iraq?

raggie33

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i cant understand why the iraqi people hate us.or atleast thats is how it is potyared on the media.it sadens me when i watch the news and see them protest us being there.why do they do that??how could they think it was better under saddam ?this keeps me up atnight can some one enlighten me?
 

LukeK

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My guess is that they don't necessarily think it was better under Saddam but that they are still harboring some bitterness for the US screwing the Shi-ites over back during Gulf War I. The US apparently encouraged them to revolt against Saddam, and supplied a few stocks of weapons. The Shiites attempted a revolt, but we didn't aid then as we (apparently from what I've read) said we would and they got squashed.
 

Greta

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raggie... you're watching the wrong TV channels... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif The Iraqi people, as a whole, do not hate us and they are supporting our efforts to rebuild their schools and homes and businesses to the best of their abilities. What you are seeing on the channels that you are watching are leftovers from the old regime. Obviously, their lives are seriously screwed up now because they can't continue with their corrupt and terroristic ways of running the country. Yes, they hate us... because we put a stop to the way they "did business".
 

BB

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Raggie,

A couple of quick answers as to what the people on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq think...

1. Large refugees camps were setup to hold the millions of Afghani's and Iraqis that had fled the Taliban and Saddam's regimes.

2. In Jordan (and others?) the UN set up huge camps for Iraq refugees that were expected once the US/Iraq (i.e., Gulf War II) started. Virtually, nobody showed up before, during or after GWII.

3. The refugees that left Afghanistan (something like 5-6 Million?) during the Taliban, were returning to Afghanistan at the rates of millions of people a month after the Taliban were overthrown.

4. The Iraq refugees that fled to Iran during Saddam's time have pretty much all returned to Iraq and the UN is closing down the camps ASHRAFI, Iran, Feb. 9 (UNHCR) - Nadia al-Kharani looked on in wonder at the remains of the camp that for over eight years had been her home. "It's all happened so fast," she said, "just a few weeks, and everyone has gone.

So--the folks that actually live in the area don't think that the new order is too bad.

Remember that the head of CNN News Eason Jordan:

[ QUOTE ]
The News We Kept to Ourselves
By EASON JORDAN, chief news executive at CNN.
4/10/03


ATLANTA — Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep CNN's Baghdad bureau open and to arrange interviews with Iraqi leaders. Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard — awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are now literally 10 some-odd million people that have voted with their feet--people born and raised in these very countries--that have again placed their life on the line that life is now better for 50 million people in these places, that are for the time being, under US rule and protection.

I think these are powerful statements as to how well the US (and the UK, and others) are doing overall...

-Bill
 

BB

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And here is an article written by a solder on the ground in Baghdad:

Houston Chronicle:

[ QUOTE ]
A soldier assures us: Our progress is amazing
By JOE ROCHE April 5, 2004, 9:55PM


I'm a soldier with the U.S. Army serving in the 16th Combat Engineer Battalion in Baghdad.

The news you are hearing stateside is awfully depressing and negative. The reality is we are accomplishing a tremendous amount here, and the Iraqi people are not only benefiting greatly, but are enthusiastically supportive.

My job is mostly to be the driver of my platoon's lead Humvee. I see the missions our Army is performing, and I interact closely with the Iraqi people. Because of this, I know how successful and important our work is.

My battalion carries out dozens of missions all over the city — missions that are improving people's lives. We have restored schools and universities, hospitals, power plants and water systems. We have engineered new infrastructure projects and much more. We have also brought security and order to many of Baghdad's worst areas — areas once afflicted with chaos and brutality.

Our efforts to train vast numbers of Iraqis to police and secure the city's basic law and order are bearing fruit.

Our mission is vital. We are transforming a once very sick society into a hopeful place. Dozens of newspapers and the concepts of freedom of religious worship and expression are flowering. So, too, are educational improvements.

This is the work of the U.S. military. Our progress is amazing. Many people who knew only repression and terror now have hope in their heart and prosperity in their grasp. Every day the Iraqi people stream into the streets to cheer and wave at us as we drive by. When I'm on a foot patrol, walking among a crowd, countless people thank us — repeatedly.

...

[/ QUOTE ]

-Bill
 

ikendu

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It is a big country with many diverse groups.

People that used to hold power (Suni Muslims) for decades and who have it no more...will certainly resist. Even the Shiites that were a repressed minority have an "agenda" to get and maintain more power. Some of that "agenda" will mean resisting U.S. efforts. The Shiites will attempt to create conditions that work towards their own ends. This young cleric with his "private army" is only one such example.

It was and will be a complex situation.
Attempts to simplify the complexity will only result in frustration for the U.S.

The general mood that I have heard reported is that most are happy to see Saddam gone, they want the U.S. out as soon as possible...but not just yet. Stability has not yet been achieved and taking forces out now could result in chaos or civil war.

To get this resolved in the best fashion and to create long lasting stability, will take some very smart political work so that minority rights are sufficiently protected while making the majority (the previously repressed Shiites) feel that they have the control they are due (over due in fact).

I have no doubt of the ability or the dedication of our military...I do wonder if our State Department is smart enough or even being given the opportunity within our own gov't to work on the "smart political" moves that this will take for success.

Many Iraqis are suspicious of U.S. motives (we do consume more of the world's oil per capita than any other nation after all). Al Queada has been putting out the message for years that the U.S. would attack and occupy an oil rich Islamic nation...then we did. Whether they have a right to be suspicious or not doesn't change the fact that they are mis-trustful.

Not simple. Not simple at all.
 

BB

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[ QUOTE ]
ikendu said:

I have no doubt of the ability or the dedication of our military...I do wonder if our State Department is smart enough or even being given the opportunity within our own gov't to work on the "smart political" moves that this will take for success.

...

Not simple. Not simple at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

The State Department and its professional diplomats/bureaucrats are very much like tenured professors. They are entrenched in power (from administration to administration) and have created a club that has allowed them to all get along (and get bribes/cash--see UN and the "lost" Billions of Dollars from Iraq's Oil for Palaces--err Food program).

Diplomats (US and World) don't like the American (and Bush's) Cowboy Diplomacy (officially the "Bush Doctrine"?) of "say what you mean" and "do what you say". This policy has now out'ed North Korea, Iran, Libya, and Pakistani's nuclear proliferation and WMD's development programs. They are very afraid of Bush doing what Bush said he would do.

[ QUOTE ]
A spokesman for Mr .Berlusconi said the prime minister had been telephoned recently by Col Gaddafi of Libya, who said: "I will do whatever the Americans want, because I saw what happened in Iraq, and I was afraid."

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems that "nuances" are not very helpful when dealing with real life. Making things more complicated is just another way for people to hide from responsibility and blame.

-Bill
 

ikendu

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Bill...good to know that it is simple after all!

I just erased the rest of my reply...wouldn't have changed your mind and why stir up trouble on the forum.
 

PlayboyJoeShmoe

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Rest assured Raggie!

It's just the bad 20% or so getting all the press. You'll never get any good news from ABC, NBC, CBS, CNBC, MSNBC etc.

I tend to watch Fox News, but mostly listen to talk radio.
 

Sub_Umbra

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[ QUOTE ]
ikendu:
...I do wonder if our State Department is smart enough or even being given the opportunity within our own gov't to work on the "smart political" moves that this will take for success.

[/ QUOTE ]

The State Department is a tool of forign policy that serves at the discretion of the exectutive. While it is true that if they are totally stupid or inept it can harm forign policy, their job is merely to follow the executives game plan -- or go home. The reality is that the State Department is normally the last to know anything. Their job is to stroke forign governments to get them to comply with the needs of the executive for what ever part of the plan he is implementing at the moment. They're job is to say whatever they're told to say without ever knowing the truth. They are not necesarily informed of the whole plan. I beleive that history shows that this happens over and over, in administration after administration. It's not a bad thing.

If you ever see a Secretary of State that really seems to know what he's doing ALL the time and NEVER contradicts himself, beware -- it's a sure sign that he may be actually running forign policy, and the executive is incompetent, disinterested, distracted -- or all of the above.

EDIT: spellin an such
 

Unicorn

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The majority of Iraqi's don't hate America. The ones that are doing the most fighting are the ones that had power, and now wish they still did, including some Hussein loyalists, also the ones who didn't have power, but now want a lot. The Shia' cleric with the warrant for his arrest is a good example of the second. Add in the hardcore fanatics (MANY) from other countries who hate America for whatever reasons (we are a good scapegoat, and we support Israel), and you have some great fodder for our bloodthirsty media. I want to see reports of the schools, playgrounds, hopsitals, orphanages, etc that are being built or rebuilt by the US and our allies.
 

jayflash

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National Public TV and radio offer a more in depth examination of news items. They cover angles not examined by the majors. NPTV broadcasts BBC nightly news which gives a foreign perspective. All the major networks regurgitate the same fare. It's good to get the news from various sources though.
 
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