taking the digital camcorder plunge. yikes!

questions:
1) is this camcorder decent for a beginner?
and
2) can i get a better camcorder for the money?

Sony Digital8 Handycam Camcorder

other questions:
3a) i notice some digital camera's boast about anything over a 7X zoom and 7 megapixels. just how great is that?

3b) the camcorder i'm looking @ there says it has a 20X digital zoom. now, are camcorders superior to cameras when it comes to such things? it seems to be a pretty big gap in the numbers between the two.

4) what's so great about Carl Zeiss lenses?

5) what do i need to get myself set up with a digital camcorder as far as memory and connections and such?

6) am i annoying you yet?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I have a DCr-TRV510 Digital 8 and its 4-5 years old. The sony digital 8 camcorders use regular 8mm cassettes which are bigger than what the standard mini DV camcorders use. The camera itself is fairly large compared to the regular digital camcorders also. I bought a canon ZR80 6 months ago and its half the size of my Sony. I paid just under $400 for it.
If I were you I would do a little bit more research on camcorders before you actually bought one.

1. 20X OPTICAL zooms are fairly standard. Dont confuse OPTICAL with DIGITAL zoom. Digital zoom isnt really good for much of anything. Its a marketing gimmick

2. Carl Zeiss is just "name brand" for the lense they use. No better or worse than what the other mainstream camcorders use.

3. It should come with all the cables to hookup to your tv or your computer. There is no "memory" card. Just the video tape.

4. Any still photographs you take with it will be very low resolution and mostly useless(my opinion,YMMV /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Decent for a beginner? Yes
Better camcorder for the money? since I cant find any other digitals at that price, probably not.

Another $100 dollars and you can get a mini DV that will just about fit in your coat pocket /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif

bhds

thanks bhds.

so taking that into consideration, can anyone reccomend some brands and models that are either under $300, well, $400, or reccomend something that comes available with a laid back payment plan (that's part of what caught my eye on the Sony, it can be bought for $10 per month)?

i'd like to hear what's worked well for you guys b4 i get too excited.

thanks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

Edit:
anything look good here @ Abes of Maine? i can actually handle them there and they seem to have good prices.

i found that Canon ZR80 for $278.99! course it's been 6 months and that's the cheapest version of it they have. LOL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Alright here we go. Here's my discource on Digital Camcorders.

The more you spend the better image quality you're going to get. For the most part. The cheapest cameras I would consider are the Canon ZR series. If you can spend a bit more than the Optura 20 has nicer image quality (Bigger lens lets more light in, essentially). The next jump up from that is your Panasonic consumer 3CCD models at about $1500, and then the next jump is to the prosumer stuff like the Canon GL2 or the Panasonic DVX-100A.

I *live* in the reals of digital video. I have an apprenticeship with these guys. I've used the full range there, from the Canon ZR80 right up through the GL2 and into the XL1s and DVX-100. The high end cameras sure shoot a nice picture, but they are expensive and, more importantly, you wouldn't really want to pack one around Disneyland /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

You do not want Digital8, you want MiniDV. The Sony's have 'i.Link' which is Sony's version of Firewire IEEE 1394. Problem? i.Link is only 90% compatable with IEEE 1394 and will cause problems when you can least tolerate them.

About buying the thing, check Reseller Ratings before you do anything. It can happen with anything, but something that is VERY common with cameras and camcorders is that you order the base camera and then the reseller calls to sell you 'accessories.' If you don't pack the overpriced accessories onto your order the camera mysteriously becomes backordered, or your order gets lost. I would just go with Beach Camera. I ordered a camera from them and my sister has ordered 2 (A still and video). No problems and they've always had about the lowest price.

-->Additional note, the cheap Sony MiniDV cameras might look tempting, but the touch screen is a TERRIBLE idea. Can't make *any* adjustments to the camera without opening the LCD screen, and if you ever want to take over the controls manually (Focus, etc) you won't be able to change the controls without jostling the camera as you poke the screen.

To sum up:
Cheap cameras: Canon ZR
Little More Expensive: Canon Optura (20)
Mid-Range: Panasonic 3CCD Consumer
Mid-High: Canon GL2
High-End: Pannisonic DVX-100A


One last note, the DVD burning cameras are another BAD idea. Editing your movies is half the reason you're going digital, and burning your movie straight to DVD in the camera will make it near impossible to edit.

One more last note, tape is important. Mixing tape brands can cause problems as the different brands use slightly different lubes, some of them are incompatible and will gum up your heads. I use the Panasonic PQ line of tapes because they're professional quality, reasonably priced, and they come packaged in a nice box -- no blister packaging. Buy here or here.

PS -- I had just clicked 'submit' when my PowerBook battery went. Usually the machine goes to sleep but something else happened so it shut off all the way, but it looks like my post went though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

man its wild how fast the techlgy grows hect this years pro cams will be toys ina few years i bet

Kind of, the consumer cameras are always adding this and that and getting a higher quality CCD for cheaper...

The pro stuff doesn't progress nearly as fast, because you've already got a huge lens and 3, 1/3" CCD chips. Pro's are not so much interested in bells and whistles as they are good, solid cameras. The big thing now is that HD video is coming down to a Prosumer price level. Sony and I think JVC have HD cameras for under $5000, I'm waiting for the successor to the DVX-100 -- it is truly an awesome camera.

going to be a lot of speilbergs out.imagine if he had axcess to this technolgy in his day. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif

thanks for taking the time to break that down for me Saaby. those links and breakdowns of popular models in their respective price ranges will make this much-much easier.

right now it's looking like the ZR80. most affordable for me and noone here is scoffing @ it, haha. is the ZR85 worth the extra $40? it takes stills during filming, has a slightly more powerful zoom, a dock for memory or multimedia cards, and allows you to record in "motion format". those seem to be the additions the ZR80 doesn't have. or maybe it'll just make things more complicated for my first digi camcorder, huh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

also, Saaby or anyone else who can help:
digi camcorder with still-photo capability vs. digi camera with movie-mode capability?

THANK YOU! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Saaby said:
The Sony's have 'i.Link' which is Sony's version of Firewire IEEE 1394. Problem? i.Link is only 90% compatable with IEEE 1394 and will cause problems when you can least tolerate them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have a link to where I can read up on that? AFAIK, i.LINK is only Sony's brand name for the IEEE-1394 standard, just like FireWire is Apple's trademark.

Anyone here have the dvd minicams and how do you like them? I have a Canon ZR series (earlier model) and while I think it's ok but even if it's minidv, it's still tape.

i didn't know and hadn't read about any of the Sony problems with iLink vs the 1394 spec, but I can say from experience that the JVC models often have quirks in how they are implemented. My friend has a really nice JVC, tiny little minidv tape unit, beautiful. It works fine, but will not accept output from the computer back into the camera. So he can't save off his work that way. There are other things about it too.

I can say that I've had experience with many of the cannon models from the cheapest to some very expensive ones and they have all behaved wonderfully. I will be buying another cannon if my current, almost 5 year old elura minidv camera ever finally dies.

I'm a big cannon fan, their stuff is excellent.

There shouldn't be any incompatibilities between IEEE-1394 <> i.LINK <> FireWire. After all, it's an industry standardized interface and those are just different names for it.

There are however camcorders that have their DV-In turned off, because (at least in Europe) they are taxed differently for not being able to record via DV-In, hence the manufacturer is able to price them more competitively.

A buggy camcorder firmware can be another reason for what seems to be a connection problem and of course Windows is not the best OS out there for video editing and can give you a myriad of problems when it comes to DV. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
BlindedByTheLite said:
digi camcorder with still-photo capability vs. digi camera with movie-mode capability?

[/ QUOTE ]
It really depends on what you want to do: If you want to do video, get a camcorder; if you want to shoot photos get a digital camera. Both systems are best at what they have been designed to do.

[ QUOTE ]
03lab said:
[ QUOTE ]
Saaby said:
The Sony's have 'i.Link' which is Sony's version of Firewire IEEE 1394. Problem? i.Link is only 90% compatable with IEEE 1394 and will cause problems when you can least tolerate them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have a link to where I can read up on that? AFAIK, i.LINK is only Sony's brand name for the IEEE-1394 standard, just like FireWire is Apple's trademark.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I gotta agree here also. Either something's 1394 compliant or it isn't. Firewire/ilink are brand names. My sony ilink works fine with the 3-4 computers I have used it on.

I have the sony digital 8 camera, and I'm not sure which sub-model I have from there. It will work in digital mode, and it will read old hi8 tapes also. This was a requirement for me.

Something not mentioned in anyone's post so far. Analog input and outputs. Figure out if you need them, because there are a lot of cameras out there that do NOT have analog inputs. This means NO inputting of old stuff from your vcr/etc.

Here's my setup, and it has worked for about 200 hours of analog and digital capturing and editing.

sony dcr-trv340
cheap $30 tripod (invaluable)
shorty 4" (yes, that's inch) tripod
high capacity battery
6 tapes
firewire into my pc
pinnacle studio for editing
toshiba dvd-r for recording to dvd

This camera also has a remote control. I'm liking it more as time goes on.

[ QUOTE ]
turbodog said:
[ QUOTE ]
03lab said:
[ QUOTE ]
Saaby said:
The Sony's have 'i.Link' which is Sony's version of Firewire IEEE 1394. Problem? i.Link is only 90% compatable with IEEE 1394 and will cause problems when you can least tolerate them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have a link to where I can read up on that? AFAIK, i.LINK is only Sony's brand name for the IEEE-1394 standard, just like FireWire is Apple's trademark.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I gotta agree here also. Either something's 1394 compliant or it isn't. Firewire/ilink are brand names. My sony ilink works fine with the 3-4 computers I have used it on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I *know* I read some things at some point about the Sony cams not playing nice with iMovie and some other programs, it was several years ago so Sony may have got their act back together. I can't find much on it now so I'll retract my anti-iLink comments, my anti-Digital8 comments remain (Unless you have old Hi8 stuff of course).

As has already been said, if you want stills, buy a still camera, if you want movies, buy a movie camera. Neither is very good at the other one's function. Even the REALLY good {For stills} video cameras are still only about 85% as good as a good still camera, and vise versa.

As I said about the DVD hadicams above, definitely only a good idea for people who are going to shoot and watch. If you *EVER* plan on doing *ANY* editing, get a MiniDV cam.

HERE is a thread about this very subject I started earlier this year. Do your homework and learn about some of the technical features like ccd size, lens size, lcd screen size, optical zoom capability, etc. Also find out if the camera has the ability to convert an analog input signal to digital and has the ability to record it onto a miniDV tape so that you can convert old movies or whatever into digital. Firewire compatibiltiy is good to have too, as long as your computer supports it.

I ended up with a Canon Optura 20, partly due to Saaby's recommendation. I couldn't be happier. I like the longer shape of the camera much better than the tall/narrow shape of the ZR series, and it has a much larger lens, ccd, and LCD while not costing too much more. Well worth the extra $$$. The anaolg to digital feature alone is worth the extra cost of the Optura 20 over the ZR series. Also, the slightly larger body (and the better shape) of the Optura 20 makes the camera easier to control IMHO, giving you a less shaky image.

For the money, and if you can still find it, the Optura 20 is probably your best bet.

The ZR series has Analog to Digital, so that's a moot point.

The problem here is we're going from ZR80 to Optura 20. Optura is just a little more expensive than the ZR90 but it's quite a bit more expensive than the ZR80.

Still, if you could swing the Optura you'd be a happy man.

I think I just jinxed myself, my Canon ZR started eating my tapes. I find it's not uncommon as well after I searched the net. Just picked up the Sonya HC40 tonight, charging and will run it through the paces this holiday. Just a fyi.