 0.7-0.8 volts of drop, while the driver's side has about 0.5 volts of drop.

Alaric Darconville said:

While projecting on the wall doesn't tell you a whole lot about a lamp's performance, it can point out particular shortcomings. Does the "garage door test" show you a dramatically misshapen beam? Is there a hole in it? Does a hotspot go in a bizzare direction? Those things could signal the bulb is not seated properly, whether not deeply enough, or at an angle.

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I don't see anything obviously wrong apart from that the hotspot on the drivers' side appears to be somewhat bigger than the passenger side. Same shape--it's like a semicircle with the flat side formed by the cutoff, except one appears bigger.

There's something definitely wrong. You should be seeing spots after that. Five feet may be better than 1" just because of focal lengths and stuff.

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I'll give it a shot!

I do note that my Stanley battery charger with a "patented" alternator check function said that my alternator was bad when I have the car on and idling with the accessories (radio, A/C) running. Under load, it outputs about 13.2 volts. That's not terrible, especially if I'm only getting 0.5-0.8 volts of drop; like you said, I'd just be running my bulbs at 12.8 or somewhat below. But I'm also using a relay harness, which brings the voltage back up to about 13.2.

Ls400 said:

I mean when I was getting voltage drops in the range of 0.010 volts, and Virgil and you noted that these results seem too low to be true.

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That's got to be some heavy-gauge, silver-plated copper wire with super short runs to be one 1/100th of a volt total loss, not that it's *impossible* but still.

The passenger side is closer to 0.7-0.8 volts of drop, while the driver's side has about 0.5 volts of drop.

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So, for the passenger, 12.8 or 12.9V, and the driver side 13.1V. Passenger side has a little room for improvement-- and don't forget in the winter when you're running the heater and defroster and everything, your start voltage is a bit lower so you would want the headroom afforded by good relays.

I don't see anything obviously wrong apart from that the hotspot on the drivers' side appears to be somewhat bigger than the passenger side. Same shape--it's like a semicircle with the flat side formed by the cutoff, except one appears bigger.

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"Somewhat bigger" vs. "just slightly bigger" signals a focus problem. If "just slightly bigger", you could account for that with the higher voltage improving the intensity of the hotspot such that it looks just slightly bigger. But "somewhat bigger" really sounds like focus (bulb seating/alignment) could be an issue.