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Thread: Spain pulls out of Iraq

  1. #1

    Default Spain pulls out of Iraq

    The recent election in Spain removed the gov't that supported President Bush in Iraq. The new gov't has been sworn in now and they have announced the immediate removal of Spain's troops.

    CNN: Spain plans quick pullout of Iraq

    Part of our difficulty in Iraq (IMHO), is that it is seen (by the locals) as a U.S. occupation instead of an international effort to provide stability while they sort out their own self-gov't (the U.S. hand picked the Iraqi governing council after all). Spain's departure won't help that public perception.

    I think if we could get UN troops in there, especially troops that aren't white, english speaking and Christian...something like Egyptian troops (like we had in the first Gulf war), it would be going much better. There would still be trouble makers, but they would have much less broad support from the general population.

    I've tried to find a list of the countries with troops on the ground in Iraq...this is the best I could come up with.

    Coalition troops as of November, 2003

    If someone else has a better link... I'd appreciate it.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    This would be newer. From the BBC website.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    Oh great...Now just wait for the people that came up with "freedom fries" to make something up...I don't know, may be Spanish missions are now known as Freedom missions.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif[/img]

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    Flashaholic* pedalinbob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ir...030327-10.html

    Forty-nine countries are publicly committed to the Coalition, including:

    Afghanistan
    Albania
    Angola
    Australia
    Azerbaijan
    Bulgaria
    Colombia
    Costa Rica
    Czech Republic
    Denmark
    Dominican Republic
    El Salvador
    Eritrea
    Estonia
    Ethiopia
    Georgia
    Honduras
    Hungary
    Iceland
    Italy
    Japan
    Kuwait
    Latvia
    Lithuania
    Macedonia
    Marshall Islands
    Micronesia
    Mongolia
    Netherlands
    Nicaragua
    Palau
    Panama
    Philippines
    Poland
    Portugal
    Romania
    Rwanda
    Singapore
    Slovakia
    Solomon Islands
    South Korea
    Spain (delete)
    Tonga
    Turkey
    Uganda
    Ukraine
    United Kingdom
    United States
    Uzbekistan

    of course, since they are mostly small countries, they dont count...therefore, our action was "unilateral".
    gotta love that logic.

    Bob

  5. #5
    *Flashaholic* James S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    I think that we'll also find that the short list of those opposed are also on the short list of those getting illegal contracts for Oil in Saddams "Oil For Food" program. The corruption of which is only now starting to hit the news. Keep watching, it's getting very interesting.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    [ QUOTE ]
    6pOriginal said:
    Oh great...Now just wait for the people that came up with "freedom fries" to make something up...

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Ummm... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif[/img] Freedom Omlettes ? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img]

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    Blue Freedom Eyes?

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    On the positive side, Osama and the terrorists wholly support Spain's decision.

    From my third grade daughter's history book:

    [ QUOTE ]
    ...the Visigoths [who had by this time became Christians] quarreled over who would be the next king.... They put Rodrigo on the throne and forced everyone to accept him.

    The sons of the dead king were furious. They wanted to rule. So they sent messengers down to North Africa and asked the great fighter Tariq Bin Ziyad to bring his armies up and help them drive Rodrigo out.

    That was a big mistake!

    You see, Tariq was a Muslim commander. And his armies were the armies of the Islamic Empire...

    ...So when Tariq got a message inviting him into Spain, he was happy to oblige. But he didn't go over to Spain to help the king's sons get their throne back. He went to capture Spain for Islam.

    ...seven thousand men..."Burn the ships!"..."we haven't come here to return," [Tariq] said. "We will either conquer or- perish!"...

    ...Soon Rodrigo and the kin's sons and the rest of the Visigoths were all under Islamic rule. And Spain remained a Muslim country for many years. Spanish followers of Islam became known as Moors.

    ...The rock where Tariq stood to watch his ships come in became known as Jabal Tariq, the "mountain of Tariq." over the many years, Jabal Tariq became pronounced Gibraltar. Today, that hill is still known as the rock of Gibraltar.

    Chapter Twelve: The Islamic Invasion--Story of the World. Volume 2: The Middle Ages. by Susan Wise Bauer


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Osama Bin Laden does have a long memory. One proposed theory is that OBL believes that any land that was once under Islam, shall always be under Islam. From Slate:

    [ QUOTE ]
    What's it have to do with Spain? Virginia Postrel proposes a "Bin Laden Doctrine": "that no Muslim territory should ever become non-Muslim." Bin Laden opened his videotaped statement with this sentence: "Let the whole world know that we shall never accept that the tragedy of Andalusia would be repeated in Palestine. We cannot accept that Palestine will become Jewish." The "tragedy of Andalusia" refers to the conquering in 1492 of the Muslim Kingdom of Granada by the Catholic monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella. It was a central moment in the Islamic empire's quest for political and military power: Muslim expansion was not just checked; it was reversed. If Bin Laden truly wants to restore the original geographic dimensions of the caliphate, he may eventually look toward Spain. Of course, it's possible that Bin Laden's goals are more modest (modest being a relative word).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Spain is clearly in the cross hairs of Bin Laden... I truly hope that nothing bad happens again to Spain and her people. But history and Osama Bin Laden are not on their side.

    -Bill

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    And along the lines of letting the "camel's nose into the tent":

    Cathedral may see return of Muslims

    [ QUOTE ]
    Muslims across Spain are lobbying the Roman Catholic church in the southern city of Córdoba to make a symbolic gesture of reconciliation between faiths by allowing them to pray in the city's cathedral.

    Córdoba's renaissance cathedral sits in the centre of an ancient mosque complex, and local Muslims want to be allowed to pray there again. They have appealed to the Vatican to intercede on their behalf.

    Zakarias Maza, the director of the Taqwa mosque in neighbouring Granada, said yesterday: "We hope the Vatican will give a signal that it has a vision of openness and dialogue.

    "It would be good if there were a gesture of tolerance on their part...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sounds good--I would also like to allow non-Moslems freely into Mosques, Mecca, etc... Shall we see?

    -Bill

  10. #10

    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    that is sad guess .they kinda let the terorist win

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    And virtually guaranteed a terrorist attack here before our election to "encourage" the public to vote Bush out of office.

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    Flashaholic* Sub_Umbra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    What a cohesive thread.

    I love you man...er, men...folks!

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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    So i assume its Spain's fault for "letting the terrorists win" eh? Thats about as ridiculous as freedom fries. What difference would about 1300 troops make anyway? And what about their equipment? Spain is one of the poorest countries in Europe. Its doubtful they're even equiped to fight effectively in Iraq. But then again, maybe Micronesia could make up for it and send 20 more troops and some golf-carts outfitted with aluminum siding (ie. their best tanks). Spaniards, like Italians, are life loving people who really don't like to be soldiers. They'd rather be at a cafe or riding a vespa and enjoying delicious food and wine. Okay, thats a generalization, but they do still take breaks at noon to go home, eat and take a nap. Point is, they're not the best country to ask to send troops anyway.

  14. #14
    *Flashaholic* James S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    [ QUOTE ]
    Spaniards, like Italians, are life loving people who really don't like to be soldiers.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The more you love life, and your way of life the more you have to be willing to defend it, or someone will come along and take it away.

    "please don't hate us, we're all happy life loving people here" does not cut it as a negotiating tactic.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    Well, look, let's be blunt: we'd pull out of Iraq too if we could.

    We went in because there was strong belief in an immanent threat to the USA from weapons of mass distruction in Iraq. Those weapons were either never there, there only in reports underlings filed with the Iraqi regime to cover their asses, or were smuggled out. Either way, there was no threat, and the reason we invaded has turned to smoke and mirrors.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't have invaded, or that we should. But we're there now, the original reason for the war is accomplished, in as much as we are in no danger from Iraqi WMD. Now we just have to get the hell out of there as quickly as possible with as little loss of life.

    Now, I'd gladly slap the Spanish Govt. on the side of the head for encouraging terrorism, and the lesson learned that carefully timed civilian massacres are going to tilt elections is going to cost us all dearly I shouldn't wonder, but that doesn't make what the Spanish did wrong, only poorly timed. No WMD threat == go home.

    We should get out of Iraq. There is no military threat, and now we're really just hanging around getting shot at waiting for somebody to ensure that the next regime is pro-American. That probably isn't going to happen, so we should cut out losses. I don't think there's any reasonable hope of winning over hearts and minds at this rate, and there's nothing there worth another American life.

  16. #16
    Flashaholic chiaroscuro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    Actually,tygger,Spain has one of the faster growing economies in Europe and it's standard of living is greater than Portugal,Ireland and Greece.Not far behind France and Britain.It's army is well equipped by NATO standards and is very professional.
    Yes, they are a life loving people, and they have much to teach we Americans on the subject. But,fierce,very fierce in a fight. Ask any veteran of the spanish civil war.
    There would have been no talk of withdrawing Spanish troops if the previous
    conservative government hadn't bungled it's PR after the Madrid bombings--
    the election was their's to lose up to that point.The Spanish electorate gave them a good a** whoopin for their arrogance.
    It may be unfortunate for American policy--but domestic concerns will usually trump international concerns,in any country.
    I have no doubt that the Spanish will defend their way of life as vigorously as
    we imagine we do,if they face further attacks. They have done a rather good job against the ETA.

  17. #17
    Flashaholic* Silviron's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    Well, at least Japan didn't succumb to the Baathist/ Al Qaeda blackmail directed at them, and the murder of the Italian hostage backfired, and even moved a lot of Italian leftists to support Italy's contribution to the Coalition.

    And I hear that Poland has promised to send in more troops to make up for the Saanish that have "cut and run".

    What distresses me is that the terrorists success in Spain is going to make them try the same sort of tactics (including in the USA and Britain) to influence elections and other international policies.

    We can (and have) argued the pros & cons, the whys & wherefores of the Iraq war past the point of doing any good, but Spains acquiescence to terrorist threats is not going to do anyone in the world, including the Iraqui people one little bit of good.

    Unfortunately, the disease has spread to Honduras too, which has just announced that their 370 coalition troops are also "cutting & running".

    The loss of the Spanish and Honduran troops is really insignificant from a practical point, but the psychological effect is going to be much more significant.

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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    Hi all,
    Im just happy that they came. If their government changed, it's not the troopers fault. Time will tell if the decision was a valid one or not.

    Im not happy with the French or German governments. I can't beleive the French population will tollerate long the lack of honor in it's leaders. As for the Germans I don't have enough information to form an opinion.

    The Spanish are cool. They have these neat 6x6 armored cars and have a definate 'no fooling' look to them.

    The day after Madrid I saw two of their cars in the yard. I was on the way to the PX. While there I picked up a couple of bottles of Iced Tea and paid a visit.

    I gave the iced tea to the commanders as a gift, and told them that I was near the Pentagon when the plane went in. Wished them well. They were touched that an AMCIT and contractor was nice at them.

    Keep in mind that a lot of troops here are 'double isolated'. Language and then culture. A kind word, a thumbs up go a long way to make these guys welcome. This week I got a photo with some Polish troopers. Nice enough guys.

    That's the news
    Jack Crow in Iraq

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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    Okay, lets put some perspective on the table here. What if, lets say, India went into Iraq to remove Saddam from power? Do you think Spain would even have offered to send troops to begin with? Don't you realize that the only reason they helped at all is to gain favor with one of their most important allies? They got brownie points for offering a measley 1300 troops and voicing their support, all in the name of creating better trading agreements, more financial support, etc. It has nothing to do with values, pride, morality, or anything else. If you think otherwise you're sadly mistaken. This global corporate world is about Money, and little else. And a country like Spain, yes, it is still a poor country compared to many of its European neighbors, needs good relations with the US. It is sad, however when dealing with countries support of one another it rarely has anything to do with "doing the right thing" and much more to do with global politics (ie. trading, resources, etc.) And what would you do if the majority of your voters were against having troops in Iraq? Spain is a democracy right? Well, then as an elected official your job is to listen to the people. And from the beginning I'm pretty sure most people in Spain were against getting involved in any way with Iraq. If you look at it that way their withdrawl is long overdue.

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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    Um... If I remember correctly, the majority of the voters in Spain did NOT vote for this guy who is in power now... he's just the one who got the most votes. There IS a difference. Kinda like when Clinton was elected... know what I mean? (If I've remembered incorrectly, I'm sure someone will correct me.)

    And since when has war not been about politics or religion? And since when does that make it wrong? In this instance, the needs of the many definately outweigh the needs of the few! And if you think that the majority of the Iraqi people did not need this, then you're sadly mistaken. In fact, the world needed this change in Iraq. To have simply ignored what was going on there and to have let it continue would have been for pure political reasons. Damned if ya do, and damned if ya don't. Better to err on the side of those who need it the most... the Iraqi people and the rest of the world.

    Spain may live to regret pulling out... on the other hand, they have given more than France or Germany, so I have no problems with them. At least they gave something.

  21. #21
    *Flashaholic* James S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    [ QUOTE ]
    all in the name of creating better trading agreements, more financial support, etc

    [/ QUOTE ]

    And my question would be so what? This is the JOB of a government. Economic freedom is the precursor and a necessary component of every other freedom. Should we trade with and treat all others alike regardless of how they treat us?

    Obviously there are some issues with the "global economy" that we need to address. But these are problems that CAN be addressed, and are not a valid inditement of the entire capitalist system. There is no other way to do it. Without economic freedom all the others will be dissolved shortly thereafter.

  22. #22
    Flashaholic* pedalinbob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    [ QUOTE ]
    tygger said:
    Okay, lets put some perspective on the table here. What if, lets say, India went into Iraq to remove Saddam from power? Do you think Spain would even have offered to send troops to begin with? Don't you realize that the only reason they helped at all is to gain favor with one of their most important allies? They got brownie points for offering a measley 1300 troops and voicing their support, all in the name of creating better trading agreements, more financial support, etc. It has nothing to do with values, pride, morality, or anything else. If you think otherwise you're sadly mistaken. This global corporate world is about Money, and little else. And a country like Spain, yes, it is still a poor country compared to many of its European neighbors, needs good relations with the US. It is sad, however when dealing with countries support of one another it rarely has anything to do with "doing the right thing" and much more to do with global politics (ie. trading, resources, etc.) And what would you do if the majority of your voters were against having troops in Iraq? Spain is a democracy right? Well, then as an elected official your job is to listen to the people. And from the beginning I'm pretty sure most people in Spain were against getting involved in any way with Iraq. If you look at it that way their withdrawl is long overdue.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    so, you are saying, in a round-about way, that the Spaniards were simply greedy, instead of just trying to "do the right thing"?

    i get it.

    anyone helping the US cant possibly be doing so based upon "doing the right thing".

    hmm. i guess all those other countries are simply trying to get brownie points as well.

    nice outlook you have there, Tygger.

    interesting, that the inference appears to be:
    if you help the US/believe in the war, it is about greed.
    if you oppose the war, you are conscientious and moral.

    Bob

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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    Easy Bob... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

  24. #24

    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    realy i aint sure if they gave more then the french. they sure gave more effort but in the end im afraid they gave less.(please dont hang me cause my opion). see i cant exaplin but cowards or tersist use metheds to get what they want and and the last hing ya want to do is let them metheds dictate waht ya do

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* pedalinbob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    [ QUOTE ]
    Sasha said:
    Easy Bob... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    ummmm, how 'bout that new Longow??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

    Bob [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

  26. #26
    Flashaholic* metalhed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    I applaud the Spanish government for refusing to be manipulated by the Bush administration any longer. They (the Spanish) have repeatedly called for the UN to assume authority over the occupation of Iraq, and would not be withdrawing their troops if this had occurred.

    I also agree with Tygger, in that this war is economic and corporate. It has nothing to do with democracy or building a better country for Iraqis. It is a blatant power and oil grab by a corrupt administration.

    However,my overall position on all of this is quite clear. The only time war is justified is in defense. Wars of aggression are always wrong and can never be justified. Period. We were not attacked or directly threatened by Iraq and Saddam Hussein. We possessed no moral right to invade, especially in view of the rest of the world's position on the matter. And today we hold no moral right to continue to occupy Iraq. The only moral solution to the current dilemma is to truly internationalize the process by turning over the occupation of Iraq to the UN. But that would jeopardize this administration's grip on the spoils of war, which was the original target anyway.
    BTW, isn't it interesting that we require the self-defense aspect when it comes to using force to defend one's person. My understanding is that a private citizen can only legally apply force to another person once the other person has attacked or demonstrated clearly threatening behavior. In fact, I believe that the courts have even held that one has an obligation to use non-violent means to end a confrontation if those options are available. In other words, just because Johnny threatens (or is perceived as a threat by) Timmy, Timmy cannot simply blow Johnny away. Timmy has a legal obligation to employ to physical force as a last resort only, and to employ only such force as is needed to protect himself.

    Kinda pathetic that the great and powerful United States can't respect its own domestic standards and morals when it comes to the use of force on an international scale. Shame on all of us for allowing the US to become an aggressor nation.

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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    A question, each, for pedalin and Sasha. Bob, have you any info about the types of support we're receiving from the 49 other members of the coalition? I'm wondering what the total monetary equivilant contribution comes to.

    Sasha, I'm curious why you mentioned Clinton when our current president got about 500,000 less votes than the front runner - good old what's his name...Gosh, Gadd, Gouge, Grrr?

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    Time to remove Spain's flag from main page.
    It doesn't deserve to be on same page as stars & stripes

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* metalhed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    I don't get it.
    Their lives don't matter because they disagree with you?

    I thought the US was built on the notion that we are all the same...equal...deserving of life and liberty. We wouldn't have a nation at all if we just wrote off everyone who disagrees with us. Just because someone holds a different opinion than you is no justification to marginalize, disrespect, or ignore them.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Spain pulls out of Iraq

    [ QUOTE ]
    jayflash said:
    A question, each, for pedalin and Sasha. Bob, have you any info about the types of support we're receiving from the 49 other members of the coalition? I'm wondering what the total monetary equivilant contribution comes to.

    Does it matter? what is your point?

    Sasha, I'm curious why you mentioned Clinton when our current president got about 500,000 less votes than the front runner - good old what's his name...Gosh, Gadd, Gouge, Grrr?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    darn that electoral college!!!
    how dare they devise a system that gives the "little guy" (you know, those less densely populated states) a proper voice in elections? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    Bob

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