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Thread: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

  1. #181

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Very good work, Scott. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

    Britt

  2. #182
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    cant get the pic. What the verdict?

  3. #183

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    so horrible!
    so all be careful.

  4. #184

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    I'm new to this image hosting business. I'll see if I can't get a smaller version to post here.

    Looking at the image of the burned battery's label, you can see the faintest hint of blue or green. The problem is, with all the other features of the image, you can't make out what the blue-green might be.

    First I used GIMP's color enhance feature a few times, to better see what was going on, in a small area I had selected as active. Then I adjusted the red, yellow, and magenta channels to greyscale and dark. This had the effect of squashing everything non-blue/green to the black end of greyscale. Last I saturated and lightened the blue, cyan, and green channels. The end result is that any pixels that had even the slightest hint of blue or green became very bright, and all pixels without blue or green were made nearly black. Nothing has been added or interpolated. The smearing and big pixels are the result of original image compression and probably the nature of the camera's sensor (color-sensitive elements are spaced relatively few and far between compared to greyscale-sensitive elements -- your eyes are the same way).

    Here's that smaller image:



    And here is a smaller version of the other image. The processing is more or less the same, but I think I also contrast enhanced it by equalizing its histogram, and the whole image was processed to make the comparison between the two batts.


    Scott

    PS: Oh yes, they deserve credit for providing a hosting service so simple that even I can figure out:

    Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting

  5. #185

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    From Ultralife Batteries PDF re Lithium Manganese:

    "LITHIUM-SULFUR DIOPXIDE BATERIES ARE BEING PHASED OUTBecause of a number of incidents resulting in soldier injuries, and the possible venting of toxic and noxious sulfur dioxide gas, the Li/SO2 battery chemistry is losing favor for military applications and is starting to be replaced by Li/MnO2 batteries."

    Does this apply to Surefire? They are presumably the leading supplier of 3v 123 batteries to the military so one would assume thdey are in the vanguard of this transition. Is it possible that the Surefire-initiated lithium price breakthrough was made possible by aiming the Li/SO2 batteries at the civilian and police markets while providing the more lucrative military market with state-of-the-art Li/MnO2 technology?

    Brightnorm

  6. #186
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    [ QUOTE ]
    brightnorm said:
    From Ultralife Batteries PDF re Lithium Manganese:

    "LITHIUM-SULFUR DIOPXIDE BATERIES ARE BEING PHASED OUTBecause of a number of incidents resulting in soldier injuries, and the possible venting of toxic and noxious sulfur dioxide gas, the Li/SO2 battery chemistry is losing favor for military applications and is starting to be replaced by Li/MnO2 batteries."

    Does this apply to Surefire? They are presumably the leading supplier of 3v 123 bateries to the military so one would assume thdey are in the vanguard of this transition. Is it possible that the Surefire-initiated lithium price breakthrough was made possible by aiming the Li/SO2 batteries at the civilian and police markets while providing the more lucrative military market with state-of-the-art Li/MnO2 technology?


    [/ QUOTE ]
    How old is this PDF that you are quoting? Also, do you have any reason to suspect Surefire is doing something like this or is this just pure speculation on your part?

  7. #187

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    I wasn't able to find that link which I originally saw on CPF, but here's another one to Ultralife:

    ULTRALIFE

    The Surefire idea was pure speculation. I have been been very happy with 99%+ of the hundreds of SF 123s I've used over the years and appreciate their pricing breakthrough that has made use of these high-tech lights so much more affordable.

    Still, I'd like to know more about which manufacturers are involved with this advanced Lithium chemistry, and whether the preeminent name in military tactical lighting is working with this promising technology.

    Brightnorm

  8. #188

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    You can go to Energizer and Duracell websites to get information on the chemistry they use. I think it was Newbie who posted soem links about that. It was in spec sheets for the batteries, I think. Check some of the earlier pages on this thread.

    Scott

  9. #189

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Thanks Scott

    BN

  10. #190
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    The fact that SureFire offer an SF34800-Bulk pallet in their product list as a 'standard' item may give some indication of the sheer quantities they have been supplying.

    SureFire supplies many thousands of WeaponLights, not least as part of the US Army’s Rapid Fielding Initiative. SureFire has the infrastructure to supply batteries and Battalion Support Field Maintenance Kits (KMU002's) etc

    That I'm aware of, the SF123As the military use are the same ones we civis use.

  11. #191
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    brightnorm, it sounds like marketing.

    Surefire used Duracell batteries for a long time and Duracell has always been very upfront about the fact that they're lithium maganese dioxide. It's right at the top of their datasheet in huge letters. I doubt SF would take a step backwards by switching to an inferior chemistry.. I do know that there's a lot of suspicion when there's a big price drop, but perhaps the case is one of markup, not really cost cutting. Perhaps all along the big names have marked up the cost of the battery substantially so the only thing SF is eroding are the profit margins. But SF has always stated upfront that they are about making the batteries affordable so that we can run the lights.

    [ QUOTE ]

    The fact that SureFire offer an SF34800-Bulk pallet in their product list as a 'standard' item may give some indication of the sheer quantities they have been supplying.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    GROUP BUY!!!!!!!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif[/img]

  12. #192
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    SureFire SF123A like Duracell DL123A are LiMn02
    (Are there any 123A batteries that aren't?)

    The way Cameron explained it to me was that SureFire placed a rather large order (understatement) and therefore got a rather good deal. The price the customer pays for SF123As is the price of the batteries plus shipping and handling (transportation to SureFire from the battery factory) and if they are boxed or carded the cost of labour and materials for SureFire to do that.
    When you buy SF34800-Bulk pallets they are delivered as they come from the battery factory I believe. That is why when you buy pallets they are slightly cheaper.

    The aim of the SF123A battery is to provide the best quality American battery at cost price to the end user.

    Al

  13. #193

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Considering the advantages of Li/MnO2 chemistry how likely is it that a matched pair (Li/Mn02/same mfr/same date) could explode as described in the first post of this thread?

    Brightnorm

  14. #194

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    I think the only problem is where batteries are mismatched by state of charge, discharge curve (i.e., brand or type), or if one battery has a defect of some sort (could be from damage).

    You can test short circuit current *briefly* and get a good idea if each battery is in good "health" but there will certainly be conditions that are not detectable.

    I would set the probability of having a problem with mismatched batteries at "low:" you are more likely than not to get away with it ONCE. Do it a few times and you are more likely than not to have a problem.

    I would set the probability of having a problem with matched but untested batteries at "extremely low:" maybe it will happen in your lifetime of flashlight use, but probably not.

    I would set the probability of having a problem with matched, tested batteries at "insignificant:" if it has happened, I doubt there is enough data to quantify the risk. Freak accident; God must want to get your attention, or something.

    Scott

  15. #195
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Hello Brightnorm,

    The problem comes from not having a matched State Of Charge. If one cell is almost completely drained and the other is fresh, when you turn the light on they try to equalize. That is what leads to these problems.

    There is much discussion about how to protect the consumer from this problem. Single cell lights obviously do not have this concern, but in multi cell lights there is this possibility. You may start to see pairs of cells in heat shrink appearing in an effort to minimize the potential for this problem. If you have a 3 cell light, there still can be a problem, but there are more 2 cell lights out there and they have to start somewhere.

    The basic safety rules still apply.

    Don't mix brands of cells in a light.
    Don't mix cells of different capacities.
    When you pull cells from a light, throw them away or label them for use in single cell lights only.
    Train others that have access to your lights in these simple rules.

    You can take this one step further by limiting the use of multi cell lights to outside use and storing them away from combustibles. Also, you can remove the cells from you lights after use and check to see if they are hot and if they are cooling down.

    Tom

  16. #196

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Much excellent advice but a little daunting for someone who has a whole herd of lights penned up in drawers and fully loaded.

    Brightnorm

  17. #197
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Obviously, if you have a question about state of charge, check the voltage on the batteries and it should be with a 1/100 or 2/100 of a volt of each other.

  18. #198
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Hello Brightnorm,

    What can I say...

    With great power, comes responsibility... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    Tom

  19. #199

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Excellent! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    BN

  20. #200
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    So, in short, the conclusion are:
    1. DO NOT MIX BATTERIES FROM DIFFERENT PRODUCERS.
    2. Do not use cheap batteries as this may turn out to be very expensive.
    Just my thoughts form reading the whole thread...

  21. #201

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Even when using batteries from the same manufacturer check voltages and dates. "Flash amps" will give you more information than voltage readings.

    Brightnorm

  22. #202
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Another reason to have a working smoke detector in your home.

  23. #203
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    gee i didnt get to put in all my theorization and speculation :-)
    (disclaimer: and that is all this post is, opinion)

    i agree with this LOTS
    Apologies if this has been answered above, but did the batteries in question explode, or was there a gas build-up contained by a gas-tight light until it suffered a catastrophic failure?

    everyone always wants a SEALED up light that will go 400meters underwater.
    if you take the lead off the top of a bullet, it just fizzes :-)
    if you fill up a pipe with all manners of fast burning chemicals, you got fireworks
    you gotta Seal it up good to get it to blow up.

    and it SEEMS to me this is happening with Lithium more than lithium-ion, so quit basterdizing my favorite cell :-)

    and IF it cant VENT, (or disconnect which happens long before venting), then its GOING to build up pressure
    and a lithium-ion needs to have:
    a reletive pressure buildup INSIDE it
    COMPARED to the exterior pressure to releace the anode.

    Put a li-ion in a Very well sealed up pipe bomb, and if it needed to vent , which would DISCONNECT it and STOP bad chemical processes, it is less likely to do so in a air tight chamber.

    the pressure In the flashlight (the batteries exterior) would offset any pressure in the cell, when it came to the pressure switching.

    i splained it before in one of my diatribes, the top metal lifts ,expands, domes up, when the pressure in the cell rises, that disconnects the anode.
    IF
    the pressure around the cell was higher the thing could not move as much, and the anode would not disconnect.

    If this could happen magically to MY Li-ion cells i would be DEAD by now :-)
    i have done every method of torture to hundreds of them.
    BUT
    and this is the key, i couldnt afford a GREAT flashlight, i aint going diving, and california doesnt have problems with water, so ALL of my flashlights have very POOR seals, poor construction, and probably would get wet even if put in a rainstorm.
    and
    i hate primary cells, gotta have a rechargable.

    on the other hand, i just sent out as gifts to the uninitiated all thier flashlights WITH lithium batteries in them.
    but i bought the batteries from a SUEable corporate structre :-) my guess is they are making sure stuff like that is less likely to occur.

    Edited 500 times to try and get more accurate statements.

  24. #204
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Hello VidPro,

    [ QUOTE ]
    VidPro said:

    Apologies if this has been answered above, but did the batteries in question explode, or was there a gas build-up contained by a gas-tight light until it suffered a catastrophic failure?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    The cells "rapidly vented with flame" and blew the end cap off the light in the process. The light impacted the cupboard door hard enough to open it, fracture it and the light ended up on the floor near by.

    Tom

  25. #205
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    Hi silverFox
    well :-)
    i was saying
    if a Lithium has a anode pressure Disconnect (like Li-Ion), it may have been inoperable, due to a higher than normal atmospheric pressure in the light.
    and not nessisarily caused directally by the battery.

    making a safety device inoperable , is not a good thing to do.

    we wouldnt hold down the releace on a pressure cooker
    or put a pressure cooker in a 55gal sealed drum, and expect that the releace will work right.

    do we discontinue pressure cookers, because some person
    defeated the safety device?

    do we sue the guy who invented melting lead for wars :-)

    Indeed the battery violently releaced, but the Cause could have as easily been that the cells protections were unable to operate in the conditions.

    Conditions, that manufactures undoubtedly warned builders about
    in 273 page leagalease trash that nobody reads :-)
    Like Microsoft statements that everyone
    pushes the [I Agree] button, even if they wouldnt agree to 1/2 of that stuff. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

  26. #206
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/str.gif[/img] Very scary stuff !

    So basically, I have about 100 little "pipe bombs" all over my house, another 3 dozen potentially explosive batteries, and another half dozen or so "pipe bombs" in my car (in the trunk of course right next to 20 gallons of gasoline) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mpr.gif[/img]

  27. #207
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    you mean you live more dangerously than 007, and your not ENJOYING it?
    send a few to me [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    you need a danger theme song, and a cool suit.

  28. #208
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hahaha.gif[/img]
    [ QUOTE ]
    VidPro said:
    ....you need a danger theme song, and a cool suit.

    [/ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif[/img]

  29. #209
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II


    eh...

    did someone call me?
    vhyper007

    and all this talk about pipe bombs. BATFE is now probably monitoring CPF closer than some pro Iraqi websites.But mistah, I swears I was jes tryin to blow up that beaver dam on my pond

  30. #210
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    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II

    I have used Lithium batteries since 1986. Never had one explode, burn or otherwise self distruct.

    Had a dive light burst from the gas generated by exhausted Alkaline D cells which I failed to remove. No fire no large explosion, just a ruined dive light.

    Vhyper007: It has been my experiance that the best thing to use to remove beaver dams is cordite. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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