123 Battery Shoot Out

[Size15's]

I suggest that companies supplying, lets say 'large' customers, ship multiple pallets of 38,400 CR123A's a month and quantities in the millions of CR123A batteries a year.

[soffiler]

Just thinking, if the battery factory shares assembly lines between different types and shares parts between different battery types, then the assembly line can be making CR123A one month and making other types the next. It does not have to be making just one type all the time.

I don't know that much specifically about battery manufacturing, but I make my living in manufacturing a variety of tools and lights mostly for the auto industry. I can assure you that what you're describing (flexible manufacturing lines) are VERY difficult to achieve. Not impossible, but certain products lend themselves more than others. I picture battery manufacturing as highly automated which is the antithesis of "flexible".

[Floating Spots]

While not medical, I know of two systems that use 123s.
The first are the 10 year smoke alarms (with the non-replaceable batteries.)
The second is a wireless home security system. The one I have seen uses a combination of 123 cells in all of the sensors. (Window, door, motion, smoke, CO, glass breakage...)
While not high on quantity, I think it is the aggregate markets that support these cells in quantities.

[ltiu]

I don't know that much specifically about battery manufacturing, but I make my living in manufacturing a variety of tools and lights mostly for the auto industry. I can assure you that what you're describing (flexible manufacturing lines) are VERY difficult to achieve. Not impossible, but certain products lend themselves more than others. I picture battery manufacturing as highly automated which is the antithesis of "flexible".

Thanks for sharing your view and experience.

I was actually thinking of the auto industry when I thought about flexibility.

I know that a lot of cars nowadays (from the same manufacturer) share the same chassis. They also share the same components such as tire rims, fuel pumps, door hinges, rear view mirrors and alternators to name a few. Just a thought though that perhaps battery manufacturing is doing the same thing.

[soffiler]

Thanks for sharing your view and experience.

I was actually thinking of the auto industry when I thought about flexibility.

I know that a lot of cars nowadays (from the same manufacturer) share the same chassis. They also share the same components such as tire rims, fuel pumps, door hinges, rear view mirrors and alternators to name a few. Just a thought though that perhaps battery manufacturing is doing the same thing.

This is an interesting discussion, although my point of view seems so different from yours that I hope it does not sound like I am arguing with you.

The way I see it, there are radical differences between cars and batteries, to the point that I do not believe you could possibly compare any aspect of their manufacture. Cars are large and complex; batteries are small and simple.

Car assembly is not highly automated. Yeah, they use automated welding robots to assemble chassis. Robots can be programmed to handle a number of different chassis configurations, so they are somewhat flexible. Beyond that, in general, there's a lot of human effort. Humans are extremely (infinitely?) flexible. Car assembly lines can be flexible.

CR123A batteries don't appear to share any of their mechanical parts with any other battery - there are no other batteries that are the same size as CR123A. In other words, which mechanical part(s) of a CR123A do you think might also fit in a 2032, or an AAA, a D-cell, etc? CR123A probably does share chemicals with certain other cells, but I think the configuration of the assembly line is highly dictated by the mechanical parts. Unlike car assembly lines, I think battery assembly lines are most likely highly dedicated to a single type and are excellent candidates for a high level of automation, but thus become highly inflexible.

[ltiu]

This is an interesting discussion, although my point of view seems so different from yours that I hope it does not sound like I am arguing with you.

Nope, just a good old fashion conversation between flashaholics (or batteryholics).

CR123A batteries don't appear to share any of their mechanical parts with any other battery - there are no other batteries that are the same size as CR123A. In other words, which mechanical part(s) of a CR123A do you think might also fit in a 2032, or an AAA, a D-cell, etc? CR123A probably does share chemicals with certain other cells, but I think the configuration of the assembly line is highly dictated by the mechanical parts. Unlike car assembly lines, I think battery assembly lines are most likely highly dedicated to a single type and are excellent candidates for a high level of automation, but thus become highly inflexible.

One example is the CR223A battery have 2 CR123A batteries in them.

On a different note, I remember reading a few times on CPF that some D cell rechargeable batteries are actually AA batteries inside a D body - both the D and AA have the same mAh capacities.

Maybe, the market for D cell rechargeables is not big enough to warrant a separate assembly line and separate components hence they just put an AA battery inside a D body to re-use common components (the AA battery) and save money in manufacturing costs.

[MorePower]

On a different note, I remember reading a few times on CPF that some D cell rechargeable batteries are actually AA batteries inside a D body - both the D and AA have the same mAh capacities.

Maybe, the market for D cell rechargeables is not big enough to warrant a separate assembly line and separate components hence they just put an AA battery inside a D body to re-use common components (the AA battery) and save money in manufacturing costs.

CR123A cells are not made on flexible manufacturing lines. I can think of no consumer cell that is. Cells require some pretty specialized equipment to manufacture them, and even minor changes can result in pretty major retooling, so making entirely different cell sizes on the same line is right out.

Also, lower capacity rechargeable D cells are almost always made using sub-C cells inside, not AA cells. Some may use AAs, but most contain sub-Cs.

[ltiu]

CR123A cells are not made on flexible manufacturing lines. I can think of no consumer cell that is. Cells require some pretty specialized equipment to manufacture them, and even minor changes can result in pretty major retooling, so making entirely different cell sizes on the same line is right out.

Also, lower capacity rechargeable D cells are almost always made using sub-C cells inside, not AA cells. Some may use AAs, but most contain sub-Cs.

Thanks for clarifying.

[ltiu]

Just a thought, we don't need to produce millions of cells to justify an assembly line in a factory. That's probably why cr123a sells quite expensive.

[soffiler]

Just a thought, we don't need to produce millions of cells to justify an assembly line in a factory. That's probably why cr123a sells quite expensive.

If factory "A" has developed a manufacturing capacity that is pretty well-matched to the marketplace demand, they're probably running pretty efficiently. If factory "B" gets a notion to jump into this market, but can't justify very large volumes (due to the existance of factory "A"), they probably can't be as efficient, and their product will cost more, and they'll sell very little.

That is the underlying thesis I've been using to support the notion that there's still only one factory in the USA making CR123A - Panasonic. There have been some rumors/inputs that a second factory is now also operating in the USA, and I've expressed my doubts based on the above in combination with my own observations of CR123A product bearing "Made In USA" - they all look identical under the wrapper i.e. all coming from the same place.

And once again, I'll be happy to be proven wrong by somebody with FACTS!

[ltiu]

And once again, I'll be happy to be proven wrong by somebody with FACTS!

Where is this Panasonic factory located?

I wonder how one can go about researching about this, call the manufacturer?

Just a thought: The batteries could have been made by the same type of machine that produces look alike batteries, but made in different factories. No proof, just a thought that look alike does not mean from the same factory.

One good thing, with almost everything Made in Somewhere else nowadays, it's good to know some things are still Made in the USA. e2 Lithium L91s and Energizer alkalines are too. But I see Duracells are not.

[soffiler]

Where is this Panasonic factory located?

Working from memory I seem to recall it's in Georgia but please don't quote me, my memory isn't fantastic.

Just a thought: The batteries could have been made by the same type of machine that produces look alike batteries, but made in different factories. No proof, just a thought that look alike does not mean from the same factory.

Actually, I've already dealt with this idea in an earlier posting, but I'll reiterate here. I am not saying they just casually look kinda-sorta the same under the wrapper. I am talking about a close visual inspection under magnification, where little things can be observed, like marks left by crimpers, the dots of the inkjet that marks lot and date codes, etc, etc. They appear identical. It's not totally conclusive but it's pretty darn close. What I said earlier is that no second factory would go out of its way to duplicate these various little details simply to confuse people like us.

Now, if it's a second Panasonic factory, well, that's a different story... you'd expect them to be using the same parts and assembly techniques as the first factory.

[soffiler]

I believe Georgia is correct:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...&postcount=132

[mx125]

Wouldn't a test of the Panasonics show pretty clearly if they are similar? Some suggest Surefire specifies a specific chemstry. . .but again . .a test among the others should show. If they test as well . . .then they work as well, no? Having said this, they may have been added to the results since the last time I checked.

[ltiu]

It is possible that the same factory with the same assembly line can produce multiple different battery chemistries to satisfy each customer's tech specs.

[ltiu]

Comparing battery spec sheets.

Looking at the pulse cycle discharge graphs (aka Typical Perfromance, aka Temprature Characteristics, aka Typical Discharge Characteristics).

Specifically, for 3 sec on at 900mA, 27 sec off at 20 celcius to 1.55v.

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/...CR2_CR123A.pdf

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf

http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/new/Li123_US_OS.pdf

Energizer and Duracells looks exactly alike, at 20/21 celcius to 1.55v, each can give more than 2000 cycles. Panasonic looks way off, at 20 celcius, it can only give about 1850 cycles.

Just wondering. Panasocnics have more mAh rating at 1550 vs. 1500 for Duracell and Energizer. But Panasonic performance charateristics are way below. Still possible made in the same factory, I suppose?

[louie]

At the risk of steering off topic, I note that a couple of camping water purifiers use CR123s:

http://www.rei.com/product/709012
http://www.rei.com/product/750366

Not exactly a huge market....

[dano]

The ONLY U.S. made 123A's come from Panasonic, out of Columbus, Georgia.

That means that Surefire, Ray-o-Vac, Streamlight, Night-Ops, Energizer are all made by Panasonic, as long as they say Made in the USA.

Duracell used to have a factory in Texas, I think, but when Gillette sold Duracell to Proctor & Gamble, that factory was closed, hence, some Duracell 123's look different, but have the Duracell label, as P&G outsources them.

--dan

[ltiu]

The ONLY U.S. made 123A's come from Panasonic, out of Columbus, Georgia.

That means that Surefire, Ray-o-Vac, Streamlight, Night-Ops, Energizer are all made by Panasonic, as long as they say Made in the USA.

Duracell used to have a factory in Texas, I think,

Aha! A second factory in the USA!

but when Gillette sold Duracell to Proctor & Gamble, that factory was closed, hence, some Duracell 123's look different, but have the Duracell label, as P&G outsources them.

--dan

Hrrmmm, I wonder where Duracells are made? On http://www.fenix-store.com, it says their Panasonic CR123A's are made to the same specs as Duracell Ultra DL123A:

https://www.fenix-store.com/product_...roducts_id=367

But are Duracells not made in the same factory as Panasonics, In wonder?

[Mike89]

That means that Surefire, Ray-o-Vac, Streamlight, Night-Ops, Energizer are all made by Panasonic, as long as they say Made in the USA.

Wouldn't that also include Battery Station?

[soffiler]

dano, it certainly sounds like you know exactly what you're talking about.

ltiu and Mike89, if you take dano at face value, clearly you can stop wondering where things come from: if it's a CRCR123A and it says "MADE IN USA" it comes from the Panasonic factory in Georgia. Couldn't be simpler.

[Bullzeyebill]

If all USA batteries are rebadged Panasonic's from Georgia then Tom's tests of USA made CR123's would not show significant differences in performance, including any heat issues? Tom's tests do show some significant diffferences. So will Panasonic produce CR123's with different specs for different companies such as Surefire. Just wondering.

Bill

[soffiler]

If all USA batteries are rebadged Panasonic's from Georgia then Tom's tests of USA made CR123's would not show significant differences in performance, including any heat issues? Tom's tests do show some significant diffferences. So will Panasonic produce CR123's with different specs for different companies such as Surefire. Just wondering.

Bill

For one thing, it should be understood that some normal variation in performance will be seen from cell to cell, even those that are of the same brand, built in the same lot, even built one right after the other. On top of that, Tom's test apparatus is only capable of some particular level of accuracy/precision - it's not perfect. The best way to deal with these variations is to attempt to wash them out statistically by testing a fairly large number of cells. As far as I know, Tom's published data is measured on single cells.

I don't know exactly what "normal" would be for the above, but a first-pass estimate of a few percent for each seems reasonable.

Looking at the data at 1 amp:

Duracell 3.167 Whr
ROV 3.158 Whr (-0.3%)
SF 3.123 Whr (-1.4%)
SL 3.099 Whr (-2.1%)
BS '07 3.003 Whr (-5.2%)

I'd argue that all five of the above, being within about 5% of each other, cannot be called "signficantly" different although my assessment of what is significant is just my own rough estimate.

On top of that, it is rumored that different brands may specify differences in chemistry, and/or possibly even differences in QC to sort out the lower performers, or whatever.

[MorePower]

For one thing, it should be understood that some normal variation in performance will be seen from cell to cell, even those that are of the same brand, built in the same lot, even built one right after the other. On top of that, Tom's test apparatus is only capable of some particular level of accuracy/precision - it's not perfect. The best way to deal with these variations is to attempt to wash them out statistically by testing a fairly large number of cells. As far as I know, Tom's published data is measured on single cells.

I don't know exactly what "normal" would be for the above, but a first-pass estimate of a few percent for each seems reasonable.

Looking at the data at 1 amp:

Duracell 3.167 Whr
ROV 3.158 Whr (-0.3%)
SF 3.123 Whr (-1.4%)
SL 3.099 Whr (-2.1%)
BS '07 3.003 Whr (-5.2%)

I'd argue that all five of the above, being within about 5% of each other, cannot be called "signficantly" different although my assessment of what is significant is just my own rough estimate.

5% difference is completely believable for testing of this type. There are so many factors affecting cell performance that a 5% difference is far from significant. For instance, a difference in the temperature of the room by only a few degrees is enough (especially at high rates of discharge) to affect the results as laid out above.

On top of that, it is rumored that different brands may specify differences in chemistry, and/or possibly even differences in QC to sort out the lower performers, or whatever.

It must also be kept in mind that some of the data in this shoot-out is a few years old. Changes in materials used to build cells occur regularly, so direct comparison of cells produced over a year ago to current production is not necessarily valid.

[resistance1]

We should get a set of AW's new r123a cells in this.

[nzgunnie]

We should get a set of AW's new r123a cells in this.

This post is about primary cells,

This post:http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=117117
is for Li-ions, I'm not sure that it covers AWs latest cells though, but it's the appropriate place to find that info.

[dano]

Here's some differences between the older Gillette Duracells and the P&G outsources:

--Gillette Duracells had a metal ring around the positive end and a black membrane around the negative end (that's covered by the label. The ones I have show an expiration date of 2013 (manufactured in 2003).

Panasonic Duracells have the usual Pansonic characteristics: Black plastic ring with a hexagonal cutout for the positive end, and a green membrane around the negative end, under the label, but visible if you look at the negative end on an angle. These have an expiration date of 2015 (manufactured in 2005).

I still have two Duracell 123's that came with a Surefire 6C, probably from the mid 80's. These have a shiny shrinkwrap around the positive end, and the positive nipple has a vent hole cut into it. They still have enough juice to power the light ( I saved them to keep the 6C all original--but I wouldn't trust them to power anything for a long periord of time, due to their age, etc).

-dan

[ltiu]

Here's some differences between the older Gillette Duracells and the P&G outsources:

--Gillette Duracells had a metal ring around the positive end and a black membrane around the negative end (that's covered by the label. The ones I have show an expiration date of 2013 (manufactured in 2003).

I got some of these from Circuit City. In the form of 223. I got them for $4.23 per pack of one 223 (2 x 123). Expiry is 2013.

[resistance1]

This post is about primary cells,

This post:http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=117117
is for Li-ions, I'm not sure that it covers AWs latest cells though, but it's the appropriate place to find that info.

sorry about that, still new here. now im off to that thread.

[LED61]

Guys, I just received a fresh shipment of Duracell Ultra 123´s from www.batteriesandbutter.com

Cost $1.70 each, MADE IN JAPAN!!!!! where the last ones including the ones Silverfox tested a year ago were made in the USA.