Suggestions for InReTECH on future products

I have a large collectfion of modified and home-made torches. Like BuddTX said, there's no such thing as a universal torch that can do everything! (You could call such a torch a SAT (Swiss Army Torch!!!)
I make a variety of torches in the Box Torch format and these are proving to be very populsr over here! I like my torches to have a good battery life particularly when I'm relying on it to produce light for an extended period of time. In these situations I go large... one example is the Benross 4033...this is a 3D/2LED torch and has a VERY long battery life.
I will also go large when I want a really bright blaster such as the Elektrolumens 5W luxeon I have on order. This is a 4D converted to 5C operation and will be the largest working torch I have to date!
I will go small on EdC torches. I usually carry a 2AA single LED torch or a BT1 in my coat pocket which is brought out when I need it! The BT1's four AAA's give very good battery life in a oompact torch.
I also have a number of special torches which have been built or modified with specific tasks in mind such as map reading or hands free book reading.
Another type of LED lighting project I'm looking into is fixed or wall mountable battery-powered LED lights. You can buy 4AA battery powered "push" lights for a quid. 4AA gives you enough voltage to light all colours of LED. I'm thinking of incorporating a cluster of paul Flannery's cyan LED's into one of these lights to create a fixed battery powered light source. One in each room would serve well for emergency lighting! No more scratting around for matches and candles!
These are just a few ideas!

Matt
EMPOWERTORCH

Hmmmm,
A dual 1.2w LS flashlight running three AA batteries, with current regulation to run NiMH batteries. Throw in alkalines, NiCads, Lithiums, NiMH or whatever you have laying around. Nice and bright, stays that way and fairly small.
The Trilight with current/voltage limiters.... maybe with a switch to shut off the limiters to conserve battery power. Switch to turn on one, two or all of the 5W LEDs.
Inretech usually builds lights that replace light bulbs, nothing too exotic. The dual 1.2 watt Luxeon triple AA would be a nice light. One can wish.

Dunno why I think this way, but I still prefer to underdrive a 5 watt LS instead of using 2-3 1 watt LS. Maybe it's because of efficiency? Maybe because of size? But I do know that stepping up power will be a problem.

BuddTX,

You are right, we need to diversify our product line to include some constant level brightness devices. The critical problem we face is that doing one thing well, we are less willing to try things we might not do as well. Believe it or not, the Super6 and AA adapter took the best part of six months to do right. We are still improving on those products. The next step will have to be a big one, and it will cost us a lot to do right. The development cost of the TRILIGHT was less than $500, but that doesn't cost including the thousands we spent learning from the Super6. You wouldn't believe how many false alleys we went down while developing the Super6. I think our current Super6 circuit board design is the fifth or sixth iteration.

Last night as I was laying down resin on our latest batch of LEDs, Mike, Abigail, and I had a brief meeting. (Resin fumes make for short meetings!) We are committed to keep our current product line and construction methodology going until after the Christmas season. After that (hopefully brisk) sales period is over, we will take a hard look at changing methods and developing new products. I think we might look at some different power sources and other projects.

I deeply regret that I can't say what we're going to do until very much before we do it on this forum. There are just too many lawyers in the water. If you would like to talk about thing offline and under the terms of an NDA, that would be great! Your input has really helped us a lot.

What about some sort of 5w drop in for a Legend LX? Or maybe a replacement lamp assm. with a 1W for a Tec40 or a Mini Q40???

Patrick and Mike (did I miss anyone?) at InReTECH.

You are "inventing" some really inovative products, and making them available for sale to the general public. Your company combines the excitement of a high tech hobbiest, with the availability of a business, and at a decent price.

Your Trilight 3D and Helos 6D look like exciting products (can't wait to do the "happy touchdown dance" again when I see these baby's!)

However, I would like to see you invent some really bright LED options for smaller lights.

Now I realise that smaller means less run time and less power (for Alkaline's) or more expensive, (for Lithiums), or brighter for shorter run times, or some combination of these attributes.

But, a lot of times, you might want a bright light that you can throw in your pocket, or put in the glove compartment, or use for hours without it feeling like a burden.

That's why lights like SureFire or my Lambda Illuminator or my LGI 3AA Luxeon Star, or similar, are nice. Sure, it does not have a long run time, but it's run time is acceptable, and they are really bright.

About the biggest light that I feel is light enought and small enough to use for an extended time, is my Streamlight 3C, 10 LED light. Princeton Tec's Surge is also "just in the limit", with 8 AA batteries, it is suprisingly compact.

Now, this is to say nothing bad about lights like your SUPER6. Man, that is a nice light! And it is very unique also.

But, lights are like tools, there are different tools for different jobs. To use an analogy, no matter how many and how perfect your screwdriver collection is, sometimes you need an Allen Wrench.

So, my suggestion to you is to consider inventing some cool, "out of the box", really bright, fill a market nitch, products for smaller lights.

Like (just for example) Multiple Luxeon Stars mounted in a Streamlight Scorpion, or Streamlight 4AA light? Maybe a mod for the Princeton Tec Surge?

Maybe making a "Sizzler" (hey, you could use that name!) Luxeon Star for 2AA and 3AA lights. Something that is super bright, but for a shorter life, something that just sucks out the energy from the batteries (maybe you can call it "The Sucker!" <grin>).

I have been wanting a 3 or 4 LS light in my Brinkmann Legend LX or similar for a long time.

Also, While I like the idea of using 123 Lithiums, man, 2AA Rayovac's are really inexpensive, and really nice batteries, and I have no problem using a set of those batteries for 2-4 hours or so, and load in another set. That's why I mention the Streamlight 4AA light.

Maybe other people can comment here. Do you want your lights to be smaller, or bigger.

It's not like you don't have enough things to do, but this is just food for thought.

The MAGLITE is a wonderfull flashlight and has been around for a long time, there are other flashlights that we would like to make adapters for, and some that we do not want to bother with

Development time is expensive, as we grow we will be able to take more time developing new products - right now, we are concentrating on what we have

Again, there is no "magic bullet", the formula is still:

Operating time x Brightness = Weight

Our goal is to provide the best balance of all three, right now the MEGA6/HELIOS are **EXTREMELY** bright flashlights - but, they are heavy

Mike
www.inretech.com

Originally posted by shipinretech:
You are right, we need to diversify our product line to include some constant level brightness devices.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Patrick,

Thanks for replying. Lots of things to comment on, but some serious thoughts here, even though it is a long reply.

Regulated vs direct drive? Brightest light vs run time? Perfect beam at 100$ vs "pretty darn near perfect" at 20$. Tail cap or twist on? Narrow beam or Wide beam? Big batteries, or small in the hands? All questions that a flashlight manufacture has to ask, and no matter what your answer is, someone wants something else.

I guess you have to look at your potential market, make products that meet the needs of your market, and I think you are. I would think your market is the flashlight using public that may or may not be a "flashlight conneousour", but just wants something better from their light, and maybe doesn't even know what that may be. Us flashoholics will spend 50 dollars without thinking, and a 100 plus purchase requires a little forthought, but within the month, if we really want to buy it, we do. But NON Flashoholics that use and depend on flashlights, might be willing to spend extra for better light, but it has to be affordable and available, and a percieved value in making the purchase. I think, that you are looking to improve the quality of light for the millions of people that use mag-lights, rather than the relatively few of us that are already addicted to flashlights. Hey, it is a fun hobby, and when the need to use a flashlight does present itself, the hobby feeling goes away quickly, and we thank God that we have the right tools to deal with the situation. Last July 4th, a neighbor "lost" her 3 year old daughter, and I was able to hand out many lights to the neighbors in a moment's notice, to look for the baby. We found her, she was buried in the blankets of her parent's bed - Never left the home, but we scoured the neighborhood for about 45 minutes looking for her.

So, back to your market . . .

Last night, I was delayed in walking my dog with my group of people that I walk with, because I had to meet a builder to discuss repairs to my house, so I met one of my friends and her dogs later than normal. I grabbed a whole bunch of my lights because I knew I would be walking mostly in the dark.

She and her dogs are members of a Search and Rescue team here in Houston, and they train weekly, and she had a mini-mag on a laynard attached to her jacket. (She felt she was prepared!)

I grabbed many of my lights, because I knew that I was going to be walking in total darkness, on dirt roads, for maybe an hour and a half.

As it got dark I asked to see how her light compared to mine (she knows I am a flashoholic!). She turned it on, and this sickly yellow "shadows and lines" typical mag light came out of it. Now, I had 2 brighter Luxeon Star lights on me, and my Streamlight 3C, 10 LED light also, but I pulled out my mini mag with your 2AA Luxeon star, and turned it on, and asked her "what do you think of this?" Well, there was no comparison. She was amazed how a standard mag light could produce this light. Even though she knows I have all these cool lights, this was a standard mini-mag, something that she was familiar with. She was truely amazed (she and the other lady I usually walk with are getting one of your 2AA lights for Christmas, but they doesn't know that yet!) When I told her how much it cost (I don't know if your current price is 20 or 25$), but I told her 20$, expecting her to smile and say "what a good deal that is", but instead, she exclaimed, "Wow, 20 bucks for a bulb?" I then had to explain how her batteries would last many times longer than her standard mini-mag, and I explained how the "bulb" will almost never break or go out, and even threw my mini mag on the road to prove my point. From my point of view, hey, twenty bucks is one of the least expensive options for a Luxeon Star, whereas her view was probably that "I could buy over 2 complete mini-mag's for the price of one of those bulbs!"

To compare your drop in 2AA Luxeon Star, say to Peter's ARC LS, who has been perfecting his LS for over a year (I have one of his older "factory seconds" and is really nice), but my friend will never pay 100+ dollars for a light. She was suprised at the 20 dollar price of just the bulb (yes, I know it is an LED that never needs to be replaced or will break) Your product offers "the masses" quality at an affordable price.

I think, like a lot of people here, that regulated lights are great, they offer a constant brightness throughout the majority of the life of the battery.

I don't have an answer to this question, but does the average consumer want or need regulation? 3-5 hours of constant brightness, then gets dim very quickly, or an hour or two at a very very bright output, then DAYS of very bright useable, but diminishing output?

For me, I will take regulated maybe a dc to dc converter for added power, as bright as dad-gum possible, as long as the run time is acceptable. 2-3 hours is fine. BUT, I don't know what other people want. Would my friend view a 2AA light like the one I just described as "GREAT", or as a "Battery waster"? Would she prefer the gentler light of your 2AA more, not haveing that blast of brightness, but haveing more hours of light? I don't have an answer, just bringing up the question.

We in general need more high quality flashlight manufactures, and I want your company to be a success, as I do Peter's at ARC and Elektrolumens is starting to make more than just "hobbiest" lights. I guess you need to balance out what you think your market is, vs what we suggest.

Again, this whole discussion gets back to the fact that flashlights are a variety of tools, and no one flashlight can be all things to all people. Take your two products, for example, the SUPER6 and your 2AA. Both great products, but you would not use the SUPER6, when you really need the 2AA, and vice versa.

Sorry for the long winded reply. It took me 6 hours (with work inturrupting often!) to write this!

Back in March, Mike and I were working up to a single LS/O based regulated 3D solution. We went to lunch and he brought out a MiniMAG that he had cobbled together to use an unregulated, unfocussed light out. He did it just to show off, but it was bright, it was small, and I said that we should sell that. Thinking it through, we realized that we could sell a lot more of these for the huge number of MiniMAGs than we could for the smaller number of 3D MAGlights.

Getting over the need to regulate was a huge conceptual hurdle for both of us. Finding a light gathering device was another practical hurdle that we were struggling with until July. Last month we improved the coating epoxy, and this week we got a better way of applying it.

Currently we have three main products with 1W Luxeon emitters, AA Adapter, Super6, and TRILIGHT. As material becomes avialable, we can sell Mega6 and Helios TRILIGHTs with 5W parts. The TRILIGHT is at the point where I think we can offer it to Emergency Services and military teams. I doubt that we will sell many products to consumers not concerned about emergencies, but that is just me. I will try to pitch this to the American Red Cross before the end of the year.

Pat and Mike......hmmm....are you guys Irish?

We're Oregonians. Better beer, more stubborn, more green, and larger than Ireland. We also don't attack each other, only Californians.

I also routinely carry my White 2AA with Lithium batteries, and get the same response from my friends/relatives when I show it

They always notice the color and the even pattern, then they ask "how long does it last ?" and I tell them

By the way, I am Irish, Scottish, German

CONFIDO

Mike
www.inretech.com

Originally posted by shipinretech:


Currently we have three main products with 1W Luxeon emitters, AA Adapter, Super6, and TRILIGHT. As material becomes avialable, we can sell Mega6 and Helios TRILIGHTs with 5W parts. The TRILIGHT is at the point where I think we can offer it to Emergency Services and military teams. I doubt that we will sell many products to consumers not concerned about emergencies, but that is just me. I will try to pitch this to the American Red Cross before the end of the year.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd suggest you get your website in order first. You have a poor shopping cart ($25.00 will buy you a *much* better one) and there is no way to get back to your home page from it.
But the main problem is finding out what you are selling. Nowhere on any page I can find do you say what you use in most of your lights. Your Trilight uses ? what kind of LED's, has what kind of out put? nice and bright tell us nothing.

Hitting EMS is a good idea. The Red Cross probably not. If they bought they would want a deal and 100,000 of them. Both would be dangerous for a small business that could be oveercome by one of the big boys in short order.

Having a bright low weight flood light that we can carry down a hill side and hang from a tree or on a stick in the ground is something EMS would find great value in. Not having to lug a generator down and up that hill would make a lot of people happy.

I'm posting this here because you don't answer your email.

I understand your concerns about the InReTECH store - I am not happy with it either, it has several "bugs" in it

I am planning on putting up a totally new store custom written for our products and changing over to a more reliable provider

The website has only been up since August 7 of this year

All emails from [email protected] get directed to me and I answer every one

Mike
www.inretech.com

One thing I think might be handy to have would be a rechargeable flashlight that would put out a good bright beam for about 4-5 hours or so. I think a light with about 3 Luxeons would be bright enough for most uses. Maybe you could put in a switch so it only uses 1 if you want a longer lasting beam.

I have heard that most LED products specifically say not to use rechargeables because they do not have current limiting circuits built in. That is one reason that I still keep around an old radio shack flourescent flashlight that ran on 2 AA's.... It worked like a champ on 2 NiMH AA batteries for about an hour at a time (I think Radio Shack is discontinuing the model... when I went to buy replacement bulbs for the light, they told me they were on markdown for just under $2 each, so I picked up a few .... too bad... I like the lights.. they are about the size of a deck of playing cards, and put out about as much light as a 25W light bulb)
I am not really a fanatic about lights, but I do have a Micron II on my keychain, and have a Pal light as well. I just got done ordering an Inretech AA as my first light with a Luxeon led, so I will see if I become one of you true believers after I get it

Originally posted by Brody:
I have heard that most LED products specifically say not to use rechargeables because they do not have current limiting circuits built in.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Brody, I believe they say don't use rechargeables because of the forward voltage. If the flashlight was designed for 3 alkaline (4.5 volts total) then it wouldn't work with 3 rechargeables (@1.2 volts per cell, a 3 pack is 3.6 volts.)
Can anyone back me up supporting this verdict?

Originally posted by INRETECH:
I understand your concerns about the InReTECH store - I am not happy with it either, it has several "bugs" in it

I am planning on putting up a totally new store custom written for our products and changing over to a more reliable provider

The website has only been up since August 7 of this year

All emails from [email protected] get directed to me and I answer every one

Mike
www.inretech.com

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mike, Pat et al,

This post is very critical, but hopefully in a friendly and constructive spirit. I also appreciate the fact that you hope to have a better website soon

Congratulations on great products and friendly and informed posts.

Boo's for a website so frustrating that I almost cancelled the order I just sent in for three adapters.

I was unable to print out the receipt. I immediately checked other sites: no problem. I was unable to save the receipt using every trick in the book. I emailed the receipt to myself in several different modes. No luck, it always came up blank. I assumed you would at least send a confirming email with order details. Well, you did send an email; here's what it said: "Thank you for your order. The total charge to your XXX card was $XX. Sincerely, Inretech customer service staff" To make matters worse, my order was unalterably "finalized" with no possibility or correction, alteration or review. As if that weren't bad enough, when browsing your site it is impossible to get any real information about your products. On top of all there are no shipping options whatsoever, and even worse, although shipping charges are indicated, there is no information about how the items are being shipped.

I have not experienced these problems with any other of the many sites I buy from.

I realize that building a company is a grueling job, and that setting up a proper website is not easy, but I know plenty of folks who have done it and are doing it. A good friend of mine has recently done both. She worked unbelieveably hard for months, but she did it.

Yes, you've only been at it since August, but that's almost three months. I know all about the pressures and problems, and believe me, I am sympathetic, but Pat and Mike, as a fellow flashaholic I must say to you; you've GOT to do better!

Regards
Brightnorm

I am sorry about the problems that you had on the Store, this morning - I am meeting with my Cold-Fusion friend that used to write Webpages for Intel, we are going to put together a totally new store-front for the company; one more user friendly and with newer features

You are not the only one that complains about the store, I have to manually take the orders from the store and re-enter them line by line into a Excel Spreadsheet

Running a business is a lot of work, especially with all the other things that are going on for me; I just ask that you be patient - if you are having a problem using the store, just email me what you are looking for, and I will help you in any way that you can

I can manually process Visa and MC also

Mike
www.inretech.com

Another note:

A couple of weeks ago, I went into a Radio Shack and wanted to buy a couple of resistors for another project that I was working on, I was informed that they had just loaded new software into their computer and they were unable to accept money

They wouldn't even do the transaction by hand, they said that we (5 other customers) would have to WAIT until they got their new software loaded and working into their computer

I went to another store, and they said that they came into the store 2 hrs early to load the new software also, and once they could not get it to run, they went back to the old software, they called up the district manager and had that store put the old software back

There is a old unwritten slogan "when the customer wants to pay for something - take his money"

Mike
www.inretech.com

Originally posted by Stefan:
[QBBrody, I believe they say don't use rechargeables because of the forward voltage. If the flashlight was designed for 3 alkaline (4.5 volts total) then it wouldn't work with 3 rechargeables (@1.2 volts per cell, a 3 pack is 3.6 volts.)
Can anyone back me up supporting this verdict? [/QB]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It depends strongly on how the light was designed. If you design a _regulated_ or light which operates with a 3 cell alkaline pack, then you essentially have to design it so that it will function correctly at about 3V or even slightly lower. The reason is that while an alkaline cell is nominally 1.5V when fresh, the voltage continually drops during discharge...a rather large fraction of the energy is delivered with the cell below 1.2V. In this case, the light should function properly with 1.2V rechargeable cells, even though the nominal full charge voltage will be lower.

If the design is not regulated, but has simple resistive current limiting or other non-regulated electronics (eg. a non-regulated boost converter), and it was intended for use with alkaline AA cells, then it will probably have been designed to operate down to lower voltage, again to deal with the discharge of the cells. This should also probably work fine with rechargeable cells.

The real risk is with systems that depend upon the internal resistance of the alkaline cells to limit the current flowing in the circuit. One can direct drive a Luxeon with a set of 3 alkaline AA cells, with no resistor in the circuit at all. In this case, the internal resistance of the alkaline cells is sufficient to limit the current to an 'acceptable overdrive' level.

But the Vf of most Luxeons is below 3.6V, and if you use the rechargeable cells in a direct drive application, then the current can be high enough to destroy the Luxeon.

-Jon