Lighting Tools as Impact Weapons

I know we have discussed this some in a few threads, but I noticed in the "Tri Star Phazer Evaluation" thread in the "Elektrolumens" area that there was some mention about someone not wanting to ever get hit with one.

I realize that not everyone on this thread is an LEO/PO, and there are some CPF members who are Private Security Officers/Guards who are not allowed to carry sidearms and/or that live/work/travel through areas of less-than-desirable areas.

I also have been in situations, before we were issued defensive batons (either solid plastic or expandable steel) where an impact weapon was required, so I do understand the need, or preference, to have something that can both blind, and blind-side, a "client" when required.

However, with the advent of collapsible batons issued to, and/or allowed to be carried by, LEO/PO, it seems using a finely crafted and expensive lighting tool as an impact weapon is NOT the best, or wisest, use of the tools at hand. Especially if one has paid for such a lighting tool out of one's own pocket, as opposed to departmentally-issued.

Some of my co-workers still feel that they need the option of "throwing my flashlight throw the window" of the vehicle being operated by one or more violent and/or escaping "clients".

Sounds like Mags may still be useful to some for such activities, but there is NO WAY I would be risking ANY Elektrolumens or Pila lighting tool unless my life was at risk of absolute imminent grievous bodily harm or death.

However, I DO still have that Koehler Brite Star 3 D, don't I? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif It would certainly not cause much damage to the intended object-of-impact!

I agree with your post Pete! I'm one of those in-house security officers who are not authorized to carry an expandable baton while on duty. Performing a foot patrol at night withOUT any immediate impact weapon available makes for a somewhat nerve-wracking shift. =)

I do carry my Elektrolumens TSP while on night duty. Prior to that I carried a 4D Maglite which I was very satisfied with. Both lights provided me a comfort level that, if the need was there, I had offensive/defensive options in necessary.

In the dark you need a light source (ie. flashlight) and you need a non-lethal impact option (ie. baton). And if professionals such as those in the security industry (as well as private citizens who share similar concerns) who are not permitted to carry the likes of a baton, then the hefty Maglite and other similarly sized flashlights will always be in demand.

At least technology is allowing the quality of the beams to improve over and beyond what the traditional Mags have been able to provide us thus far. Can't wait for a 3 x 5W or 3 x 10W LED contraption to come out on the market!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

CQB

first of all im not a LEO or in the security industry

usualy a flashlight can be used as an impact weapon if the person holding the flashlight is in immediate danger. such as a "client" charging at him/her and cannot reach for a baton.

Often a flashlight is used as an impromtu impact device because of immediate need. A cop or security guard isn't going to drop his/her probably needed piece of lighting equipment to draw a baton. That would also take more time that may not be available. It would be better if more departments trained teir officers in the proper use of a flashlight as an impact device such as Rockville, MD does (or did?) than requiring small plastic Poly Stingers like the Fairfax County PD in Virginia. If all you have time for is to hit with whatever you havein hand, then that's what you'll do, whether it be with a big Mag, or a tiny SureFire. It would be better to train the person to use the light without causing any real harm to the attacker, unless needed of course.

Two of the best combinations I've seen are the Tigerlight with enough reach and mass to be an effective impact device, but also having a potent OC cannister. The ASP Triad mounted to an ASP baton is also not bad, but really only works on the shorter batons or the length will be unwieldy, and it only has two purposes lighting and hitting. That Tigerlight also adds spray to that. A great choice IMO.

Interestingly, I just heard on the radio news today that they are *taking away* metal flashlights from a "nearby" police force, so they could not use them as impact weapons. They will be issued with plastic lights!?! [Sorry, forget if it was a U.S. or Canada force, is a border station and reports local news on both sides.] Apparently, using a (presumably) heavy flashlight does a lot of damage, beyond what a properly used object designed for the purpose in trained hands will.

It's been like that for years, going back to the '70s after they started issuing heavy aluminum lights. Metal D-cell flashlights make for a pretty good whack. I believe (I'm not a LEO) that the issue was twofold. First, for a non-leathal baton situation, when big flashlights were used the "non" part dissapeared sometimes. Second, since a flashlight technically isn't a weapon, it didn't look good for cops to be hitting folks with them. That leads to lawsuits for exccessive force and other (not using a weapon they were trainded for?) things.

PDs with problems like that either go to Stingers or larger poly SL-20-size flashlights. Could be a lot worse--back in the '70s you'd be stuck with using a drugstore Everready or Ray-o-Vac if they took away your issue aluminum head beater.

I suppose it is planned in the future to replace the material in the baton into rubber or styrofoam. The LEOs would then be carrying Nerf bats. Nerf lights and Nerf bats. Who does the thinking for the LEOs? I'll bet the thinker sits behind a desk and not behind the steering wheel of a police car in an emergency at night.

Let's put it this way - now that most Police HAVE the option of a baton, it would be PROBABLY frowned upon to swing a large heavy flashlight at the "client" as opposed to using the issued baton.

I've heard that it is not a good idea to be a'swingin' a 4 D - there IS more to that story, but all of you are WAY too young and impressionable to hear it!

When I saw that LA cop wailing with his flashlight on that guy they were chasing alongside the freeway awhile back, I said to her "They're gonna take away their flashlights."

She told me yesterday, "Your prediction came true. LA cops are going to be issued rubber flashlights."

give leo's back the aluminum flashlights.
an article in the Sunday oregonian talked about how police are usually smaller physically and less trained in physical combat and not as likely to use physical force to control a situation. than they were in the 1970's or so.
instead they draw their gun.
Portland police have shot a few un armed people recently (this scares me)
and they do not shoot you just once they use the double tap method.
I would rather be clubbed by a flashlight than shot.

One of the main reasons for smaller lights is the better quality you get from SL and SF. Another is weight. There is a lot of stuff on that duty belt and saving a few ounces let alone pounds is worth its weight in gold (excuse the pun!).
Personally I would rather use a 3-4 C cell mag as it would easier to use with baton techniques. The big thing about using a light for protection is what "target" you strike. If you utilize the same criteria as with baton use you should be ok. As for the impact type lights as the E2D for example, I wouldn't count on that as being my only option to use for defence.
For private citizens, I have found that the scrutiny is way below that held for officers, whether LEO or security. The main thing to keep in mind is that you better have a good reason to be using that kind of force. That is the standard EVERYONE will be held too. If you wack someone it better be in self defence and the true threat of immediate death or great bodily injury needs to be present and evident.

For myself, I would not carry any item that I would regret being damaged or lost. Part of the job and you can't control what happens.

As for the original poster, there is always the option of carrying two light. It is not uncommon in the field. Maybe a 2D mag would be good for throwing, then your regular light for your normal lighting needs. This is assuming you carry one of the CR123 type lights.
BTW-to be honest I cannot see the need to throw a light at a driver. You wanna talk about liability. In most states using force against someone who is fleeing is not considered self defence. If anything try to strike and bust out or damage a tail-light, headlight, or crack a window so that it makes the vehicle more easily identifiable to police after the call for help is made. Makes for a faster i.d. when they issue a BOLO and the car has a light that is out.

As for striking the driver, I can only see doing such if they are trying to cause harm, as in trying to run someone down or are using a weapon while still in the vehicle.
Only other reason for such action, IMHO, would be if they had committed a very serious felony offence and the action could be justified as needed to stop the perp.

Luckily, I work an in house gig too that takes security seriously. We have plenty of officers onsite for back up, good communications equipment, and are all certified for baton, OC, handcuffs, and DARTS. I am also state licensed as a security officer and firearms qualified. Before this job I worked several years in contract security and most companies will not allow you to have weapons of any sort due to liability fears unless you are working for a company that handles armed accounts or armored car carriers. I've only had to use my baton once, and luckily it was enough of a deterent that I didn't have to srike the guy, and there were several times in the past that I felt things went smooth because I had a big light in my hand.

But I was taught long ago, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I always made sure I had a good knife along with my maglite, and sometimes one of the small OC sprays, the key ring size, in my front pocket. (Don't carry the same 2 oz. units like LEO's have unless you are certified!) I see it as better to lose my job or my license than any blood.
BTW, if you carry a knife, better use the same standards as are expected when using a firearm for self defence.

The main thing is always be prepared and aware. don't let your guard down or take anything for granted. I'm not saying you have to be ready to jump on everyone you come in contact with, but don't place yourself in a position that would be open.

I hope I don't sound like one of the wannabe's or Rambo types I've run into working in this field (can't stand those guys, they make all the rest of us look bad). But I take this part of the job serious as sometimes bad things happen out there and being prepared is what saves you if the poop hits the fan. Plus most companies don't seem to care about your safety and welfare and whatever they're paying me isn't worth letting someone hurt me because the company doesn't want to get sued.

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markdi said:
give leo's back the aluminum flashlights.
an article in the Sunday oregonian talked about how police are usually smaller physically and less trained in physical combat and not as likely to use physical force to control a situation. than they were in the 1970's or so.


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And all of the retired cops that I've worked with have all said the same thing. They wouldn't want to be a cop today due to all of the regulations officers are held to, BUT, officers today are of a higher quality and better trained than when they were working.
And remember, back in the seventies, cops could get away with alot more than they could today. These guys had some stories to tell that appalled me. Maybe those 70's cops were "better" at physical combat because they could be alot more aggresive than today without the worry of being sued by everyone and their mothers.

I think the cops in the 1970's did not shoot as many un armed persons as Portland cops have recently.
so I think the training is for protecting the cop not the citizen.
I would rather be clubbed by a flashlight if I was out of my mind and having a problem of some sort instead of being shot.

If the officers who protect the public are increasingly restricted in their own self defense then things have indeed reached a sorry state. As was previously mentioned, many of today's officers are smaller than the big Irish cops of yesteryear. Just what is a 5'8" 170lb officer supposed to do when attacked by a 6'4" 275lb perpetrator, hit him with a Polystinger?

Aside from highly publicized police misconduct, most LEOs perform with admirable professionalism even when viciously provoked. I have witnessed several incidents where officers behaved with remarkable restraint in the face of the most digusting, hostile verbal attacks and physical threats. Frankly, I don't know how they do it, and I'll bet that most people who criticize them couldn't hack a single day on the job. (I am not a LEO)

With controversy over Taser use increasing, perhaps as suggested earlier, the Tigerlight (with Fox 5.3) is the best compromise available at the present time.

Brightnorm

In my past I would drive like an idiot and get pulled over.
the police have been pretty nice to me all thing considered.
just let them have other tools to use when they need them.