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Thread: New 3W U-bins

  1. #1
    *Flashaholic* easilyled's Avatar
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    Default New 3W U-bins

    Now that so many 3W U-bins seem to have become available,
    I am wondering whether they will be used as the "catch-of-the-day" in Aleph-systems using 3W Luxeons.

    If they are, it would be very interesting to know how the run-time and throw are affected in the various combinations of LE's, no. batteries used and type of current regulator used.

    I would imagine that a UWOJ, for example, in an Aleph-3 LE would produce a big increase in throw at the expense of run-time for any given configuration of battery and regulator set-up.

    Can anyone provide any further information on whether the U-bins will be used in the future and any figures on throw and run-time, if so?

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* LitFuse's Avatar
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    I've not yet seen any "premium" bin "U"s (widely) available, only the "X1"s. I don't consider the "X1s" anything special as far as tint. I'm sure this will be changing, hopefully soon.

    I don't think the "U" bins are a big revolution though, more of an "evolution". They are going to be a bit brighter than the "T" bins that we see now.

    You shouldn't see any runtime penalty for a "UWOJ" over a "TWOJ", just higher brightness.

    Peter

  3. #3
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    I'm hoping for higher brightness out of the J bin, U flux. If there is any correlation and the H bins are any indication, we may need to go to the K bin U flux luxeons to see the stellar U bin performers.

    I'm only saying this because all of the H Vf Lux IIIs that I've seen have fallen at the bottom of the brightness range for T flux Lux IIIs. Of course, this may not be representative of H Vf Lux IIIs in general. It's only what I've seen.

  4. #4

    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    "catch of the day" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif[/img]

    Well I will be leaving the Maui paradise and back in my garage in a couple days so I suppose it's time to think about these things. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

    I was fortunate to get some reels of good flux and tint T-bins just prior to taking off. I still consider the T bin as premium LED's and the U bin as exotic and rare. If anyone wants to trade me the T bin LED's for some U bin, perhaps my tune would change. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I have secured a few of the U bin LED's at a premium price and will likely do some custom builds and small run offerings using them and offering them at a premium price.

    For those who want "muscle" or peak performing lights, the premium may be desireable and acceptable. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif[/img] For those wanting good utility lights driven at conservative levels and not being tasked for maximum output or reach, I doubt a premium in price will ultimately make sense.

    I am sure that many would disagree with me but I am now in possession of some flashlights that do all I expect of them without breaking a "sweat" or being driven close to their limit. In other words, for my EDC, a T bin is more than adequate now and a U bin is either overkill or to be used for enhanced efficiency and longer run times; cool to be sure, but not critical.

    I admit to knowing what the top end of my GMC van is but I only visited it a couple times and it is certainly not something to "brag" about. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] If I had been offered a different model with a higher top end at a premium price, I would need more than just the "potential" to justify even considering a higher price.

    In the Aleph system, I would expect an Aleph 3 driven at max current for max throw might justify a U bin consideration whereas an Aleph 2 with a NexGen 400 driver would likely not. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif[/img]

    I know I have plenty of good tried and true T bin LED's to work with as well as a few U bin to play with. I guess supply and demand as well as time will tell what I end up doing with these?!?!?! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    Given my current supply of T bin on hand and what I consider to be still scarce and spendy U bin LED's, I see the U's as exceptions and not the "rule" or catch of the day, presently.

  5. #5
    *Flashaholic* easilyled's Avatar
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    Thanks for your answers.

    I would be prepared to pay more for a premium U-bin such as a UWOJ if it made a spectacular difference in an Aleph-3 set-up with a Pila 168A for instance.

    Any chance of persuading someone to do a custom build of that set-up and info on pricing?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    I've posted more Ubin info answering question in a VIP w/Ubin sales thread. to prevent duplication. Ubin info

  7. #7
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    Just remember that a given "U bin" could only be a tiny bit brighter - or even no brighter - than any given "T bin". With a T bin that is at the high end of its flux bin, and a U bin a the low end of its flux bin, one might be hard pressed to see any difference at all without a luxmeter. How much would you pay for that?

    On the other hand, you might quickly see a remarkable difference between a low performing T bin and a high performing U bin.

    These bins are just guides, and many CPFers have even shown that LEDs are not infrequently mis-binned in one direction or another.

    Your best bet, if you are looking for the brightest possible, is to find someone who will sell you a light that is luxmeter documented to outperform other similar lights. I'll admit it might be very hard to find someone who will do that for you, and if you do it will probably cost you a premium. Just something to think about!

  8. #8
    *Flashaholic* IsaacHayes's Avatar
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    I think of U bins as just the minumum flux. So you are garunteed (in theory) at least what they are. If you get more, great! So if you want max T bin brightness, go for a U bin. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

  9. #9
    *Flashaholic* easilyled's Avatar
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    Thanks for the further input.

    wasBlinded, I appreciate what you're saying
    ie. that there is no absoloute guarantee that a higher bin code will necessarily be much brighter, but I'm going on the law of averages.

    An average U-bin ought to be significantly brighter than an average T-bin given if they have been tested by the modder to make sure that the respective batches look OK.

    If this were not the case, no one would bother paying more for a higher star/emitter and no-one would have been so eager to acquire the X-bin 5Ws when they were available.

    Yes, the bin-codes are only a rough guide, but it is better to have that than no guide at all IMO.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    Without an integrating sphere, which includes almost all cpf'ers with a few exceptions like PK & Soundbox.

    to have a hope of a valid comparison. one needs to have two identical quality lights with only difference being Ubin VS Tbin. preferably with the same color bin code.

    I've had the good fortune to have two lionhearts and two VIPs. side by side comparing beams. color bins were not exactly the same, but hey it's pretty close.

    Ubin VS Tbin driven in identical lights except for luxeons. Ubin plainly was putting out way more lumens in both instances.

    please note while Ubins are poping up. actual number of Ubin with low vf actually available are very low numbers. less than 20 UX1J's & 15 UX1K's have been actually offered for sale.

  11. #11

    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    Hey, lot's of us really like the warmer tint of the x1 bins.

  12. #12

    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    I must agree with McGizmo here (my apologies Don, for invading your Forum!), and will add that Even If the U-bins were as consistent as we'd all like them be, there still looms the problems of getting several hundred at a time - not to mention matched adequately enough given the ol' LL issue - to populate the larger projects.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    xochi, X1 is green, not yellow/warm.

    LumiLEDs binning is by no means exact - as others have mentioned, a high end T Bin can be equivalent to a low end U Bin. Given that the U Bin is just coming out, it's not unlikely that they're on the low end of the bin for the moment, until they start coming out in higher numbers. I haven't had a chance to test the brightnesses myself yet, though - I will in about a week or two, though.

    Right now with a U Bin, you're at least guaranteed the upper end of a T Bin and possibly more. If you go in with that expectation, you probably won't be disappointed. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

  14. #14
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    I wouldn't say that the X1s are green. I've used about 100 of them and have found them to be yellowish when driven to spec. When severly underdriven, they range from slightly green to yellowish.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    Perceptions of these tints are highly colored (ahem..) by what you compare to. And to an extent by individual samples within a bin. And also possibly by an individual's color perception (there are lots of people with red/green color deficiency out there - you would be amazed).

    The only two X1 bins I've been exposed to look slightly green to me, not yellowish at all. But then I also have a V1 bin to look at, which definitely has some yellow to it. Then I have a couple V0 bins, which don't look at all yellowish, unless I turn on an XO right beside them.[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

    Bottom line is we all may be looking at the same thing and calling it different things. YMMV [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/duh2.gif[/img]

  16. #16
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    I have to take back what I said above. Now that I remember, I did get a batch of ten or twenty that were on the green side.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    so far most of the UX1J's have been pretty white when driven to spec's and above.

    it's amazing what you eyes do, when comparing two led's. an led that you though was pretty white, suddenly turns greenish.

    please note this is what my eyes see, yours may see it differently.

  18. #18
    *Flashaholic* this_is_nascar's Avatar
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    I'll be able to comment in a few days. My UX1J VIP is on its way. Obviously, it will be a sampling of one, but we'll see how it performs.

  19. #19
    Flashaholic* Klaus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    [ QUOTE ]
    cy said:
    to have a hope of a valid comparison. one needs to have two identical quality lights with only difference being Ubin VS Tbin. preferably with the same color bin code.

    I've had the good fortune to have two lionhearts and two VIPs. side by side comparing beams. color bins were not exactly the same, but hey it's pretty close.

    Ubin VS Tbin driven in identical lights except for luxeons. Ubin plainly was putting out way more lumens in both instances.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Cy,

    I want to caution you that at least in the case of the LH the actual Vf will also play a major role - a LED with lower Vf will draw more current and be brighter than a higher Vf LED - you might need to check the current draw and supply that data together with any flux measurements.

    Just my 2€cents

    Klaus

  20. #20

    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    My Cpf Orb is supposed to be equipped with a UYOJ. Its not the same color bin as the current discussion but certainly a U-bin. In a nice dark closet and various white surfaces (glossy/matte paint and a sheet of printer paper) with a set of fresh Surefires at 6.0 volts the hot spot is as white as the paper but on one side of the hot spot there is a crescent of blueish tinge. With a set of battery station 123's at 4.2 volts (cells that came with light) The color rendition is much the same with less intensity in both the hot spot and the blue crescent. The emmitter is not perfectly centered and the blue seems to come from the side that is closer to the reflector. I compared the color to various known color temperature horticultural lamps i have around the house (phosphour and HID). The orb appears whiter than its closest flourescent competitor which is a 5600K with a an almost flat curve from ir all the way to uv. I would likely guesstimate the orbs average color temp around 6000-6500 kelvin. I think its bluer color give it a "whiter" appearance. As far as overall light output, well its the brightest flashlight i have in the house by a long shot and the only luxeon i have to compare with. Hope this adds fuel to the fire.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    [ QUOTE ]
    Klaus said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    cy said:
    to have a hope of a valid comparison. one needs to have two identical quality lights with only difference being Ubin VS Tbin. preferably with the same color bin code.

    I've had the good fortune to have two lionhearts and two VIPs. side by side comparing beams. color bins were not exactly the same, but hey it's pretty close.

    Ubin VS Tbin driven in identical lights except for luxeons. Ubin plainly was putting out way more lumens in both instances.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Cy,

    I want to caution you that at least in the case of the LH the actual Vf will also play a major role - a LED with lower Vf will draw more current and be brighter than a higher Vf LED - you might need to check the current draw and supply that data together with any flux measurements.

    Just my 2€cents

    Klaus

    [/ QUOTE ]

    absolutely correct! both VIP and Lionheart came with choice TWOJ. UX1J was installed making close comparison possible.

    would not be fair to compare to say UX1L or UX1K

  22. #22

    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    I got a UY0J from Chris (Orb) and have it driven at 40/950 mA in a proto with a 45 mm reflector:



    Lux readings are rather impressive (8000+ on high - 1 meter) but possibly more important for considerations of throw might be the lesser degree of divergence of the beam when compared to the shorter reflectors (27mm & 38 mm) based on the same parabolic curve. In terms of illumination, it is likely more significant what you do with the light generated as compared to the amount generated. On low with this light for instance, if I recall correctly the lux was somewhere around 700 at 1 meter. However, at a distance, the beam from the 45 mm reflector had better return or illumination than other lights having a greater lux reading at 1 meter.

    Relative size of beam to target, typical distance to target, levels of ambient and depths of shadow; these are all real world considerations and flux of the LED is just one consideration in many. Certainly having more at your disposal is better than less, in many cases, but.....

    I stayed in a real nice (friends)townhouse on Maui, located on a golf course, this year and there were two adjacent homes; one with a golf cart in the drive and another with his and hers Hummers. If the job at hand were a round of golf......... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif[/img]

  23. #23
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    In direct drive, like with the Lionheart, you can't just drop in an LED from the same Vf bin and assume you will be getting the same drive current. The difference in Vf between the top of the J bin and the bottom means that at 3.7 volts you could see something on the order of a 50% difference in resulting current between the two Luxs.

    Drive them at constant currents and then talk about differences in flux between a T bin and a U bin.

    Something that would be really interesting to me would be the differnces in luminous flux between a good U bin a good T bin at a range of drive currents. Does the relative advantage of a higher binned LED vanish at lower drive currents? I sure hope not.

  24. #24
    Flashaholic* Klaus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    [ QUOTE ]
    cy said:
    absolutely correct! both VIP and Lionheart came with choice TWOJ. UX1J was installed making close comparison possible.
    would not be fair to compare to say UX1L or UX1K

    [/ QUOTE ]

    CY,

    wasblinded expressed exactly what I was trying to say, just having the same Vf bin does not necessarily mean the two compared LEDs will have the same current going through them - this is why I was asking you to add the measured currents to your LH T vs U comparisons.

    Klaus

  25. #25
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    sorry but one Lionheart Ubin and one VIP Ubin has been sold. so I can't go back and measure exact vf.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    My impression so far:

    I can't tell with my eyes that a U is brighter than a T, but I can measure that it is brighter. So far, this is a sampling of one.

    And I'd temper what many have said here. Getting a U bin does NOT guarantee it will be the upper end of the T brightness. That's how it *should* be but we've found so many errors relative to the easy-to-measure "guaranteed" Vf of these Lux's that I'll always be skeptical to use the word "guaranteed."

  27. #27
    Flashaholic pianoman's Avatar
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    So if one were not to have to wait for a 45mm reflector and would settle for an "old" aleph 3 38 mm reflector, but with a U bin 3W Lux, what LE would one use, if it were to be used for one and two cell options?

  28. #28
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    Good discussion. Learned a lot reading this one tread tonight [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanks.gif[/img]

    Will

  29. #29
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    [ QUOTE ]
    pianoman said:
    So if one were not to have to wait for a 45mm reflector and would settle for an "old" aleph 3 38 mm reflector, but with a U bin 3W Lux, what LE would one use, if it were to be used for one and two cell options?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    There's no new news for a U bin. Same as the T bin. Lux3 is lux3. If you NEED it to be compatible with single and double cells, the Wiz2 is your only real choice.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: New 3W U-bins

    Thanks for your thoughts Darell

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