LED vs. incandescent

Harri

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Hi!

I asked about LED light that could replace my Scorpion - no such thing was the answer. Ok. Somebody hinted that the upcoming 5W LS might be the thing - but with very limited run time. There was also some talk about efficiency of LED compared to the best incandescent bulbs (couldn't find it now).

Now SureFire has released information about their LED lights. This is interesting because even though if they would be biased somehow, the same bias should be applied to both lights... so lets take a look:

1) E1E has 15 lumens for 90 minutes
2) E1E+KL1 has 16 lumens for 1.5 hours and with some light still left there for hours.

Don't they look very much the same? How about E2E?
1) E2E+MN02 gives 25 lumens for 2.5 hours
2) E2E+KL1 is rated 17 lumens for 4 hours and then some.

This is not quite comparable, but some indication still. So currently the LED tehcnology might be just a little better than incandescent (Although we must remeber that the KL1 is regulated and E1E or E2E are not). But what happens when we get the 5W LS? We might be getting the 60 lumens of E2E (or do we get more?), but will the run time be less than 75 minutes then?

Harri.
 

Charles Bradshaw

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The primary advantage of the LED, whether Nichia or Luxeon Star, is no filament or glass globe to break when dropped. The other primary advantage is the life of the LED.

123s are notorious for short runtime. Even so, I am considering a Brinkmann Legend LX, as I have a limited use for one.
 

grift

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Charles,
get the Legend LX, for the money it is a fabulous light. it will amaze you how much light it puts out, and how fast it eats 123 batteries (all these type lights eat batteries fast though)
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Harrkev

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Originally posted by Charles Bradshaw:
I am considering a Brinkmann Legend LX, as I have a limited use for one.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need a use in order to buy a flashlight!!!

For shame. You are supposed to buy them just because.
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RonM

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The LX is a "must have." The beam is so bright and so nicely dispersed, it's hard to believe it's a $20 flashlight.
 

Ratso

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Originally posted by Harrkev:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Charles Bradshaw:
I am considering a Brinkmann Legend LX, as I have a limited use for one.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need a use in order to buy a flashlight!!!

For shame. You are supposed to buy them just because.
grin.gif
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, he is buying the light because he is not going to use it much! Thats real flashaholic spirit.
grin.gif


Back on topic:

I don't know if you have considered this but remember the Surefire KL1 head fits the Scorpion too, although it is rather ugly.
 

Orion

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Okay, is this line of thought logical?......

E1E with one CR123A = 15 lumens (roughly)
Arc LS with one CR123A = 18 lumens (roughly)

In this sense, it would appear that the LED has bested an incandecsent (of great quality and bulb type) of the same approximate size. Is this the case?
 

this_is_nascar

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Originally posted by Orion:
Okay, is this line of thought logical?......

E1E with one CR123A = 15 lumens (roughly)
Arc LS with one CR123A = 18 lumens (roughly)

In this sense, it would appear that the LED has bested an incandecsent (of great quality and bulb type) of the same approximate size. Is this the case?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can't compare LED's and incandecsent. No matter what the numbers say, the lights serve two different purposes.
 

Orion

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I've never seen the output of an E1E in person, so I don't know how well they do. If someone would like to donate theirs to me, I'll compare it with a single 123 Arc.
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hokiefritz

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My E1e has way more throw and a brighter hot spot than the Arc. It is a great all around and tiny flashlight. My Arc LS is more of a flood and best suited for lighting up a room or hallway, or for up-close tasks. It makes a great lamp if you need area lighting. I like the Arc, but I don't consider it better than the E1e by any means. As said above, they truly serve two different purposes.
 

Harri

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Originally posted by Orion:
Okay, is this line of thought logical?......

E1E with one CR123A = 15 lumens (roughly)
Arc LS with one CR123A = 18 lumens (roughly)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, no. Why would it be? First of all, where did you get the lumens count for Arc LS? From Brock's page you can see that the E1E+KL1 is much brighter than Arc LS. And the numbers that I quoted where from the same source: SureFire. In their numbers E1E+KL1 has about as much lumens as E1E with the normal bulb. So putting together Surefire and Brocks measurements - I just can not believe Arc LS would be 18 lumens - or those 18 lumens would not be comparable to the numbers presented by Surefire. Notice that the lumens for SureFire products are from the same source - that makes then comparable against each other. If you give numbers for some other light from some other measurement source - They just aren't comparable!
(Of course Brock measured the lights in candelas, but as they have the same LED, the beam should have the same shape - thus equal candelas would roughly point to equal lumens too.)

Originally posted by this_is_nascar:
You can't compare LED's and incandecsent. No matter what the numbers say, the lights serve two different purposes.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course they serve totally different purposes - one is a spot light, and the other is a flood light. But the numbers Surefire are giving are not candelas, but lumens. There's been lots of threads about the difference of the two. Lumens tell you how much light comes out of the light all directions summed up. Candelas tells you how bright one point in space is (usually the brightest spot). Candelas could be interpreted so that they tell you how small spot does the light have (if you know the lumens) and therefore far the light can shine. In that sense (candelas) you would be correct that it's not correct to compare lights with totally different applications, spot and flood. But lumens simply tell you how much light comes out of the flashlight. Besides you could mount a beam shifter to E1E to get a flood (of course the filter would probably eat some lumens...).

So, in this case, where the measurements are from the same source (even though it's a commercial company that doesn't matter as both products are their own products - why would they wan't to make one look better than the other?), and the measurement doesn't care if the light is a spot light or flood light (just the total light output), I really think they can be compared in sense of how much total light do you get from the same battery and for what time.

And in this case it seams that high power LED's aren't really that much more efficient than incandescent bulbs - and the question is what about 5W LS?

Harri
 

Sean

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Originally posted by Harri:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orion:
Okay, is this line of thought logical?......

E1E with one CR123A = 15 lumens (roughly)
Arc LS with one CR123A = 18 lumens (roughly)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, no. Why would it be? First of all, where did you get the lumens count for Arc LS? From Brock's page you can see that the E1E+KL1 is much brighter than Arc LS. And the numbers that I quoted where from the same source: SureFire. In their numbers E1E+KL1 has about as much lumens as E1E with the normal bulb. So putting together Surefire and Brocks measurements - I just can not believe Arc LS would be 18 lumens - or those 18 lumens would not be comparable to the numbers presented by Surefire. Notice that the lumens for SureFire products are from the same source - that makes then comparable against each other. If you give numbers for some other light from some other measurement source - They just aren't comparable!
(Of course Brock measured the lights in candelas, but as they have the same LED, the beam should have the same shape - thus equal candelas would roughly point to equal lumens too.)
Harri
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I think Orion was referring to the current production Arc LS (hybrid) that runs at 400mA. The Arc LS on Brocks page is a 300mA version1 and will not compare to either the new LS Hybrids or the Surefire KL1.

The 18 lumen figure for the current Arc LS hybrids is a bit high but can be found on dealers websites, describing the LS to be 18 lumens.

Where did they get that number? The Luxeon used in both the KL1 & LS is rated on average to put out 18 lumens @ 350mA. Since both the KL1 and Arc LS hybrids drive the Luxeon beyond 350mA you would assume to get 18 lumens. Well, this varies from LED to LED, as you can see on Brock's site. It shows that the KL3 is dimmer than the KL1, even though Surefire rated it to be brighter.

What Brock needs is a current LS to test.
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Luxeons vary. 'nascar know this, He had 4 KL1's and the difference in brightness between them was very noticeable.

In my tests the KL1 is 2%(max) dimmer on the E1 than the E2. The literature that came with my KL1 confirms this.

My tests also have shown that the KL1 (the one I have) is about 20% brighter than the Arc LS 400mA hybrid I have. So brighness goes to the KL1. But runtime goes to Arc: 2.5 hours regulated -vs- 1.5 hours with the KL1 & E1(e) combo. The KL1 runs over 4 hours regulated on an E2(e). So you have to pick what you want between size, battery life & brightness.

As far as comparing LED's to incandescents, I would say that they are getting closer. They are different "animals". But in my opinion, the 2D cell wal-mart flashlight or even the E1 (both about 15 lumens according to Surefire) don't compare to my Arc LS or KL1 up to 50'. And beyond 50' The E1's small hotspot is near it's limit anyway.

In the KL1 & Arc LS, the Luxeon LED makes a great short range light. Not quite flood, not tightly focused either. Much more pleasing to the eyes (IMO) than the stock E1 or even the E2 with 25 lumen MN02.

By the way, here are some 10' shots of the Arc LS 400mA hybrid, Arc LS 500mA hybrid, KL1 & stock E1:

kl1vse1.jpg


ls1beams3.jpg
 

this_is_nascar

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Originally posted by Vikas Sontakke:
Sean,

Can you update your beam shots to add incandescent to the mix? I would love to see how E1 or WalMartD2 would fare against LS.

Very rarely I come across a beam shot where both LED and incandescent is shown.

- Vikas

Here are some comparisons that I did

Beamshots of LI, LGI, Nextar MiniMag, Mag3D
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, again and again. You won't usually see incandescents and LED beam shots together because is reveals and proves nothing. The current state of technlogoy puts LED and incandescents too far apart. If you want "throw" an LED will not do it for you. If you want "generalized", workable, task-light features an LED will be the best bet.
 

this_is_nascar

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By the way Sean, the other day I got those other 2-KL1's. One of them went back. It was horrible. Not only the dimmest that I've seen, but the greenest also. I've never had a luxeon star that was that green. I couldn't even bring myself to sell it to anyone, it was that bad.
 

Charles Bradshaw

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To all of you that recommended that I get the LX: I got one and am extremely happy with it. My Reactor doesn't throw as far, but the Versalux in my 2D Mag comes close. The LX is the brightest light I have.

On topic: LEDs and incandescants have different purposes. Though you can get reasonable LED replacement bulbs for most 2 - 4 cell incandescant lights.

With incandescants, it is often the reflector and bulb placement that makes it P.O.S., crappy, okay, decent, or Super.

Back to the LX for a moment, Jeff at Brinkmann customer service told me they are working on an accessory pack for the LX and will come out with it soon (he didn't say how soon).
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Sean

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Originally posted by this_is_nascar:
By the way Sean, the other day I got those other 2-KL1's. One of them went back. It was horrible. Not only the dimmest that I've seen, but the greenest also. I've never had a luxeon star that was that green. I couldn't even bring myself to sell it to anyone, it was that bad.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That sucks! I thought they were sorting those luxeons, imagine if you had only bought one, and that was the one you got, not having any others to compare it to!

Originally posted by Vikas Sontakke:
Sean,

Can you update your beam shots to add incandescent to the mix? I would love to see how E1 or WalMartD2 would fare against LS.

Very rarely I come across a beam shot where both LED and incandescent is shown.

- Vikas

Here are some comparisons that I did

Beamshots of LI, LGI, Nextar MiniMag, Mag3D
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, the E1 in the picture above is an incandescent E1.
smile.gif
Of course it's pictured with a KL1 so I'll take one with an Arc LS (400mA version).

Here you go, I took a comparison shot between a 2D cell light with new Alkalines and my Arc LS & another shot between the Arc LS and the Surefire E1 (incandescent).

lsvsdcell.jpg
 

Harri

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Sean, thanks for the grat pictures - even though I wasn't asking for them.
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Ok, so maybe I got the wrong forum here. I know I do not write very well, but in my original post I did not state or ask anywhere whether LED or incandescent lights would be better for some perticular job. Still many of you just argue that LEDs and regular lights are for different purposes - that was not the point, nor even the topic! I was not looking for a flash light suggestions (like the LX!!) at all.
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I guess I wasn't explisit enough on my post, but I think it was quite clear that what I was looking for was what is the efficiency of LEDs against incandescent light in terms of (very unscientific formula, but I hope you get the point now) "total light output for some time" per "the same power source" - i.e. something like lumen_minutes/amper_hours. (The beam shape, and thus the throw, is just optics
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) And in that regards, according to Surefire, LEDs and incandescent are quite close - with the edge on LEDs. But the efficiency of LEDs are not what I thought they'd be
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- so the question is, what about 5W LEDs? Will they already be worse than incandescent in terms of efficiency of providing light for some time from some battery? (Not talking about the size of the spot here now, and not about the throw either! Just the light output) Or will they actually be more efficient? Which way is the near future of LEDs going? Monster heat sinks, light output (lumens, not the throw!) of E2e, run time of 20min, or what? Does anybody have a clue? or are you just going to recommend the Brinkman LX again?

Harri

Sorry for the rant, but you guys tend to get off-topic all the time. I thought this might be the forum that knows most about the LEDs and their future, but maybe I was wrong...
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Steelwolf

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Harri: We are all enthusiasts, not objective scientists. This always skews the opinions.

With regard to beam shape, throw distance, LEDs have always started out slightly short. They use a built-in lens for 3mm and 5mm LEDs and that collimator for the LS. Incandescents achieve their focus via reflectors. A study of optics will reveal that it is easier to focus light more tightly using reflectors rather than lenses.

To achieve the same level of focus, lenses tend to be very thick, or require a compound arrangement (2 or more lenses arranged with proper distances between). Having a thick lens means more losses as the light travels through the material. A compound lens mean unwieldiness. Can you imagine a SLR camera's 300mm lens hanging out the front of your flashlight? Fresnel lenses are another matter having some other problems including extra costs.

Now you can see why the side-emitters were such a breakthrough as it permits the use of reflectors to shape the beam. There are fewer losses when using a good reflector versus a good lens.

As to the question of effieciency, LEDs always won in the lower output arena. When comparing a Mag Solitaire to a Arc-AAA or Infinity Ultra, you can get the same brightness (sometimes a little more) for a much longer time. And with the regulator circuits, the Arc-AAA maintains almost the same output for 5 hours, whereas the Mag Solitaire is already dimmer after the first 20min or so.

In the area of high output, high wattage halogen-filled filament bulbs have tended to be more efficient in terms of lumens per watt. Even more so for those that are filled with xenon rather than krypton. But the prize goes to arc-discharge lamps for lumens per watt. There used to be a chart showing the comparisons, but I don't know where it is being hosted now.

Those orange coloured street lamps are low-pressure sodium filled arc-discharge. They are the most efficient, but they have that awful orange colour. I'm not sure, but I think the high-pressure sodiums are a little more efficient, though much more costly to produce. These lights have their own little problem in that they require a very high voltage at the bulb to achieve the discharge arc. Hence the need for heavy ballasts and transformers. And of course the little worry in handheld versions of dropping the light and cracking that expensive bulb. Oh yeah, there is also the warm-up time that these things need.

Not as efficient but more portable and with better colour rendition are the xenon-filled, short-arc, high-intensity discharge lamps, seen in various forms as the UKE Light Cannon, and the headlamps in the latest models of the Honda S2000. (Other models of HID lights are also discussed in the HID forum.) Same problem of warm-up time, heavy ballasts and susceptibility to excessive shock or vibration.

Another problem is that these are high-output lights, which means consuming large amounts of power, which means lots of bloody heavy batteries. And I'm not sure if HIDs fade like filament bulbs fade as the power runs out, or does the power supply need to be carefully regulated.
 

Sean

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I think you already answered your own question as far as the 1W luxeons go:

E1: 15 lumens for 90 minutes. Since it's output is not regulated the 90 minutes of light output is not very impressive as seen here on Roy's graph:

e1.jpg


Now, the same E1 with a KL1 puts out 16 lumens and maintains it's output for 90 minutes, still putting out useful light at 2 hours:

kl1-1.jpg


Considering the regulation eats some of the battery life in the KL1 I would say that LED's are definately competing with incandescents and are more efficient. Not to mention that they don't blow when you drop them.

As far as the 5W emitter it's too early to tell. But if it lives up to it's specs then it should be more efficient than incandescents:

E2e = 5 watt bulb = 60 lumens
5W LS = 5 watt LED = 120 lumens

It looks good on paper, lets hope it lives up to the hype.

Did I help any?
 
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