Spain pulls out of Iraq

The recent election in Spain removed the gov't that supported President Bush in Iraq. The new gov't has been sworn in now and they have announced the immediate removal of Spain's troops.

CNN: Spain plans quick pullout of Iraq

Part of our difficulty in Iraq (IMHO), is that it is seen (by the locals) as a U.S. occupation instead of an international effort to provide stability while they sort out their own self-gov't (the U.S. hand picked the Iraqi governing council after all). Spain's departure won't help that public perception.

I think if we could get UN troops in there, especially troops that aren't white, english speaking and Christian...something like Egyptian troops (like we had in the first Gulf war), it would be going much better. There would still be trouble makers, but they would have much less broad support from the general population.

I've tried to find a list of the countries with troops on the ground in Iraq...this is the best I could come up with.

Coalition troops as of November, 2003

If someone else has a better link... I'd appreciate it.

This would be newer. From the BBC website.

Oh great...Now just wait for the people that came up with "freedom fries" to make something up...I don't know, may be Spanish missions are now known as Freedom missions.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/news/20030327-10.html

Forty-nine countries are publicly committed to the Coalition, including:

Afghanistan
Albania
Angola
Australia
Azerbaijan
Bulgaria
Colombia
Costa Rica
Czech Republic
Denmark
Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Georgia
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Japan
Kuwait
Latvia
Lithuania
Macedonia
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Mongolia
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Palau
Panama
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Rwanda
Singapore
Slovakia
Solomon Islands
South Korea
Spain (delete)
Tonga
Turkey
Uganda
Ukraine
United Kingdom
United States
Uzbekistan

of course, since they are mostly small countries, they dont count...therefore, our action was "unilateral".
gotta love that logic.

Bob

I think that we'll also find that the short list of those opposed are also on the short list of those getting illegal contracts for Oil in Saddams "Oil For Food" program. The corruption of which is only now starting to hit the news. Keep watching, it's getting very interesting.

[ QUOTE ]
6pOriginal said:
Oh great...Now just wait for the people that came up with "freedom fries" to make something up...

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Ummm... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif Freedom Omlettes ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Blue Freedom Eyes?

On the positive side, Osama and the terrorists wholly support Spain's decision.

From my third grade daughter's history book:

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...the Visigoths [who had by this time became Christians] quarreled over who would be the next king.... They put Rodrigo on the throne and forced everyone to accept him.

The sons of the dead king were furious. They wanted to rule. So they sent messengers down to North Africa and asked the great fighter Tariq Bin Ziyad to bring his armies up and help them drive Rodrigo out.

That was a big mistake!

You see, Tariq was a Muslim commander. And his armies were the armies of the Islamic Empire...

...So when Tariq got a message inviting him into Spain, he was happy to oblige. But he didn't go over to Spain to help the king's sons get their throne back. He went to capture Spain for Islam.

...seven thousand men..."Burn the ships!"..."we haven't come here to return," [Tariq] said. "We will either conquer or- perish!"...

...Soon Rodrigo and the kin's sons and the rest of the Visigoths were all under Islamic rule. And Spain remained a Muslim country for many years. Spanish followers of Islam became known as Moors.

...The rock where Tariq stood to watch his ships come in became known as Jabal Tariq, the "mountain of Tariq." over the many years, Jabal Tariq became pronounced Gibraltar. Today, that hill is still known as the rock of Gibraltar.

Chapter Twelve: The Islamic Invasion--Story of the World. Volume 2: The Middle Ages. by Susan Wise Bauer


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Osama Bin Laden does have a long memory. One proposed theory is that OBL believes that any land that was once under Islam, shall always be under Islam. From Slate:

[ QUOTE ]
What's it have to do with Spain? Virginia Postrel proposes a "Bin Laden Doctrine": "that no Muslim territory should ever become non-Muslim." Bin Laden opened his videotaped statement with this sentence: "Let the whole world know that we shall never accept that the tragedy of Andalusia would be repeated in Palestine. We cannot accept that Palestine will become Jewish." The "tragedy of Andalusia" refers to the conquering in 1492 of the Muslim Kingdom of Granada by the Catholic monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella. It was a central moment in the Islamic empire's quest for political and military power: Muslim expansion was not just checked; it was reversed. If Bin Laden truly wants to restore the original geographic dimensions of the caliphate, he may eventually look toward Spain. Of course, it's possible that Bin Laden's goals are more modest (modest being a relative word).

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Spain is clearly in the cross hairs of Bin Laden... I truly hope that nothing bad happens again to Spain and her people. But history and Osama Bin Laden are not on their side.

-Bill

And along the lines of letting the "camel's nose into the tent":

Cathedral may see return of Muslims

[ QUOTE ]
Muslims across Spain are lobbying the Roman Catholic church in the southern city of Córdoba to make a symbolic gesture of reconciliation between faiths by allowing them to pray in the city's cathedral.

Córdoba's renaissance cathedral sits in the centre of an ancient mosque complex, and local Muslims want to be allowed to pray there again. They have appealed to the Vatican to intercede on their behalf.

Zakarias Maza, the director of the Taqwa mosque in neighbouring Granada, said yesterday: "We hope the Vatican will give a signal that it has a vision of openness and dialogue.

"It would be good if there were a gesture of tolerance on their part...

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Sounds good--I would also like to allow non-Moslems freely into Mosques, Mecca, etc... Shall we see?

-Bill

that is sad guess .they kinda let the terorist win

And virtually guaranteed a terrorist attack here before our election to "encourage" the public to vote Bush out of office.

What a cohesive thread.

I love you man...er, men...folks!

So i assume its Spain's fault for "letting the terrorists win" eh? Thats about as ridiculous as freedom fries. What difference would about 1300 troops make anyway? And what about their equipment? Spain is one of the poorest countries in Europe. Its doubtful they're even equiped to fight effectively in Iraq. But then again, maybe Micronesia could make up for it and send 20 more troops and some golf-carts outfitted with aluminum siding (ie. their best tanks). Spaniards, like Italians, are life loving people who really don't like to be soldiers. They'd rather be at a cafe or riding a vespa and enjoying delicious food and wine. Okay, thats a generalization, but they do still take breaks at noon to go home, eat and take a nap. Point is, they're not the best country to ask to send troops anyway.

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Spaniards, like Italians, are life loving people who really don't like to be soldiers.

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The more you love life, and your way of life the more you have to be willing to defend it, or someone will come along and take it away.

"please don't hate us, we're all happy life loving people here" does not cut it as a negotiating tactic.

Well, look, let's be blunt: we'd pull out of Iraq too if we could.

We went in because there was strong belief in an immanent threat to the USA from weapons of mass distruction in Iraq. Those weapons were either never there, there only in reports underlings filed with the Iraqi regime to cover their asses, or were smuggled out. Either way, there was no threat, and the reason we invaded has turned to smoke and mirrors.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have invaded, or that we should. But we're there now, the original reason for the war is accomplished, in as much as we are in no danger from Iraqi WMD. Now we just have to get the hell out of there as quickly as possible with as little loss of life.

Now, I'd gladly slap the Spanish Govt. on the side of the head for encouraging terrorism, and the lesson learned that carefully timed civilian massacres are going to tilt elections is going to cost us all dearly I shouldn't wonder, but that doesn't make what the Spanish did wrong, only poorly timed. No WMD threat == go home.

We should get out of Iraq. There is no military threat, and now we're really just hanging around getting shot at waiting for somebody to ensure that the next regime is pro-American. That probably isn't going to happen, so we should cut out losses. I don't think there's any reasonable hope of winning over hearts and minds at this rate, and there's nothing there worth another American life.

Actually,tygger,Spain has one of the faster growing economies in Europe and it's standard of living is greater than Portugal,Ireland and Greece.Not far behind France and Britain.It's army is well equipped by NATO standards and is very professional.
Yes, they are a life loving people, and they have much to teach we Americans on the subject. But,fierce,very fierce in a fight. Ask any veteran of the spanish civil war.
There would have been no talk of withdrawing Spanish troops if the previous
conservative government hadn't bungled it's PR after the Madrid bombings--
the election was their's to lose up to that point.The Spanish electorate gave them a good a** whoopin for their arrogance.
It may be unfortunate for American policy--but domestic concerns will usually trump international concerns,in any country.
I have no doubt that the Spanish will defend their way of life as vigorously as
we imagine we do,if they face further attacks. They have done a rather good job against the ETA.

Well, at least Japan didn't succumb to the Baathist/ Al Qaeda blackmail directed at them, and the murder of the Italian hostage backfired, and even moved a lot of Italian leftists to support Italy's contribution to the Coalition.

And I hear that Poland has promised to send in more troops to make up for the Saanish that have "cut and run".

What distresses me is that the terrorists success in Spain is going to make them try the same sort of tactics (including in the USA and Britain) to influence elections and other international policies.

We can (and have) argued the pros & cons, the whys & wherefores of the Iraq war past the point of doing any good, but Spains acquiescence to terrorist threats is not going to do anyone in the world, including the Iraqui people one little bit of good.

Unfortunately, the disease has spread to Honduras too, which has just announced that their 370 coalition troops are also "cutting & running".

The loss of the Spanish and Honduran troops is really insignificant from a practical point, but the psychological effect is going to be much more significant.

Hi all,
Im just happy that they came. If their government changed, it's not the troopers fault. Time will tell if the decision was a valid one or not.

Im not happy with the French or German governments. I can't beleive the French population will tollerate long the lack of honor in it's leaders. As for the Germans I don't have enough information to form an opinion.

The Spanish are cool. They have these neat 6x6 armored cars and have a definate 'no fooling' look to them.

The day after Madrid I saw two of their cars in the yard. I was on the way to the PX. While there I picked up a couple of bottles of Iced Tea and paid a visit.

I gave the iced tea to the commanders as a gift, and told them that I was near the Pentagon when the plane went in. Wished them well. They were touched that an AMCIT and contractor was nice at them.

Keep in mind that a lot of troops here are 'double isolated'. Language and then culture. A kind word, a thumbs up go a long way to make these guys welcome. This week I got a photo with some Polish troopers. Nice enough guys.

That's the news
Jack Crow in Iraq

Okay, lets put some perspective on the table here. What if, lets say, India went into Iraq to remove Saddam from power? Do you think Spain would even have offered to send troops to begin with? Don't you realize that the only reason they helped at all is to gain favor with one of their most important allies? They got brownie points for offering a measley 1300 troops and voicing their support, all in the name of creating better trading agreements, more financial support, etc. It has nothing to do with values, pride, morality, or anything else. If you think otherwise you're sadly mistaken. This global corporate world is about Money, and little else. And a country like Spain, yes, it is still a poor country compared to many of its European neighbors, needs good relations with the US. It is sad, however when dealing with countries support of one another it rarely has anything to do with "doing the right thing" and much more to do with global politics (ie. trading, resources, etc.) And what would you do if the majority of your voters were against having troops in Iraq? Spain is a democracy right? Well, then as an elected official your job is to listen to the people. And from the beginning I'm pretty sure most people in Spain were against getting involved in any way with Iraq. If you look at it that way their withdrawl is long overdue.

Um... If I remember correctly, the majority of the voters in Spain did NOT vote for this guy who is in power now... he's just the one who got the most votes. There IS a difference. Kinda like when Clinton was elected... know what I mean? (If I've remembered incorrectly, I'm sure someone will correct me.)

And since when has war not been about politics or religion? And since when does that make it wrong? In this instance, the needs of the many definately outweigh the needs of the few! And if you think that the majority of the Iraqi people did not need this, then you're sadly mistaken. In fact, the world needed this change in Iraq. To have simply ignored what was going on there and to have let it continue would have been for pure political reasons. Damned if ya do, and damned if ya don't. Better to err on the side of those who need it the most... the Iraqi people and the rest of the world.

Spain may live to regret pulling out... on the other hand, they have given more than France or Germany, so I have no problems with them. At least they gave something.