late 90s/early 2000s cars with good headlamps?

Ls400

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I'm looking to replace my $800 '98 LS400. It was a fun project car but it has unfortunately passed onto the afterlife. I went to a vehicle auction and saw a lot of LS430s in good condition for cheap. The supply of cars isn't the issue--the dearth of information about older Japanese cars' headlamp systems is the issue. I've never sat behind a pair of legitimate LED or HID lights, and I'm wondering if I should seek out an older LS430 or similar with a xenon lighting system, or if my curiosity is misplaced, and that these systems just aren't worth seeking out over standard halogen setups.

I know that some LS400s came with D2R systems and that the LS430s came with both D2R and D2S systems. I can't even find a smidge of information regarding the LS's on CPF, apart from Alaric's comment that LS430s have a "very wide beam." The various HID engineers at TRS and elsewhere on the Internet seem to share this sentiment, but what about distance performance?

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-headlights!&p=5200547&viewfull=1#post5200547

So, my questions are: regarding late 90s LS400s, is the D2R system superior to the halogen system? Between the LS400 and LS430, which has the better headlamp system? Why does it seem that many older Japanese vehicles use D2R lamps? Seems as if D2S lamps can be built to be more compact as well as higher-performing because D2S bulbs are brighter than D2R bulbs.
 

-Virgil-

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(should I) seek out an older LS430 or similar with a xenon lighting system, or if my curiosity is misplaced, and that these systems just aren't worth seeking out over standard halogen setups.

Yes, the Xenon systems are better.

I know that some LS400s came with D2R systems and that the LS430s came with both D2R and D2S systems.

That is true. Either of them will be better than the halogens. Of course that assumes headlamps in good condition, operating properly, and correctly aimed.

The various HID engineers at TRS

What makes you think there are any "HID engineers" (or any other kinds of engineers) at TRS?

Why does it seem that many older Japanese vehicles use D2R lamps?

Because that was the fashion among Japanese automakers at that time. Not exclusively, but widely. Sort of like BMW used projector headlamps almost exclusively in the first half of the '90s, while Mercedes used reflectors almost exclusively in that same timeframe.

Seems as if D2S lamps can be built to be more compact

D2S bulbs are used in projector-type headlamps; D2R in reflector-type lamps. Projectors can be smaller in front aspect (height and width), but they are usually deeper than reflectors.

as well as higher-performing because D2S bulbs are brighter than D2R bulbs.

No, the D2S is not "brighter" than the D2R. The D2S puts out more light than the D2R, which is not the same thing as being "brighter"; they are both about the same brightness. And more lumens from a D2S than from a D2R does not necessarily mean more light on the road from a headlamp that uses D2S rather than D2R.
 

Ls400

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What makes you think there are any "HID engineers" (or any other kinds of engineers) at TRS?

Sorry, forgot the ;-).

Because that was the fashion among Japanese automakers at that time. Not exclusively, but widely. Sort of like BMW used projector headlamps almost exclusively in the first half of the '90s, while Mercedes used reflectors almost exclusively in that same timeframe.

Unrelated but was there a clear-cut advantage for either German company in terms of headlamp performance in the first half of the '90s? I keep reading tidbits of "knowledge" from our aforementioned esteemed engineers such as "E46 projectors are poor performers." I also keep reading a lot of hoopla about how the W140 was the last S-class to be engineered "without regard to cost" which really makes me wonder whether its engineering was actually superior to other cars, which were presumably engineered to cost.

No, the D2S is not "brighter" than the D2R. The D2S puts out more light than the D2R, which is not the same thing as being "brighter"; they are both about the same brightness. And more lumens from a D2S than from a D2R does not necessarily mean more light on the road from a headlamp that uses D2S rather than D2R.

Thanks for setting me straight on that. Why is it that HIDs for reflector housings have that black band? Is it physically impossible to design a reflector headlamp for a HID bulb without the black band?

Also, for the LS430, I think that the earlier years came with a choice of halogen and D2R and the later years came with an option of D2S. Any preference between the earlier ones with D2R optics and the later ones with D2S optics?
 
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-Virgil-

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Sorry, forgot the ;-)
Yeah, that changes the tone of voice. :)

was there a clear-cut advantage for either German company in terms of headlamp performance in the first half of the '90s?
I was hoping you weren't going to ask that, because my answer kind of breaks down if you look at it too hard. Yes, the headlamps on the Beemers of that time were (much) better than the ones on the Benzes. It didn't necessarily have to be that way; Mercedes could have put reflector headlights that were at least as good as the BMW projectors, or even better. The technology existed on an "off the shelf" basis. But for the most part Mercedes chose to stick with primitive, minimal headlamp technology in that timeframe. They started improving their lights on their high-volume models around 1995 or so.

I keep reading tidbits of "knowledge" from our aforementioned esteemed engineers such as "E46 projectors are poor performers."

Yeah...you're right to use those sarcasm-quotes; most of that "knowledge" has a foundation made of quicksand instead of concrete; they judge by what they think they see when they shine the lights on the garage door at their parents' house, and how sharp the cutoff looks, and how much purple/blue fringe is above it, and other irrelevant stuff like that.

I also keep reading a lot of hoopla about how the W140 was the last S-class to be engineered "without regard to cost"

Yeah, every denomination of the Fanboy religion has its own holy mythology. There is no such thing as a mass-production car "engineered without regard to cost" -- that is a lot of claptrap. The W140 headlights were better than the W126 (etc) headlights, but the W140 headlights were not the world's finest, and they sure were not "cost-no-object" items.

Why is it that HIDs for reflector housings have that black band?

Because the light source in an HID bulb has fuzzy edges gradually tapering down from bright to dark, unlike the sharp bright/dark edge zone of a filament. A low beam, especially a European-type low beam, needs a sharper light/dark boundary at the top of the beam than it's possible to get with reflector optics without a shadow mask on the bulb.

Is it physically impossible to design a reflector headlamp for a HID bulb without the black band?

No, but it's not going to have anything like a cutoff, and its hot spot will have to be lower than optimal to comply with the glare limits near the horizon. Ford did it with their Lincoln Mark VIII, in both the pre and post facelift headlamps. That was a big fiasco with non-standard bulbs and electronics, very unreliable, and Ford wound up putting out a retrofit kit with new lamps and wiring adaptors to go back to halogen.

Also, for the LS430, I think that the earlier years came with a choice of halogen and D2R and the later years came with an option of D2S.

I think that's right. If I were choosing, I would try to get a later car with the D2S projectors. But I probably wouldn't let that be the controlling factor in my car purchase decision.
 

CeeBee

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Maybe some BMW's headlights were good in the early 90's, but the ones in my '93 316 weren't. As a matter of fact they were the worst headlights I have ever had the misfortune to try to drive with. They were the Euro model projectors for low with a separate non projector for hi beam. The low beams lacked any sort of spread (they barely lit up to the to width of the road) and the length of beam was so short as to be dangerous. And before you ask, they were professionally aimed twice with an aiming machine.
The early 2000 models didn't fare any better. Auto Bild, the German car magazine, did a headlight comparison test with several models of cars. (The tests I believe were conducted by ADAC), and while the zenon equiped models weren't too bad, the halogen equiped models were, as far as I can remember their words, "great lights for out of town driving - as long as you are following someone else closely!"
My cousin's Mercedes 200, also of mid 90's manufacture also has halogen lights (he still has it). They are quite good.
 

Ls400

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Yeah...you're right to use those sarcasm-quotes; most of that "knowledge" has a foundation made of quicksand instead of concrete; they judge by what they think they see when they shine the lights on the garage door at their parents' house, and how sharp the cutoff looks, and how much purple/blue fringe is above it, and other irrelevant stuff like that.



Yeah, every denomination of the Fanboy religion has its own holy mythology. There is no such thing as a mass-production car "engineered without regard to cost" -- that is a lot of claptrap. The W140 headlights were better than the W126 (etc) headlights, but the W140 headlights were not the world's finest, and they sure were not "cost-no-object" items.

Its even made its way into the S-Class' Wikipedia article...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_S-Class#Engineering

Granted, the article does clarify the "engineered without regard to cost" bit--it notes that frequent engineering sanctioned "overbudgeting" was curtailed by Mercedes. Sanctioned overbudgeting and "engineered without regard to cost" are on the same spectrum, but one's much more extreme than the other.


No, but it's not going to have anything like a cutoff, and its hot spot will have to be lower than optimal to comply with the glare limits near the horizon. Ford did it with their Lincoln Mark VIII, in both the pre and post facelift headlamps. That was a big fiasco with non-standard bulbs and electronics, very unreliable, and Ford wound up putting out a retrofit kit with new lamps and wiring adaptors to go back to halogen.

Definitely sounds like a case of not being "engineered without regard to cost."

I think that's right. If I were choosing, I would try to get a later car with the D2S projectors. But I probably wouldn't let that be the controlling factor in my car purchase decision.

I did a bit more research, and it appears that the LS430s were never offered with a halogen low-beam option. Halogen high-beams (9005), yes. My bad!
 

-Virgil-

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Maybe some BMW's headlights were good in the early 90's, but the ones in my '93 316 weren't. As a matter of fact they were the worst headlights I have ever had the misfortune to try to drive with. They were the Euro model projectors for low with a separate non projector for hi beam.

That's an example of the fact (unpopular among the various kinds of fanboys) that European-specification headlamps are not necessarily good. The projectors used in early '90s US BMWs were not great headlamps, but they were better than what Mercedes was using at the time.

The early 2000 models didn't fare any better. Auto Bild, the German car magazine, did a headlight comparison test with several models of cars. (The tests I believe were conducted by ADAC), and while the zenon equiped models weren't too bad, the halogen equiped models were, as far as I can remember their words, "great lights for out of town driving - as long as you are following someone else closely!"

Part of that problem is the European insistence on aiming headlamps much too low. Many countries that use the ECE headlight specifications consider 30 meters of sight distance to be adequate (it's nowhere near adequate unless top speed is 25 mph / 40 kph). The aim specs are set from a very glare-phobic philosophy that tries to eliminate every last bit of glare for "safety", when actually maximizing low beam safety would involve a different tradeoff between glare and seeing distance. I'm not necessarily saying the US tradeoff is the right one, but this aspect of the European sp

My cousin's Mercedes 200, also of mid 90's manufacture also has halogen lights (he still has it). They are quite good.

No, they're not -- they just feel that way, subjectively. They're primitive H4s.
 

-Virgil-

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Its even made its way into the S-Class' Wikipedia article...

...put there by someone who didn't bother providing any dependable support for the claim (which is theoretically required on Wikipedia), then proceeded to claim it's proved by an advertising slogan. In other words: fanboy religion.

Granted, the article does clarify the "engineered without regard to cost" bit--it notes that frequent engineering sanctioned "overbudgeting" was curtailed by Mercedes. Sanctioned overbudgeting and "engineered without regard to cost" are on the same spectrum, but one's much more extreme than the other.

This right here is a great illustration of the problem with Wikipedia. Anyone can put any made-up thing into an article, and it'll stay there unless someone else sees it and cares enough to fix it and provide appropriate support for assertions, AND police it on an ongoing basis to make sure some fanboy or troll or vandal doesn't come along and mess it up again.

(Another problem, unrelated, is that anyone can come along, read the article, and misinterpret it -- which, I'm sorry to say, it looks like you have done here. Nevertheless, the Mercedes-engineered-without-regard-to-cost discussion should probably end here, because it's off topic here)
 

Ls400

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Because the light source in an HID bulb has fuzzy edges gradually tapering down from bright to dark, unlike the sharp bright/dark edge zone of a filament. A low beam, especially a European-type low beam, needs a sharper light/dark boundary at the top of the beam than it's possible to get with reflector optics without a shadow mask on the bulb.

No, but it's not going to have anything like a cutoff, and its hot spot will have to be lower than optimal to comply with the glare limits near the horizon. Ford did it with their Lincoln Mark VIII, in both the pre and post facelift headlamps. That was a big fiasco with non-standard bulbs and electronics, very unreliable, and Ford wound up putting out a retrofit kit with new lamps and wiring adaptors to go back to halogen.

What about the Xenarc X1010? From the fuzzy pictures I've seen of it online, it appears to be a reflector based lamp. It's been noted that it accepts a D1S bulb. Does the Xenarc X1010 suffer from the same issue as the Mark VIII and its lower than optimal hot spot? If so, why is the X1010 recommended as an auxiliary low beam?
 

-Virgil-

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What about the Xenarc X1010?

What about it?

it appears to be a reflector based lamp. It's been noted that it accepts a D1S bulb.

It is, and it does.

Does the Xenarc X1010 suffer from the same issue as the Mark VIII and its lower than optimal hot spot?

The X1010 is an auxiliary low beam designed to conform to SAE J582. The Mark VIII's headlamp is a primary low beam designed to conform to FMVSS 108. Two different technical standards for two different kinds of lamp.

why is the X1010 recommended as an auxiliary low beam?

Because it works as such. It's not the world's most efficient, maybe not the world's best aux low beam, but it does work as such.

(Please don't quote entire whole messages just to add three lines of text. Everyone here can read the whole thread.)
 
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