Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Output?

Codeman

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My A2/Red Surefire is doing something that seems rather strange to me.

A few days ago, it began showing 2 distinctly different output levels from the incandescent bulb. I thought regulation would prevent this from happening, but it appears that there is a voltage range where the regulation is failing.

A2 LED only (exposure was 1/4 s, F/3.5):
47120050418-5200-0279-A2LED.png


A2 on Incandescent, but low output (exposure was 1/14.2 s, F/3.5):
47120050418-5200-0280-A2IncandescentLow.png


A2 on Incandescent, normal output (exposure was 1/64 s, F/3.2):
47120050418-5200-0286-A2IncandescentHigh.png


A few things to note:

<ul type="square">[*]all three pictures were taken with both the original bulb and original SF123's
[*]exposure was NOT locked for the 3 shots, so overall brightness between the 3 can't be compared
[*]no post-processing has been done, except for resizing and converting to PNG format
[*]the amount of red light in the 2nd picture clearly shows that the incandescent is not at its normal level
[*]the beam for the third shot was quite a bit brighter, but the camera compensated with a much faster shutter speed, so the difference isn't captured in the pictures
[*]the output of the LED's in the 3rd picture was not visible to my eyes, though a slight bit of red can be seen in the picture
[*]the 2-level incandescent output started around 2.90V/cell[*]the normal incandescent output level was reached once the light was on for a few seconds, but for a while, I could turn the light off, then back on and the low level would return, then jump back up to normal output
[*]now that both batteries have dropped to 2.85V, only the low level of incandescent output occurs - the normal level is no longer available
[*]with new batteries, the normal incandescent always occurs[/list]
I didn't post a 4th shot showing incandescent output with new SF123's, because it's indistinguishable from the third picture above.

As you can see in the second picture, the incandescent output is roughly the same as the LED, which is extremely low for the incandescent. But, since new batteries return the incandescent output to normal (3rd picture), the only explanation I can come up with is that for a small voltage range, about 2.9-2.85V/cell, regulation fails intermittently.

Have any other A2 owners seen this? If not, does this seem to indicate a possible problem with my particular A2's regulation circuitry? Or an I just blessed with a quirky A2? Or, is this normal?

Of more interest, however, is whether anyone can explain this bizarre quasi-regulation. My U2, once regulation at a particular level is lost, it never goes back up. Well, it might if I turned it off, then back on, but never has it jumped back up while the light was on. That is what my A2 was doing.
 

deranged_coder

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Re: Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Outp

It sounds like the amount of juice left in the batteries is not enough to keep running the incan in regulation so it is dropping down to direct drive of the incan and LEDs.

It is tough to compare regulation with the A2 vs. regulation with an LED flashlight since they use different types of regulation (IIRC with an incan it would be constant voltage while with an LED it would be constant current).
 

JohnJ80

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Re: Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Outp

You need to replace the batteries. This is what happens when the batteries get close to the edge and the regulation starts to fail. First time this happened, I thought the switch was bad. Stupid me, I even called Surefire tech support. They told me to change the batteries. I balked but they insisted. They were right.

J
 

Codeman

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Re: Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Outp

deranged_coder,

I thought it was designed to not drop to direct drive. I am, however, still baffled as to why it could start out at the direct drive level, then, a few seconds later, jump back into regulation. I'd like to understand what is happening to allow that to occur.

Oh...wait...I have seen slight voltage increases as a battery is nearing depletion. Maybe that explain it.
 

Luna

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Re: Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Outp

Your just seeing the result of the primary cells recovering after a period of 'rest'.

If they cannot produce the required power, it will jump out of boost mode to direct drive. After the lesser drain, the cells will recover enough to provide the circuits requirements and output will appear more normal.
 

Size15's

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Re: Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Outp

I agree with people's comments regarding the reasons for this happening.

It's normal.

Nice beam shots btw.
 

Codeman

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Re: Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Outp

I appreciate everyone's comments.

Just so that I'm clear...

I turned it on and it started in direct drive (low), not regulation. Then, while the light was still on, it would then jump into regulation after a few seconds of running in direct drive. And would stay in regulation for several minutes.

Everyone's saying this is normal?

I understand dropping out of regulation, and I understand about returning to regulation after a rest, assuming by rest you mean turning it off completely.

If, by rest, you mean running at direct drive instead of in regulation, I'm still confused. I would think that being turned off is more at "rest" than running in direct mode. So, I would expect it to turn on in regulation. It's not doing that. It's as if the cells needed to warm up a bit.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious...
 

Luna

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Re: Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Outp

Let me start with, I haven't reviewed the a2 circuit so...

When in regulation, the current demands on the cells are highest. When DD, the current demands are dropped considerably to the point that the cell is apparently able to still recover as if turned off. Sounds as if a greater hysteresis should have been incorported into the regulator


-craig
 

W4DIZ

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Re: Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Outp

I have seen this with my A2.I also thought it was a bad or dirty switch.I changed the batts.and it was back to normal.I have the new style A2.
 

Codeman

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Re: Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Outp

Thanks, Everyone, especially Craig! I appreciate your time in helping me to understand this!

[ QUOTE ]
Size15's said:
I agree with people's comments regarding the reasons for this happening.

It's normal.

Nice beam shots btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Can't ask for a better endorsement of folks comments than that! I do wish I had my good camera back from the shop. Getting good shots is much easier when you aren't dealing with the limitations of a P&S camera.
 

Size15's

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Re: Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Outp

I've put in excess of 45 sets of SF123A batteries through an A2. When the batteries are about to give up the output drops right down to the the 'dim' level which continues for several minutes before the incandescent stops altogether.

However, when used "momentarily" the A2 can often maintain short bursts in regulation for a bit longer than with constant-on use. It is important to keep the contact surfaces clean to minimise unnecessary resistance.

I have found that batteries about to die often cause a variety of 'strange' output effects when regulation electronics is involved. I assume this is because the ability of batteries to provide current and/or voltage depending on the resistance of the circuit changes all the time when there isn't much juice left in the batteries. The dynamics of the feedback loops generated are more pronounced; more obvious in the beam.

What it comes down to is that this shows it is time to change the batteries!

Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

Codeman

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Re: Surefire A2/Red: 2 Levels of Incandescent Outp

Yes, sir! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif
 
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