I'm no expert on light technology but I thought I would respond to your post. Your friend says there are no true HIDs which is pretty vague so ask him what he means; what WE mean is something called metal halide arc discharge bulbs that run on high voltages. They do not have a filament, that's the key difference, and the unit must have a ballast to obtain the high voltage inputs it needs to achieve an arc discharge condition which is essentially the release of photons from a gaseous mixture rather than a super heated piece of wire. Indeed these lights do exist in small sizes and I have a flashlight version here in my home. A company called Welch Allyn has them in a number of sizes and powers. They are more efficient and produce a higher lumen per watt ratio than halogens. They are popularly thought of as blueish although they can be found in other colors owing to different gas formulations. If your friend has a point at all it may be that there are a lot of cheap imitation lights on the market that you just plug in where your filament bulb was and without a ballast. These are definitely not metal halide lights. I went to your link; I cannot say for sure what you have, but it does look like real arc discharge equipment to me. I don't know why if that is true the box didn't say metal halide on it but maybe they didn't want to confuse people. How much was the kit? Other people have posted pics of these kits here too. If it was under $100 it probably is a fake set. Real kits are much more than that. I can't recall how much the last one I saw was, but I'd guess $350. The cost factor is why only high end luxury cars come with metal halide lights. They are superior in a number of ways including better color temperature and brightness given a particular power supply. I hope this helps. Corrections welcome.
Someone who knows exactly what the gaseous formulations are may be able to clarify it more. I do not know if xenon is the same gas used in the best systems but without a filament it generally qualifies I suppose.
The bulbs are a D2S bulb with a base molded to fit into the 9006 socket. They have the external electrode spanning from the base to the tip of the bulb.
I know all too well about the imitation bulbs. I used to have a set, and they lasted about 4 months before giving out. The D2S bulb promises some 2,500 hours of life. That's pretty impressive.
I am going to pull one of the bulbs out tomorrow and shoot a few high-res pics with the 3Mpixel digital camera at work. That should shed a little light on the subject! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/blush.gif[/img]
I'll go out on a limb a little bit and say that these ARE arc discharge lamps that you have, no if's and's or but's. My source will be the nice article by Don Klipstein on this very subject and here's the link (I hope it works) http://www.misty.com/people/don/d2.html
Like I said there are a number of formulations used in these bulbs but this source clearly explains the subject well enough and states that xenon bulbs are one type of arc discharge formulation. I hope this is conclusive enough. I do not know if BMW's use the same formulation but what you have appears to be real arc discharge technology. I think it might be possible to qualify the counterclaim by saying the formulations differ and range from better to worse, but that was not how the issue came to me, only whether xenon can be type of formulation for the metal halide arc discharge bulb. The article distinguishes between a variety of arrangements in arc length, gaseous formulation, etc. but all of them are arc discharge lamps and the counterargument will have to change in order to go much further than it has now.
You actually have a metal halide flashlight??? I had no idea they were available. Do other flashaholics know about this? I'm amazed! I went to the Welch Allyn site(s) and achieved mainly frustration. The closest I could get to flashlights was a list of literally dozens, perhaps hundreds of model numbers.
Please lead me through the LUMENescent forest into the bright HIDden light!
(and please tell me all about your HID light and how to get these guys!!)
At this time the only mass produced Arc flashlight is the UKE LC100, but not for long [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] It is a true short arc light. Another way to tell if your light are Arc is if they get brighter over the first couple of seconds they are on. If they do you for sure have Arc lights. Also the wire going to the tip of the lamp is usually a giveaway, it is needed to fire the Arc up.
Thanks for the info.I hope Lightuser gets back on and clarifies what he meant.
By the way, One of the features of your site that I find particularly useful is the comparison chart. I believe it is probably unique. Your collection of lights must be extraordinary! (I was going to say awe-inspiring, but that is too trite.)
You know, I am normally a very rational person, highly professional, etc. etc. But...I go nuts over these d^^mn flashlights as though they were gorgeous women! What IS it with us flashaholics?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You actually have a metal halide flashlight??? I had no idea they were available. Do other flashaholics know about this? I'm amazed! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yeah, they are available (and in many different flavours too). Brock has already mentioned the Light Cannon, one of the more "affordable" and readily available HID lights.
But there are many others, ranging from the super powerful MaxaBeams, Xenonics Night Hunters and PlasmaBeams (dontcha just love the names) to the dive lights like the Kowalski Xenon, etc. Mind you these are lights ranging from mid-hundreds to $2000+ !!!!
HID lights are also found in some bike lights like the CatEyes and NiteRiders.
Right these are the ones. There are supposed to be a number of Chinese models not making it to the US-see the posts on these by this fellow from Singapore whom I think dropped out of our company:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by phyhsuts: Ther are quite a few lights out there with short arc lamps. Quite besides the MaxaBeam, Plasma Beam there is the: MegaRay MR250; American Safety Long Arm; KumKang 10-35 S.I;
KumKang 100-150 S.I; KumKang 50-80 S.I and KwangShin KS 50XE to name only those I know.I must say the last 4 are from S. Korea and is not available in the USA. (I am in Singapore)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are presently no medium "Maglite sized" arc discharge flashlights available I know of, although there certainly could be. The ones available now are all either chunky spotlight type units or are component systems for bikes or diving. It would be nice to see to see a 3D Maglite-size HID flashlight bearing the Welch Allyn 18-21 watt bulb, but ah, it just isn't done yet. The smallest HID anyone typically has is the UKE Light Cannon at 5 pounds. It's really a dive light and does not use the potent 21 watt bulb.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There are presently no medium "Maglite sized" arc discharge flashlights available I know of, although there certainly could be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not quite yet... but you can hold your breath now [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
ronman. Bithlo? Good Lord. I know where that is. Hwy 50, between Orlando and Christmas. Still have Friday night fistfights at that Bar/Barn? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brock: [QUOTE]Not quite yet... but you can hold your breath now [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please do tell more. What, when and how much. I like the idea of having one of those lights for my collection (a reasonably priced one) but don't like the pistol grip style of the light cannon. I want a regular style light even if it isn't surefire sized.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JB: brightnorm...
Oh yeah, they are available (and in many different flavours too). Brock has already mentioned the Light Cannon, one of the more "affordable" and readily available HID lights.
But there are many others, ranging from the super powerful MaxaBeams, Xenonics Night Hunters and PlasmaBeams (dontcha just love the names) to the dive lights like the Kowalski Xenon, etc. Mind you these are lights ranging from mid-hundreds to $2000+ !!!!
HID lights are also found in some bike lights like the CatEyes and NiteRiders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Did SOME research on the lights mentioned by JB above. ENJOY
UNDERWATER KINETICS Website
10w HID. 3-4hr burn time with 8 x Alkaline C-cell, NiMH or Nicad Cells, Accessory Nicad Pack.
Probably the most popular and widely available HID handheld torch! Retails ~$160-200 USD.
MAXABEAM website
You’ve probably seen this one in the movies! Jurassic Park to name one movie. Very bright due to its TIGHT beam, very large, and VERY expensive. I’ve seen them retail anywhere from $900+ USD
XENONICS NIGHTHUNTER Night Hunter
This is a big dive light rated to run 40-75 minutes on its researchable sealed lead battery. HEAVY. They don’t give what type of HID bulb they are using though. It must be bright is the battery is outputting 22VDC at 5.0amps. It has an adjustable beam from 0.5-100 degrees!
XENONICS NIGHTHUNTER II Night Hunter II
WHO SAID THERE WASN”T A HANDHELD HID??? Folks this is a first for me too to see something this small handheld. Again, no specified bulb type but it uses a rechargeable NiMH pack that outputs 14.4VDC at 4.1 amps. It has an adjustable beam from 0.5-25 degrees.
KOWALSKI XENON XENON Dive lights
This company looks like they are the big dogs in dive lights. But I wouldn’t know, this is the first time for me to research dive lights! OH AND MY ADDICTION GROWS!
There HID light….wait a minute… I don’t think this is HID!!! It says it uses a XENON bulb, not a short arc like the other companies. It says it uses a 24w xenon bulb so I’m SURE this isn’t an HID light. DAMN! If it was a 24W HID this thing would rock!!!
CAT EYE website Stadium 3
This was posted in another post. It is a bike mountable light that has a 21 watt metal halide bulb that can run for 3hrs on 12V NiMH batter pack.
NIGHT RIDER website Bike Storm2 Bike Blowtorch
They look like the same units as the dive units below, so I’m guessing they are both 10w also. They say they use a 5hr charge13.2V 4.0Ah NiMH battery and runs for about 4.00hrs. But the head mount HID system is truly amazing don't you think? Just imagine walking or jogging with HID technology on your head.... OOoohh MMyyy!
10w HLX/HID bulb. I think this is the same as the units above…same battery too.
They claim that it is equivalent to a 100w halogen bulb…but I doubt that when the LC100 is a 10w HID but is only equivalent to a 25w halogen. They say that it is rated at 3500 candle power, so I’m guessing that it is a very diffuse light. But that 21w HID bulb is by far the brightest I’ve seen listed!
WOW this took very long to research! I hope you all benefit from this one. Check out the other posts on HID lights in CPF, they are very enlightening as well! I’m gonna go play with my SF now! Haha.
more research....
I found a website that sells the Night Hunter 1 and 2, but there are no prices. The representative is out of the office, i'll call the company back again in 15 minutes and post the price.
Here's the website if you wanna check it out. They pretty much have the same info that is on Xenonics website.
Interesting post..
I'll have to get something for this nosebleed I have!-Must be those high altitude price tags again ..... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]
ah hmm... $1500 bucks!!! Are they outta their minds?! What's it got in it, moon dust?? This company looks to me like another one of those "we do mostly only government contracts" type deals. You (yes you, the taxpayer)award them a contract for about two point five million and they send out a hundred or so flashlights to some obscure regiment or department somewhere no questions asked. Remember the $500 dollar toilet seat? Probably some of that all over again. Ok I'll cool down it's just that I hate elitism. If a technology is available only to the rich it isn't really serving everyone it can serve.
(Puts away soap box.)
I guess I'll have to stick to my homebrew arc flashlight project development plans this Christmas. That will be all the more fun, and I can see it now: "CPF Project #192, $2500 dollar government arc discharge flashlight for only $49, plus $1 if you want the lanyard thingy on yours" and then go on for seven pages with details on how to jury-rig up a Light Cannon (cost= $200) to fit into a disemboweled Maglight (oh of course we lie about how much these projects really cost). Don't criticize. This and watch David Letterman shows are all we do during the holidays each year. Aside from cheap thrills it makes the time go by. It's not too bad if the flashlight still works after all those hours of Dremel chopping. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
hey ike... does the Light Cannon use a Solarc? If it does, does Solarc sell different types of reflectors? I'm asking becuase i want to know if one can modify the beam to be tighter, thus, reaching farther. Kind of like a turbo-head on a surefire.
great question and I'm not ike but yeah it's a solarc LK10-007 I think. The 10 means 10 watts although LC's push 12.5 watts though it. The reflector may or may not be W-A issue, but it definitely is removable. You could put anything in there and get any kind of beam looks to me. The LC has a medium focus but it would kick hiney if it were narrowed to a sharp angle.
That's good to hear. If i could just extract the bulb and it's hardware, i could probably fit all that stuff into my portable sportlight. It has a 6" reflector, i think that would work fine. But before i start messing with that i need to get a LC100, and before i get that i need to get 174.00, and before that i need a job... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Sucks being an unemployed college student. dang
[img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
The Kowolski Xenon is a Welch Allyn Solarc like nearly all the lights mentioned in this discussion string. The Europeans like to call these things Xenon even though there is absolutely no Xenon in the lamp. This comes from the Philips and Osram XMH (Xenon Metal Halide) auto headlamps. XMH got changed to Xenon in Marketing terms for it's gee wiz appeal. The Xenon only provides the instant on feature in the lamps. The light from a warmed up XMH is essentially pure metal halide. You can find all about Solarc at www.solarc.net and [url="http://www.walamp.com<A HREF="]web" TARGET=_blank>www.walamp.comweb page</A>web page
are you saying then that the Kowolski dive light is ACTUALLY using a 24w HID lamp???! OH MY! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] THat is BRIGHT! The pictures of a light cannon compared to a M6 is pretty similar...and that's a 10w HID. Just imagine a 24w!
The LC100 uses the single ended Solarc i.e. No reflector. UK provides the reflector. The The Standard Solarc reflectors are 6 and 13 degrees. It should be possible with the right reflector to focus a Solarc to about 2 degrees due to it's extremely small arc ... 1.2mm
I am wondering why no one makes HID flashlight with 2 x 5 sub C batteries. It will be more or less the size of UltraStinger but wider. Wouldn't it be real portable? With 3000ma subC, it could be able to have runtime of 1.5 hours.
Alan, i'll try to take a stab at that one. I don't think that type of battery configuration would limit an HID flashlight to be produced that way. I think that it is totally feasable. But the reason you haven't seen any produced is becuase HID technology used as a flashlight is fairly new technology. I mean, look at LEDs, they are just starting to be used in/as flashlights. I'd wait a while to see HID in flashlights, i believe that HID technology will go through the same process LEDs are going through right now. Probably the release of the LC100 would speed up the interest in the general public. Until then, consider HID flashlights/torches a novelty.
So far the only true handheld HID i've seen is the one i posted early called the Nightrider II from Xenonics. Unfortunately it is nearly 1500 dollars!
What i want to do is buy the LC100 and take the HID bulb and ballast, and put it into another housing that will be able to shape it's beam.
Hey ike, do you have any recommendations of any reflectors that will shape the LC100 HID bulb's beam to less than 5 degrees?
The Xenonics Nighthuntrer uses a High Pressure Xenon ARC lamp (not to be confused with a Xenon gas filled incadescent or a Xenon-Halogen mix. (see..... I told you not to use the term HID .. it is very misleading). The thing about High Pressure Xenon is it is no more efficient at producing lumens than an equivalent wattage halogen. High wattage halogen and high pressure xenon both produce about 20 lumens per watt. Actually a good halogen can produce signifacntly more. So what's so good about this technology in a flashlight and why does it appear so bright? It's the color of the light ... the high ~6500K CCT makes it look much brighter than halogen but this is an optical illusion. However, there is a real advantage and that is small source size. All those lumens are coming from an arc gap of only 1mm or so and they can be focussed into a very tight spot making the real measured candlepower (candela) very high. On the other hand a 50W halogen might have a filament of 4mm or larger and it is much harder to focus those lumens.
Now if they used Solarc technology (a variant of metal halide) then they could get all those lumens in the same tight spot for only 1/3 the power drain! So why didn't they do this? Answer: The current generation of Solarc doesn't have instant on or instant restrike. It takes a few seconds to come up to full brightness and several seconds must elaspse for the lamp to cool before re-striking. Since Xenonic's market is mainly military ... a solider wants the element of surprise and doesn't want the enemy to get a shot in while his flashlight is warming up!
So the point of this rambling ... HID is not a term that should be applied across all arc discharges; Xenon does a good job for this market, Solarc for some segments and Incadescent for others still.
well that's great news ike I was going to have to sell my family to get one of those Dollarhunter whoops... Nighthunter II's [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] I still hope someone will try and make a solarc 3 cell light somehow- it would fill the small arc void and outdo all present units by a country mile
Hey guys, I'm a newbie, so bear with my fumbling ignorance [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] . What exactly does 450 lumens translate to in CP?? I'm trying to determine if it's worth it to fork over 200 bucks when I can get a 2,000,000CP spotlight for 60 bucks (after all, the Arc LS and christmas shopping are gonna pinch the budget some!!)
Newbie with an HID question...
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