Olympia Products
Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 263

Thread: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

  1. #91

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    [ QUOTE ]
    makar said:
    was there ever a problem with a 1 x cr123 light? it seems that this explosions only happen to >2 x cr123 cell flashlights.
    is it possible that these explosions come from a combination of one relatively empty and one full cell.
    @RY3:_is it possible you used a configuration like this?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Excellent questions. I've been wondering about this myself. And if it is true that such incidents may be caused by one cell that's relatively empty and one that is still full or almost full, what can one do to prevent such incidents from happening?

    After all, there are occasionally bad CR123s. I had a couple last year in a batch I bought for a camera, they must have had less than half the usual capacity. So even if you're careful not to mix cells you can't protect yourself from this sort of thing.

    Hans

  2. #92
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Oregon- United States of America
    Posts
    4,946

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Interesting point, all the 123 lights I've seen pictures of or reported explosions have always been with two cells, which would mean that one of the cells very well could be ran down below a safe point, since 123 cells are not identical (even within the same SureFire box), and one would naturally be depleted before the other.



    [ QUOTE ]
    BC0311 said:
    Newbie, too messed up and blackened for which one? I'm getting confused. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
    Britt

    [/ QUOTE ]


    This one:


  3. #93
    Flashaholic* Stanley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    PJ, MALAYSIA
    Posts
    1,533

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    My theory above is that the explosion could've started somewhere else, i.e. the Pelican or even just a loose cell shorting, etc.. Its just the after effect where a burning cell or similar could've landed on or near the tailend of the 2L which caused the hole on it, and so on and so forth... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

  4. #94
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,959

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    So? We need to store our lights with the tail cap unscrewed? Drill some vent holes? Use a multimeter to match the cells after use? Reserve unequal cells for led lights only?

  5. #95
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Oregon- United States of America
    Posts
    4,946

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Stanley said:
    My theory above is that the explosion could've started somewhere else, i.e. the Pelican or even just a loose cell shorting, etc.. Its just the after effect where a burning cell or similar could've landed on or near the tailend of the 2L which caused the hole on it, and so on and so forth... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not sure.

    She was using the Pelican M6 with what appears Surefire 123 cells (and the wrappper piece from the blown which also has a red tint looking through the white inside of the SureFire cell wrapper, the Pelican M6 black sooty inside and black on many of the tailcap components, dents in the tailcap rim, thrashed Pelican M6 threads, and the part of the Pelican M6 and the tail in pieces and physically blown apart, along with the body/head end sitting on the floor.

    The TL2 only looks like it was broken by something hitting it, notice the white stress marks in the TL2 body plastic.


    It is also good to note there is a good documented history of the Surefire 123 cells venting/leaking harmlessly in the standard packaging SureFire provides for the cells.

    Again, note how the distinct SureFire 123 with it's wrapper clearly exploded, unrolling the seal on the top.

    Lets look at the SureFire 123 cell and the mystery cell...






    RY3,

    Can you make out any markings on the side of the other cell (not the one with the SureFire label still on it) that is missing it's wrapper (which the wrapper piece looks like a SureFire wrapper looking from the inside)? I'm talking about the ink date stamp on the side of the cell, as shown below:




  6. #96

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Those new "Titanium" brand 123's from Countycomm also have a red wrapper and 2 vent holes at the top. I have a small box of these. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/str.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/aaa.gif[/img]

  7. #97
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    648

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Stanley said:
    The tail end of the 2L looks burnt/melted with a hole on it. Could the fire have started from outside, i.e. one of the burning cells landed on the tail end of the 2L and the heat melted the tail and subsequently pressure built up on the tail end caused the whole light to pop thru the front? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Looking again at my UKE2L, there are some disturbing features on this light.

    *Firstly, the negative contact wire and rear spring are one piece of wire-like spring steel. This strip/spring is hooked into a recess in the front of the light. The rear of the contact wire is the bottom spring which sits in the base. The strip is very clearly bowed outward in the center of the light and would be in contact or near-contact with any batteries in the center section.

    *This light turns on/off by a twist bezel. This means that the battery stack probably rotates to some degree when operating the on/off. This would allow the bowed-out (-)contact strip to rub against the CR123 wrapping. Remember that the negative body of the top 123 = the positive contact of the bottom 123. If the top 123 wrapping is breached, a total shorting of the bottom 123 occurs with lots and lots of heat and fireworks.

    *Also, this light with xenon module is carrying at least 1 amp through the (-)contact wire. This could heat up the wire and possibly melt through the wrapping of the 123?

    *Another problem that I oberved with this light involves the switching contact at the front of the light. It appears possible that an erroneous contact could be made between the brass light module and the top of the (-)contact wire. This is because the light modules(xenon or led) have a long brass section that overlaps the (-)front contact by more than 3/8"- even when the light is turned off. The contact wire sits in the bottom of a 1/16" channel pretty well but is still unshielded and awfully close to the battery surface.

    I've got one of these UKE2Ls and really like it. These explosions are just making me a bit paranoid. But it does appear that the basic design of the light is in question.
    Stu

  8. #98

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Hi. Thanks for all the comments and suggestion. I didn't even think of corrosive when we did the cleaning. Opps.

    I learn later from my wife's confession [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] that before she use the PM6, she did turned on the UK2L but it was very dim.
    So I was incorrect when I originally thought it has no batteries in the UK2L.

    In other words, there were 4 batteries involved here. A Surefire, a Duracell, a DP and one unknown.
    So at least one of the flashlight had mixed brand of batteries.

    I am not sure about the theory that the UK-2L started the accident.
    The battery compartment of UK2L was clean. There wasn't any residues that I can see.
    The picture that I posted looks like there was burn mark and a hole at the tail but there wasn't. It was just the camera angle.
    On the other hand, the inside of the PM6 was full of black residues.

    Also, the inside of the Surefire was relatively clean when compare to the unknown one. I believe the unknown cell was the cause.

    I look under my microscope but still can not identify it. It "seem" to have some blue tint but I also seeing some red.

    http://img9.exs.cx/img9/6130/p1020270c9km.jpg

    http://img179.exs.cx/img179/2880/p1020276c3hw.jpg

    The other side..
    http://img179.exs.cx/img179/9822/p1020277c8fa.jpg

    Images replaced with links due to size. Please do not post pics wider than 800 pixels.

    B@rt

  9. #99
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Bay Area
    Posts
    180

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Have you contacted pelican to see if they are going to replace your light, and maybe compensate other damages?

    Pelican claims that their lights will not explode because of the safety valve they have on their lights. Clearly, this has failed.

  10. #100
    Flashaholic* deranged_coder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA, USA
    Posts
    860

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    @Dandrop: Are you sure that claim applies to all their lights? I thought only the ones with the "Ex inside the hexagon" mark were the ones that are claimed to be protected against explosions?

    http://www.pelican.com/lights_aprovals.html

  11. #101
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Bay Area
    Posts
    180

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Well, according to a Website: (i'm not sure if this is an official website)
    Pelican Page Safety Features

    "An additional safety related attribute of Pelican flashlights is the built in patented hydrogen purge valve that allows explosive gases to harmlessly leave the battery compartments. <font color="red">In addition to this patented safety feature, pellets have been encapsulated into every Pelican flashlight</font>. These tiny catalyst pellets combine outgasing hydrogen discharging from batteries with ambient air trapped inside all flashlights, changing the mixture to harmless water droplets. This serves as an additional “backup” fail-safe not found in other lights. Battery powered flashlights are potentially dangerous due to the hydrogen gas given off by over heated battery cells exploding as the unit is turned on.

    This has resulted in occasions where the flashlight can explode, causing bodily harm. To combat this potentially dangerous situation, Pelican flashlights now incorporate a special one-way valve that allows small amounts of hydrogen gas to harmlessly escape, yet prevents the ingress of ambient explosive gases..."

    I am not a pelican expert, but it says so right there...

  12. #102
    Flashaholic* deranged_coder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA, USA
    Posts
    860

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Ummm... I don't think that is Pelican's official home page. AFAIK (I could be wrong) their official home page is at http://www.pelican.com/

    EDIT: I did some more digging and found that the M6 is still listed as pending as far as approvals.

    http://www.pelican.com/small_lights/...m6_lithium.htm

  13. #103
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Bay Area
    Posts
    180

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    DC:
    Lol, i do not know if it is the official homepage. Let me edit my post to reflect that.

    However, if you go to pelican.com and look for the M6, it does have the 'you break it, we replace it' guarantee!

  14. #104
    Administrator Size15's's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Kettering, England
    Posts
    18,408

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    The PM6 does not have that I'm aware of the obvious safety valve that my Super Sabrelite and StealthLites have.
    The UK-2L does not have a safety valve either (I've lent mine out but I'm pretty sure it doesn't).

    Al

  15. #105

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    I still have this UKE-2L that exploded , along with all the parts and the two batteries in a little tupperware container.

    I'd be happy to mail it to someone in the USA that would like to do a post mortem. Free, including postage.

    Just say you want it here and then PM your shipping info to me, I'll get it in the mail Monday morning. The first to do both of those things will get it.

    Britt

  16. #106
    Flashaholic* deranged_coder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA, USA
    Posts
    860

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    True, Pelican does have the "You break it, we replace it... forever." tagline. Would be interesting to find out just how far they will hold true to that.

    FWIW, I own a Pelican M6 (Xenon) and it does not have any safety valve that I am aware of.

  17. #107
    Flashaholic* jtivat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Grand Rapids
    Posts
    2,372

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    The UKL2 has a hole under the first O-ring (the one near the body) to vent.

  18. #108
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Oregon- United States of America
    Posts
    4,946

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    [ QUOTE ]
    RY3 said:
    Hi. Thanks for all the comments and suggestion. I didn't even think of corrosive when we did the cleaning. Opps.

    I learn later from my wife's confession [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] that before she use the PM6, she did turned on the UK2L but it was very dim.
    So I was incorrect when I originally thought it has no batteries in the UK2L.

    In other words, there were 4 batteries involved here. A Surefire, a Duracell, a DP and one unknown.
    So at least one of the flashlight had mixed brand of batteries.

    I am not sure about the theory that the UK-2L started the accident.
    The battery compartment of UK2L was clean. There wasn't any residues that I can see.
    The picture that I posted looks like there was burn mark and a hole at the tail but there wasn't. It was just the camera angle.
    On the other hand, the inside of the PM6 was full of black residues.

    Also, the inside of the Surefire was relatively clean when compare to the unknown one. I believe the unknown cell was the cause.

    I look under my microscope but still can not identify it. It "seem" to have some blue tint but I also seeing some red.

    http://img9.exs.cx/img9/6130/p1020270c9km.jpg

    http://img179.exs.cx/img179/2880/p1020276c3hw.jpg

    The other side..
    http://img179.exs.cx/img179/9822/p1020277c8fa.jpg

    Images replaced with links due to size. Please do not post pics wider than 800 pixels.

    B@rt

    [/ QUOTE ]


    The two top battery contacts, can you get us photos of those, and or count the vent holes?

    On the base of SureFire and Engergizer cells, dead center, you will see a small circular dimple. Could you look for that?

  19. #109
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Flushing, NY
    Posts
    2,047

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    [ QUOTE ]
    NewBie said:



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Newbie, if Im not mistaken, every CR123 battery in existence has those two vent holes.

  20. #110
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Flushing, NY
    Posts
    2,047

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    I currently have both a titanium battery and a SF 123 battery in front of me. When I look at the wrappings in the pictures, I can see that the wrapping is a darker color of red, unlike the Titanium battery which is a more lighter hue of red. Also, the titanium battery has a different design under the + contact button. I wish I can post pictures, but I cant find any of my cameras or the USB connectors. Others who own these will probably understand. On SF cells, you can see that there is black plastic surrounding the vent hole. The surrounding plastic is a complete circle with no hole in it. On a titanium cell however, that plastic circle is really a sort of + shaped design with the + contact button in the middle of it. This picture I made in paint should fit the description.
    http://img133.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img1...ntitled7ph.png
    When I looked in the given pictures, the top of the battery looked a lot like an SF battery. But I may be mistaken. The battery might have been a Titanium battery, and the black surrounding plastic might have fused together into one piece from the heat of the explosion. Then again... I wont make any assumptions since I am not sure of anything.

  21. #111
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Oregon- United States of America
    Posts
    4,946

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Mags_despiser said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    NewBie said:



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Newbie, if Im not mistaken, every CR123 battery in existence has those two vent holes.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    You are mistaken:




    Furthermore, amongst the two vent hole cells, the placement of where those two holes are on the side of the "nipple" (up towards the top as in the SureFire/Energizer cells, vs. lower with other cells) further helps identify who's cell it is. There are also differences in crimping, the bottom plastic ring, the top plastic disk, and plenty of other things.

  22. #112

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Thanks for fixing the pictures Bart. Sorry about that.

    When I first posting this thread, my intention was just to share my experience, not to blame or pointing finger to anyone or anything. As someone mentioned, what's life without some sort of dangerous and excitement although I am not sure if my wife will agree. Now like some of you, I am interested to find out what is the brand of the unknown cell.

    Anyway, here are the pictures. The one on the left has two parts. I include the botton part that "I think" belong to the one on the right. Also, I can't see any marking on the bottom of the cells.











  23. #113

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    What about other lithiums, like AA and AAAs?

    Hydrogen venting only occurs after useage right? So keeping cells in a pelican case (like batterystation's package deal) is ok?

  24. #114
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Hutto,TX
    Posts
    1,152

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    I think I'll have a look at how I've got my cells stored. I think CSI will need to check this one out. I've got these and other batteries stashed all over the place!

    chiphead

  25. #115

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    [ QUOTE ]
    SilverFox said:
    The vent is supposed to relieve the pressure build up in a controlled way.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    A vent on a battery isn't going to do a blind bit of good if the battery is inside a sealed container such as a flashlight body. The flashlight tube will turn into a pipe bomb when it can no longer contain the gas pressure.

    Store lithium-powered lights with the tailcaps off.

  26. #116
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    120

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    Lithium batteries discharge sulfur-dioxide gas. There is a slow industry trend toward a safer lithium-manganese composition. Many lithium batteries for modern military application are of lithium-manganese composition. Example;
    http://www.ulbi.com/ and http://www.ulbi.com/market-display.asp?ID=7

  27. #117

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    This is dangerous, man!! Good thing you weren't EDCing it when this happened,RY3. I happen to have a 12 pack SFcr123s in my dehumidifying box now, and it worries me. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] Will the cells blow only when they are in a light? I am also interested in what response SF gave you on the batts, i mean, this isn't just you average problem, someone could probably even sue them for this. Anyways, just glad that no one got hurt.

  28. #118
    Flashaholic* Ray_of_Light's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    West Midlands, U.K.
    Posts
    1,144

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    WATER DIFFUSION IN LITHIUM-MANGANESE CELLS

    This episode has been so scary to me that I have found compelling to explain it thoughtfully. I rely so heavily on my primary 123s that any safety based on excess of precaution would have brought me one era back…

    Let me state first that the violence of the explosion requires more energy than the energy chemically stored in the battery.

    Also, there is to explain why the overpressure and the PTC protections of the 123 battery haven't kicked in.

    The only viable scenario, and a reproducible one, is a defective cell. Let me explain in what manner it was defective.

    As you all know, the 123s are based on a non-water chemistry. They use an organic solvent, with a volatile compound (sulphur based) as electrolyte. This is because the electro-negativity of the lithium, used at the negative electrode is so high that it spontaneously decomposes the water into hydrogen and oxygen.

    Assume that a 123 cell with a defective crimp was produced, and stored. The highly volatile electrolyte vanishes first, and this raises the internal resistance of the cell - so it has a flash-amp reading is 1 – 2 Amps instead of the usual 7+ Amps.
    Subsequently the ambient water, normally contained in the air, is adsorbed through the defective crimp seal, by the manganese dioxide, and rests there. The manganese dioxide has an affinity with water.

    So far, the cell is in a meta-stable state, just as a sleeping pipe-bomb.

    Let’s now assume the above cell is placed in a two cells light, totally sealed, in series with a good 123 cell.
    The light is activated. It produces some light, since the defective cell will initially pump some current, for the first five minutes (tested), while heating up quickly due to the increased internal resistance.
    After the first five minutes, the cell is being reverse charged from the good cell, and the stray water contained in the manganese dioxide reaches the hot lithium metal. It decomposes in hydrogen and oxygen very fast, while the lithium heats up some more.
    This chemical reaction produces an explosive gas mixture that self-ignites soon after, shooting away the tail cap of the flashlight like a projectile.

    The PTC (Positive Temperature Coefficient) protection, and the membrane piercing overpressure relief have no mean, or reason, to intervene in this process.

    Based on my previous experience, I had a similar occurrence of defective crimped 123 cells with some DP brand cells, sold by a manufacturer no longer in business. Knowing the danger of water diffusion in lithium cells, I throw them away promptly. I strongly doubt that a SF or DL cell was the initiator of this small disaster.

    As morale, if you are scared from this story, the only precaution I advice is to flash-amp your cells. Cells with defective crimps, that can present the risk of water diffusion, show a short-circuit current, otherwise called flash-amp, of 1- 2 Amp.
    Another valid suggestion is to buy only cells built from a ISO certified factory!

    Hope this helps

    Anthony

  29. #119

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    [ QUOTE ]
    show a short-circuit current, otherwise called flash-amp, of 1- 2 Amp.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/huh2.gif[/img]

    How does this present itself on a DMM?

  30. #120
    Flashaholic* Ray_of_Light's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    West Midlands, U.K.
    Posts
    1,144

    Default Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.

    To measure flash-amps, set your DMM on 20 Amp scale, and measure the current flowing through the 123 cell.
    Remember to keep the reading shorter than one or two seconds.

    Anthony

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •