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Thread: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

  1. #211

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Cordite? Surely you jest. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I don't know where any could even be found since the early days of World War II. It was a late 1800s, very early 1900s British propellant.

    I still haven't had a Lithium cell burn or blow up. But a friend did last year with a couple of new, Chinese-made cells in a brand new UK 2L I had bought her. I sent the whole mess to one of the posters on this thread to examine and toss.

    Most that I know locally have transitioned to single CR123A celled lights for lights kept loaded. These aren't people with need for an always loaded 2x123 light.

    One lady friend some time ago traded her SL Twin Task 2L for the 1L version. As a glovebox light it'll do everything the 2L does, just doesn't throw as far with the incandescent lamp.

    Most all of the lights I use frequently and therefoer keep loaded are single cell lights with a Lithium primary cell or a Lithium-Ion rechargable battery.

    I'm not so concerned for one blowing up and hurting me as for one exploding, starting a fire and destroying a house, hotel, airplane or car.

  2. #212

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    the lights say the batteries are good for 10 years. I have an Inova T2 that will be VERY rarely used since I will be getting the 1 123A version of the light soon.

    Should I take the batteries out of my Inova T2 (2x 123A batteries)?

    I also keep 2 123A batteries in my surefire E2E which is never used just sits on my nightstand most nights next to the peace keeper.

  3. #213
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Something I didn't see any mention of in this long thread was that the light in question was probably left on![img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

    I believe the wife in question turned the light on and it went dim after a few minutes, most likely it went out after that. In a non-flashaholic mind off is off right? Make sure you turn those lights off folks, and if the batteries seem dead take em out and throw them away.

    I also was wondering about the wisdom of putting burning lithium batteries under the sink to put them out. Sounds like explosion number two in the making. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

  4. #214

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Anyone notice the following in Energizer's Product Safety Data Sheet?

    "Mechanical Containment: Containment of this battery in a manner that obstructs or defeats the safety vent or electrical disconnect mechanisms designed into this battery can result in fire and/or explosion and cause personal injury and device damage. This battery is not designed to be potted, enclosed in hermetic overpackaging, or sealed by any means that prevents free operation of the designed safety mechanisms." (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithi...oxide_psds.pdf)

    This seems to indicate that sealed CR123 flashlights are a no-no...

    Also noteworthy, the maximum reverse charge current of an EL123 is 2 MICROamps (from the EL123 datasheet http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/el123.pdf).

    This seems to indicate that mixing batteries with different charge levels is as much of a no-no as other forum posters have indicated. 2uA is a really tiny amount of current.

  5. #215
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    I'm wondering if the older X5's present a greater hazard for those of us who use them to finish off batteries that are no longer able to drive big lights like the L4.

    Unlike the current X5T with its tailcap, the older units are essentially very tall aluminum cups or thimbles, only open at the mouth -- and that's plugged up with a solidly threaded and O-ringed head. I've always noticed the lithium smell more readily with my two X5's then I have with any of my other 2x123 units (of which I suddenly seem to have a lot).

  6. #216
    Flashaholic jashhash's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    so now we need venting holes in those water proof flashlights? Imagine the lawsuits waiting to happen to the creators of all those lithium lights out there without vent holes.

  7. #217

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    there are going to be bad 123's. probably made in china(no offense to chinese people from me). i hope the person that bought the 50 cent 123's didn't also buy the $2 smoke alarm at save-u-lot! on the whole i wouldn't sweat it. the only reason the pics got posted and scared so many people is because this is a collectors forum. you know how many other consumer/pro-sumer ddevices blow up EVERYday and don't even make the news? so if 10 batteries out of 50 million(just a wild speculation) blow up it is a very low percentage. like people that won't go on an airplane because they are 'unsafe'. cars are WAY less safe than airplanes. and i doubt 123's or li-ions are any less safe than alkalines.

    however! dont be dumb and test fate! don't mix brands. don't mix old and new. don't load backwards(even if it still lights!).don't buy cheap brands unless they are surefire on the web.

    i bet way more 15 cent aaa alkaline's have popped than 123's! simply because there ARE way more 15 cent aaa's than 123's!

    nitebrite.

  8. #218
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Hello Nitebrite,

    While I tend to agree with you, the fact remains that there is more energy in these cells and the "pop" observed with alkaline's and Nickle cells has the potential to turn into a "bang with flame" with these cells.

    Tom

  9. #219

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    so are these 123's something to really worry about? or is it in line with my analogy about airplanes? ie. it doesnt happen that often but when it does everyone hears about it.

    how many times has it been documented that this has happened?


    nitebrite.

  10. #220
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Hello Nitebrite,

    I believe it happens more often than airplanes, but not very often... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    I recently read that there have been 83 cases of cell phone batteries exploding in the last two years. I have no numbers for flashlights or cameras.

    Tom

  11. #221
    Flashaholic zelda's Avatar
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    Wink Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Here a small video with Li-Ion cells without protection....
    (Overcharging with 6V and 6A to accelerate process)

    http://www.batteryshop.de/battery/ak.../akkutest.html


    enjoy

  12. #222
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Hello Zelda,

    That video demonstrates that the rapid part of "rapid venting with flame" can be very rapid (and perhaps explosive).

    A few comments...

    The results would have been similar, but less spectactular, charging to 4.5 volts, but would have taken longer.

    The safe limit for charging Li-Ion cells (so far...) is 1C with suggestions that it is easier on the cell if you reduce that to 0.7C. The cell(s) in the video were rated at 800 mAh and charged at 6000 mA. That works out to 7.5C. You may be able to get similar results by simply using that charge rate and charging to 4.2 volts...

    Finally, 100 C (212 F) is really hot. Cell damage occurs at temperatures in the 80 C (176 F) range, and I prefer to stop my testing when temperatures reach the 60 C (140 F) range.

    All in all, this is a good reminder that we need to keep an eye on things when we are recharging Li-Ion chemistry.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  13. #223
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    I had a similar problem with my King Pelican submersible light when after a night dive one evening I stored the light in my lounge overnight and early the next morning I heard a big BANG!
    Got up and found the light all over the lounge.
    Luckily no one was injured.
    What I think happened is that a little sea water entered the light and corroded some of the cells coursing a gas buildup.
    Although I was using D size Alkaline cells this goes to show what can happen with gas buildup from cells in sealled lights.
    Maybe lights should have one way valves to vent gases!!
    RY3, glad no one was hurt.

  14. #224
    Flashaholic* Paul_in_Maryland's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    See also these threads in the electronics/batteries forum:

    Chinese Lithium Batteries: Explosion Danger?

    CR123A meltdown in PM6: What happened?

    And thanks for changing the title of this thread. I never glanced at it till I saw the new title.
    My lights, all AA, neutral or warm: 3 Fenix TK20s; 2 Malkoff M30WFs; 2 Shiningbeam Romisens (5A); Dereelight XP-G R5 (close enough); UK 4AA incan.

  15. #225
    Enlightened assassin337's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    well this is a noob question but what are the dangers with a regular battery such as duracell(i know i spelled that wrong).

  16. #226
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    Dear LORD!


    You mean the batteries popped an aluminum battery cap? Looks like an m-80 hit it.

  17. #227
    Flashaholic* missionaryman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    so shouldn't this NOT happen with primary lithium? I thought it was only rechargeables the did this...
    "Let your light shine" - it's the one commandment we all obey...

  18. #228
    Flashaholic* Manzerick's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    We really need the full scoop!! RIP M6!


    How long were they there?


    How old were the batteries and what brand(s)?

  19. #229
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mags
    I think these kind of accidents might encourage manufacturers to start designing their lights so that they might be vented in some way. That would be quite a challenge though.
    I own myself a light with hydrogen catalyst-pellets and umbrella-vent...
    Its the Streamlight Propoly 4AA Luxeon

  20. #230

    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    In reply to Ron,

    I believe you concerning the batteries not being mixed. I posted in another area concerning explosion issues and then found this thread. I bought a pair of inexpensive (2 for $20 at Sam's Club) Cyclops halogen lights that are powered by 123 type batteries. I was using one when upgrading one of our PCs. The light went out and I continued working while using an LED flashlight. About 1 or 2 hours later I heard a pop and hoped against hope that the computer wasn't the source. After some head scratching I realized that the source was the Cyclops.

    I threw out the flashlight but will try to retrieve the batteries for a picture. They are outdoors near my house. I was more than a bit paranoid that night. In addition to the noise and heat there was a horrible odor from the explosion. The light itself remained intact which was nice.

    The point of this post is to assure those reading the forum that these were the original Cyclops branded batteries. What I think happened is that I left the switch in the on position and one battery charged the other which caused a heat the gas build up.

    I have removed all 123 lights from my car... and I am a bit paranoid about where I store these. I don't want them to be turned on inadvertantly.


  21. #231
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    Hello Missionaryman,

    Quote Originally Posted by missionaryman
    so shouldn't this NOT happen with primary lithium? I thought it was only rechargeables the did this...
    If you try to recharge a primary cell, this can be the results. Rechargeable cells also have this problem if they are damaged, or if the charge rate is too fast, or if the cells are overcharged.

    Never mix old and new cells, or cells of different brands in a multi cell light. It is just not worth the risk.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  22. #232
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    Hello Martytoo,

    Thank you for sharing your experience. I look forward to seeing your pictures...

    Many people are very concerned about using up every last bit of power in their cells. In a single cell light, this is OK, but if the practice carries over to multi cell lights, there may be similar problems as those pointed out in this thread.

    I store my new CR123 cells in a fireproof safe on a steel shelf, away from combustible materials. I am not paranoid, just safe...

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  23. #233

    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    Here you go. Notice how the bottom of the left cell looks indented in the pictures. Also the right cell is bulging due to the force of the explosion. I am happy that these are not as intense as what happened to Ron.




    Last edited by martytoo; 02-18-2006 at 01:16 PM.

  24. #234
    Flashaholic* roguesw's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    i just bought some panasonic 123 cells from hk, available in packs of four, i bought 20 of them and found out i had 3 leaking cells from 3 different packs
    each of them were leaking battery acid and had a small puncture mark
    i didnt notice the puncture mark until i removed the battery sleve
    beware, even new battery packs from the factory might have some that are leaking so check new batteries as well.
    just a thought
    KL-4+Vital Gear FB02
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  25. #235
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    Makes me glad I didn't buy a lithium Lux V flashlight (and I thought That would never happen!)

  26. #236

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Kind of brings new meaning to the name "Surefire".

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If you dig, there is a story around here about a Nuclear plant that issued SureFire lights. After the wall locker burned, they pulled all SureFire lights from use. And this is not the only case....

  27. #237

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray_of_Light
    To measure flash-amps, set your DMM on 20 Amp scale, and measure the current flowing through the 123 cell.
    Remember to keep the reading shorter than one or two seconds.

    Anthony

    You'll likely fry your meter doing that. Most meters that have a 20 Amp scale are not fused as such. Maybe not a big deal with a cheapo meter, but I sure wouldn't want to try it with my $400 Fluke.

    Dave

  28. #238
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by BC0311
    Cordite? Surely you jest. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I don't know where any could even be found since the early days of World War II. It was a late 1800s, very early 1900s British propellant.
    Sorry for the very late reply, but I have two cases of .303 British ammo loaded with Cordite. I'm not in a hurry to take it all apart, but I certainly know where probably a few pounds of it is!
    "That's what makes SF so badass... we've got the best flashlights."

  29. #239

    Evilgrin07 Re: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

    I am new to this website. I use almost entirely 123A rechargeables for my torches. I think the word to always remember is "SAFETY".

    Most 123As, and in fact, AAs, AAAs, Buttons and the lot, are now made in China. Yes, even the big names such as Duracell and Energizer are no exceptions.

    I think the following guidelines, many based on earlier views expressed in this thread, should be seriously observed.

    1. Never mix batteries of different brands or of different degrees of exhaustions.
    2. Change or recharge entire sets once the light becomes dimmer. Don't wait until the light goes out or by trying to turn to a lower setting and wait till the light dims out completely.
    3. Try not to turn your light on for longer than necessary. Always turn off when they become hot. If you need to use a light for longer periods, best to carry two or more lights and use them in turn.
    4. Check your batteries weekly, or sooner, and everytime before you go out intending to use the lights. Check for leakages and indents at top and bottom. Some designs which turn on the light by turning the tailcap, e.g. 6P, can cause the batteries to be too tightly squeezed. Given time this may cause indents. especially with cheaper Chinese torches.
    5. Take care where you leave your lights normally. If you have a light in the kitchen, as in the case in this thread, keep clear of the oven ,cookers, tabs and any known sources of heat and water. And, like drugs, keep out of reach of children (and dogs and cats).

    Accidents can always happen. The name of the game, however, is to take all necessary precautions so as to avoid them. An instrument can always be dangerous if the master of it is not too careful.

    I hope I have been of some help.
    Last edited by Windscale; 03-22-2006 at 11:18 AM.

  30. #240

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Everything has pretty much already been said. But I would just like to add those jalapeńos chips (on the counter) are damn good...

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