Looking for a brigher/stronger SF...opinions?

Well, after a long break from flashlight buying, I foolishly took a look around here ;-)

Actually, my wife and I have begun walking more regularly, usually at night, and I'm starting to yearn for something with more power and throw than my E2E/G2/A2. There is actually a lot of wildlife in our neighborhood - racoons, foxes, various pets, teenagers, etc. and after having a pair of racoons growl at us from 15' away...well...I'm not going to carry a pellet gun but a couple hundred lumens of focused light is an option. I strongly favor surefire lights, but I'll always consider something else.

I looked at a local shop today that has a fairish range of SF models, and they have the M4 & M3, but no M3T. Even so, the M3 is a bit more than I would really like to spend right now (read, "Before I buy the M3 or M4, I want to see
what other options are out there "

Here are the options I've thought of, in rough order of cost:

D3 - local dealer has one, fairly cheap. $110

C3 - same thing with a belt clip. $119

M2 w/ Turbo head - more than twice the $$$'s ('cause I'd have to order it - $263 at SF), but less
lumens. BUT, I like this idea because it gives me essentially two lights, although neither is much of a jump above what I have.

M3 - A jump in dollars, size & solidity, but not much jump in lumens over the other '3's (I'm not going to live with 20 mins of life). About $229 at a local dealer.

M3T - I'm figuring this will increase the throw quite a bit, although if I have to order it at MSRP it's a bit jump in $$'s.

M4 - local guy has it, should be the best of the bunch at distance, and it uses an even number of batteries. I figure if I get Pila's, two of the batts that would fit my other lights will drive the M4, yes? About $289 locally.

M6 - Tempting, but more money yet and I'm not going to run the HOLA, so it's not a big jump in lumens. Plus, physcologically, putting 6 batteries into anything is kinda depressing.

Any other ideas? Thoughts? Experiences?

I would suggest that you bite the bullet and go straight to the M6. If you dont you will probably end up upgrading at a later date, so why not just miss out the middle man. Even with the LOLA the output is phenomenal, I just love mine.

stuarty

What about the 10X?
For normal walking a 60/110 lumens bulb and push the button a bit harder and there you got more then 500 lumens for 20 mins.
Yes it is very expensive, but if you're already thinking about the M6, why not consider the 10X if you use it regularly (recharable).

The 10X makes an ideal walking light (or a flashlight to light where you are walking).

Al

I know you said surefire, but what about the Tigerlight or Magcharger?

Cheapest ways to 500 Lumens by far, and both are rechargeable with run times around 1-2 hours.

Bill

How about the D3/C3 with HOLA and Pila batteries for cost effectiveness? Very bright and rechargeable.

Dave

a D3/C3 with KL3 and Pila 150S's is a great combo - 7 hours of rechargeable output which is more than adequate for night-time walking so long as you are in an area with no light pollution from streetlamps etc. the KL3 is surprisingly effective in total darkness. powerful incans will be serious overkill for most of your needs (i have an M6 which is totally unnecessary for my needs but it is just so incredibly entertaining to use!).

perhaps a second lamp for throw when required - again the D3/C3 with P91 would work here, runs well on Pilas. you probably would only use this light in short bursts so a 20 min runtime is not an issue.

this system works well as you have 2 lights fully interchangeable should you experience failure in the field.

Pila lights are excellent value for money and although i prefer my Surefires i do have a Pila G2 and a GL4R and am very impressed with them.

Again if you are out in total darkness then the Pila GL3 or GL4 are interesting especially if you take up the option of modding the LEDs in the tailcap!

Get the M6

I think the other SF lights M2T,M3T, M4 are aren't as good a value when compared to the M6.
The M6 already has a turbohead as a stock unit. It puts out 250 lumens for 1 hour. With the Low bulb, it doesn't get very hot at all. It is a brilliant white light that has a ton of power behind it.

Throw in the 500 lumen bulb and your brighter than many car headlights.

I bought mine new from a local dealer at a gunshow for $280.00. Compare that with the other turbohead models and it is a screaming deal. In fact I see no reason to have the other lights at all, unless you need a weapon mount, or need something real small.

Re: Get the M6

When I decided I wanted a turbo-head model I chose the M6. If I use the HOLA in the M3 or C3 it gives me 20 minutes of run time, or 9 batteries/hour. In the M6 I get 250 lumens at 6 batteries/hour. Thats more lumens than the 3 cell HOLA. Of course, we can all rationalize our purchases, can't we? I know, you spend that kind of money on a light you shouldn't worry about the batteries!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Re: Get the M6

If you're going to use it regularly, Id say get something rechargable. Maybe a Tigerlight with one of Jim's mods? A lot cheaper than the M6, and you'll have "guilt free lumens".

Re: Get Something Else

If you want a size efficient flashlight, stick with the expensive Surefire.
The D3 and C3 and M3 will be in the same league as the Z3. I have the Z3 and it doesn't have the throw that a larger head will give you. You either need to get a turbohead (M3T, M4, M6) or some other flashlight.

Since I'm not rich, I put together the "poor man's" version of a Surefire light by modifying a M@glite. Each of these lights trounces the Z3, even with a P91 HOLA, with longer throw and a larger hotspot.

Want something that's fairly size efficient? Upgrade a Mag 2C with the Carley 1499 bulb and run it on 3x123. I now have a light that will put out just over 250 lumens and will last about 32-35 minutes on a set of batteries.

Or upgrade a Mag 2D configured with the WA 01274 bulb and run it on two stacks of 3x123. I now have a light that puts out over 375 lumens and will last 45 minutes on a set of batteries.

I have a Mag 3D configured with the Carley 809 bulb and run it on two stacks of 4.5x123. I now have a light that puts out over 200 lumens and will last over 2 hours on a set of batteries. That translates into a cost per hour of around $5.50.

I have another 3D configured with the WA 01318 bulb and run it on two stacks of 4x123. I now have a light that puts out over 350 lumens and will last about 70 minutes on a set of batteries.

Each of these upgrades will require the use of an aluminum reflector as the stock plastic reflector may deform after 5-7+ minutes of constant use. Just ask my wife. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

If you want to have a cost effective flashlight, stick with a rechargeable. Of course all of the above options can be setup to run on rechargeable AA's.

Re: Get Something Else

Steve, I really wouldn't worry about getting attacked by raccoons. If a raccoon is going to attack you, a bright light probably won't stop it anyway. If you're trying to use a flashlight that doubles as a weapon, your best bet is a Mag 6C or 6D (bonk!). If you just want a real bright light for regular use, get a rechargeable for crying out loud. M6's and so forth are tactical lights. In your situation I'd just get an Ultrastinger or Tigerlight and be done with it.

Re: Get Something Else

Many thanks to all who responded!

After thinking about this a while longer...

1. I'm not seriously looking at the light as a defensive tool, per se...at least no more than all the folks in horror movies. Although just about any critter I shine the light on decides he's got urgent business elsewhere after staring for a minute.

2. While I'm continuously tempted by rechargeable anything, I find I'm always sticking new batteries in things to "make sure" they will have the juice when I need it - such as my GPS, radios, etc. I don't own a rechargeable flashlight, so I don't know if that would be the same or not. It's just that the pila jobbies are such a neat idea, and so interchangeable. I did find a thread that suggested that the current on the larger lights may be too high for the pilas, however. Anyway, I'm thinking rechargeability is off the list of criteria.

3. My wife knows how much the 10x and the M6 cost. This was a terrible tactical error on my part, but there will be zero plausible deniability post-purchase if I get either of these jobbies. They will have to wait until for a different juncture. AS a note to surefire: Do you guys realize that many of us leave the catalog in the bathroom? Did you realize you put PRICES in the latest one? Seeing the problem here??

4. I live in the city, and while I want a nice bright light, I get a little concerned hearing the descriptions of the M6 or 10x on full blast. I think if I shined either too much around here the cops would arrive shortly afterward. They would spotlight me, I would spotlight them. One-upping the guys with guns and badges...well...I've never had handcuffs on and I don't want to try it ;-)

Mind you - I intend to eventually own both lights, but I need to wait for my wife's short term memory to fade and a house a little closer to country.

5. My analyst/bean counter side took over for a little while:

Model Batts Lumens Runtime Lu-min/batt Cost/hr
M4 4 225 60 3375 $5.00
M6 6 250 60 2500 $7.50
M3 3 125 60 2500 $3.75
C3 3 105 60 2100 $3.75
M2 2 65 60 1950 $2.50
P6 2 65 60 1950 $2.50
E2O 2 25 150 1875 $1.00
E2E 2 60 60 1800 $2.50
M4 HOLA 4 350 20 1750 $15.00
M6 HOLA 6 500 20 1667 $22.50
M3 HOLA 3 250 20 1667 $11.25
C3/HOLA 3 200 20 1333 $11.25
P6 HOLA 2 120 20 1200 $7.50

The M4 seems to offer the best deal, in terms of extracting the greatest number of lumen-minutes (i.e. usable light) from our little red lithium friends. Specs were taken from the '04 SF catalog. Now, to answer the guy who wrote a post elsewhere about why on earth someone would worry about battery cost in a multi-hecto-buck flashlight...well...because he wanted to! Anyway, I thought the chart was interesting.

So, assuming I'm going after an M4 (still thinking about the M3...) and the local guy has it for $290, should I call around? When I was last here often, there was much speculation about Surefire's internet pricing policy...I seem to see list price everywhere now...are there still deals to be had by calling vendors?

Thanks!

Re: Get Something Else

It would appear on paper that the M4 beats the M6, but you've not taken into account the effective runtime based on the output curve.

The M6 produces significantly better light output over more of it's runtime then the M4 does.

Re: Get Something Else

There's a big difference between a flashlight with rechargeable batteries inside (e.g. Pila), and a rechargeable FLASHLIGHT (e.g. Ultrastinger or Tigerlight). A rechargeable flashlight is like a cell phone: you just plug it in or plop it onto a charging stand to charge it, without removing the batteries. The ones that are properly designed can be left on the charger all the time when you're not using them. When you want to leave the house, just grab the light and go. Put it back on the charger when you get back home, and it's always fully charged when you need it. That's how police departments handle their lights; they have better things to do than keep track of the charge level of any particular battery.

You can get a US or TL outfit in the $100 range if you're a little bit careful. If you're using your Surefires a lot, the battery savings alone from the rechargeables will cover the expense after a while.

Re: Get Something Else

The C3 is a great light in my opinion, and a nice step up in performance compared to the E2, the 120 lumen E2E mod, and the G2 with the P60 and 61 bulbs. It's size is relatively small for the amount of light it puts out. Additionally, you could assemble a pseudo M4 using a C3 as the starting point simply by purchasing a C3, an A19 cell extender and the KT2 turbo head. That would give you a very versatile package with outputs of 105, 200, 225 and 350 lumens. The package would also run you a little less than a new M4 if you shop around for the components. Additionally, great deals can be found on Ebay.

I forgot to mention, the pseudo M4 could be put together with the C3 as the base, as well as the D3 and 9P (If you could find a 9P).

Pila G3 vs Surefire C3? Re: Get Something Else

Alright, after thinking about this for a while, I think I've narrowed it down to two choices:

a) Get the Pila G3 series, with or without the rechargeable batteries. 130 lumens beats the 105 out of the C3/D3, and the 125 (maybe just a technicality) of the M3. BUT stronger lamp assemblies aren't really a possibility for this light are they? Will SF lamps fit?

b) Get a C3, which later can be used with the Pila's, and can also be outfitted with a 200 lumen bulb which beats the G3. PLUS, I can get it locally, which satisfies the GHNR (gotta-havit-now-reflex) and it's surefire, which satisfies my surefire snobbishness.

The SF route is no doubt more expensive, and lacks the LED tail light option, but does present the chance to get a turbo head in the future.

Can anyone point me to beam shot comparisons? I seem to recall reading the C3 had more throw, but that the G3 had a nicer beam overall...

Re: Pila G3 vs Surefire C3? Re: Get Something Else

Get The M6!!!

The C3 will only run 200 lumens for 20 minutes...Less really beacause the batteries will run down.

The M6 LOLA will run 250 Lumens for almost an hour. Plus, it stays cool. It's alot cooler than the c3 would be burning for 20 minutes.

If you wanted an M4 for $290, you can get an M6 for $280.00 if you look around.

Re: Pila G3 vs Surefire C3? Re: Get Something Else

Where can I find a new M6 for $280? You can PM me, or send email to s d u n c a n @ w i . r r . c o m (removing the spaces...sorry, I get enough spam as it is)

One of the things that's making Surefire a lot less attractive to me is the price controls. Even my local dealer is not discounting the newer stuff much if at all.

But, getting back to the C3/G3 idea...does anyone have both?

Re: Pila G3 vs Surefire C3? Re: Get Something Else

I have the G3R and the Z3 (P90). Both are nice. I think the P90 may have a tiny bit more throw as the beam is a bit narrower. The PILA throws really really well and has a great side spill. I've been very happy with my PILA lights. Once I have a shift change and get off work earlier I'll probably change to either the GL3R or GL2R as a primary light. Currently I carry the GL4R as my primary duty light