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Thread: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

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    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Yes sir. Part six continues here.

    Part five can be found back here.

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    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    So... I just replaced 20 standard bulbs in my EV instrument cluster with LEDs. That was fun.

    http://www.darelldd.com/ev/rav_dash_led.htm

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    Flashaholic* Beamhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    How about shots of the dash illuminated. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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    *Flashaholic* gadget_lover's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Cool project, (lamp replacement) Darell. You can photo-shop that last picture to correct the few errent polarity marks without ripping out the assembly.

    I can do it for you if you want.

    Daniel

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    Flashaholic* pedalinbob's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    http://tinyurl.com/bj7rk

    So, an EV has a range of about 100 miles, and requires 5 hours to charge?

    So for me to drive from Michigan to Florida (assuming 60mph average), it will take 1.6 hours/100 miles, then a 5 hour recharge. (I wonder what the mountains of the Carolinas will do to the mileage?)

    6.6 hours/100 miles x 12 = 79.2 hours.

    Ouch.

    I think we better keep working on new battery technology.

    I would still like one for going to work and getting around town.

    Bob

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    *Flashaholic* Brock's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Darell I am so glad you pimping out my ride so when I buy it from you it's all set [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    Now to get off topic whats up with the Toyota Highlander? I thought I read it had the smaller V6 with the 67hp electric motor up front and the 4 wheel drive version added more battery and a second 72hp motor for the rear wheels. The 4 wheel drive also had a faster 0-60 time. I can't find that link now.

    I just want somthing I can put 6 people in that gets good mileage, is that to much to ask? Oh and I want it electric.

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    *Flashaholic* James S's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    i always thought charging time was less a problem with the batteries and more a problem with available power. They can charge must faster than a 15 or 20 amp socket can charge them, plugging into an electrical outlet yes, 5 hours. 20 minutes from an 80 amp socket [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    One place where the economists are right about supply and demand would be here. If everybody buys just the electric with a 100 mile range. You'll be able to get a regular gas car for the weekends on rental whenever you want to take that family trip for cheap. And every weekend that you travel will still never add up to the $250+ or more that you'd pay a month for your loan payments on a second gas car.

    I look forward to the day I can do that.

  8. #8
    Flashaholic* Wolfen's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    New Diesel Hybrid Military Vehicle
    Called the Shadow RST-V it can go 35 km on a charge and can operate on a single hub motor.

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    *Flashaholic* gadget_lover's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    [ QUOTE ]
    pedalinbob said:

    So, an EV has a range of about 100 miles, and requires 5 hours to charge?

    So for me to drive from Michigan to Florida (assuming 60mph average), it will take 1.6 hours/100 miles, then a 5 hour recharge. (I wonder what the mountains of the Carolinas will do to the mileage?)

    6.6 hours/100 miles x 12 = 79.2 hours.

    Ouch.

    I think we better keep working on new battery technology.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I can think of even worse situations Bob.

    1) What if I have a Mazda Miata and 4 kids? Driving them to Florida from Michigan will take 1200 / 60 * 5 * 2 or 200 hours, and that does not include sleeping. That assumes that I carry only one passenger at a time so I need to make 5 round trips.

    2) How many trips will it take to transport 2 yards of wet concrete in the back of my pickup? Does that include fixing the suspension afterward?


    My first motorbike (90 CC 2 stroke Suzuki) got about 90 MPG and had a 1.25 gallon tank. I recall getting 1000 miles on a quart of 2 stroke oil. It was legal only on city streets. There were a lot of places you just couldn't get to on it. Even if you could get on the freeway, there were places where the gas stations were more than 90 miles apart in 1971.

    It's all in using the proper tool for the job. I buy a plane ticket for cross country travel. I rent a moving van for transporting furniture. I have concrete delivered. I've rented a town car on occasion for long trips in luxury. My Prius will take me and 3 passengers anywhere in reasonable comfort and reasonable milage.

    Daniel

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    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    First off, I wanted to post this:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I am doing a study about hybrid vehicles for my master's thesis and I
    > am trying to find people interested in the technology who would be
    > willing to fill out a short online survey. You would help me
    > tremendously by completing the questionnaire!
    >
    > I try to learn more about people's motivations to drive these
    > environmentally friendly and energy efficient cars. The results will
    > be used to determine how more of those vehicles could be brought to
    > our roads.
    >
    > You can find the survey under the following URL :
    > http://www.zoomerang.com/survey.zgi?p=WEB224EMSPHTMC
    >
    > Please be assured that the survey is anonymous and has not got any
    > commercial background whatsoever.
    >
    > THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP!
    >
    > Miriam L. Fischlein
    >
    > Visiting Student at the University of Minnesota Feel free to contact
    > me with questions and comments under tel. 612-253-3654 or per e-mail
    > fisch355 "at" umn.edu

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    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    OK, so Daniel has pedalinbob covered pretty well. (Nicely done, Daniel [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img])

    Daniel makes some great points! It is true that EVs are not great at everything. And pickup trucks aren't great at everything, and motorcycles, and hybrids and sports cars... yadda yadda. Each vehicle excels at something. An EV excels at the 90% of miles that Americans drive relatively close to home. Interestingly enough, I hear stories of drivers who brag about only filling up the gas tank once/month, or even once every TWO months. Well, that's crazy! That just means that a old-fashioned BEV from yesteryear would hold enough energy for each day's driving with LOTS left over.

    And then James comes along and brings up the point that all this discussion is based on the VERY few BEVs that were every sold here. If a real effort were made to build a BEV today, the game would be totally different. If we have the money and resources to make FCVs and fueling stations in the next 20-30 years, then we could have awesome 300-mile, quick-charge BEVs TODAY!

    Fun to start these new threads. Makes everything seem fresh and nice. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    Pedalinbob - Here's MY FAQ, BTW. Anything I should add to it?
    http://www.darelldd.com/ev/ev_faq.htm

    It too, addresses the charge time, range, etc.

  12. #12
    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    [ QUOTE ]
    gadget_lover said:
    Cool project, (lamp replacement) Darell. You can photo-shop that last picture to correct the few errent polarity marks without ripping out the assembly.

    I can do it for you if you want.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    Thanks for the generous offer, but I'll be taking it out several more times in the next month, I'm sure. I'll just take another picture at that time.

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    Flashaholic* pedalinbob's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Great job on the FAQ, Darell. Very informative--I didn't know you had that page.

    I am NOT trying to be difficult at all--I am trying to get a handle on both the cababilities and limitations of current EV technology.

    I agree to some extent on the "right tool for the job", but it seems to gloss over the limitations I outlined above.
    I find some of the examples to be "apples to oranges".
    Comparing the capabilities of a passenger car to a heavy truck is a bit odd.

    Yet, I could own a single vehicle that could perform all of the tasks you outlined (the dreaded SUV), but mileage and emissions would suck.

    Long distance travel via EV is severely inadequate, and it may force you to more expensive (or much less convenient) solutions such as having an ICE vehicle, planning flights (plus renting a car at your destination) or taking much longer to travel.

    I am certainly NOT arguing against EV's, as I have stated before, I wold love to have one or two for most of our driving needs. I want to see the technology and infrastructure flourish.

    Take care,
    Bob

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    *Flashaholic* James S's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Once a year or so I bring home a load of lumber from the lumber yard, but I don't own a truck just in case I want to do that once a year. i rent a truck for an hour to do it.

    4 or 5 times in my life I've moved and packed everything I own into a semi and either driven it myself or had it driven cross country. But I don't own a semi so I can do this, I rent someone elses.

    I go on vacation or on long drives several times a year. I dont see that there should be any problem in renting a car or an ICE-SUV to do that with. Matter of fact, I'm thinking of renting an RV next year [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] renting the best thing on the market for 2 or 3 weeks a year is still an order of magnitude cheaper than paying for a second ICE vehicle loan, upkeep, taxes, etc...

    So I'm all for owning the electric car and renting the gas when you need it. It doesn't make sense to argue for the other for the vast majority of people.

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    *Flashaholic* gadget_lover's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Pedlinbob said....
    Comparing the capabilities of a passenger car to a heavy truck is a bit odd.


    Not really. It's an example of how a single vehicle will not do everything that you might possibly want. Darell's point is that most of the time you don't require anywhere near the range of your yearly trip. Many people seldom travel more than 20 miles in a day, and most travel less than 100 miles per trip. This does not include the millions that commute between cities.

    If you make a trip from Michigan to Florida frequently, an EV would not be a logical choice for your only vehicle. A hybrid, on the other hand, may be right for you. Or a high efficiency diesel.

    BTW, The SUV is not the complete solution it appears to be. An SUV has limited cargo area, and the dimensions are constrained by the roof and profile of the doors. Most people would not want to stuff tree branches, weeds, vegetation and other debris into their SUV for a ride to the local landfill.

    It is entertaining to watch people at Costco trying to load the big screen TV or child's playset in their SUV, only to find that something in the SUV design gets in the way of the box. I had a station wagon once (Taurus) that drove me crazy. Its rear hatch had a curved outline that severely limited the cargo you could squeeze into the back.

    Daniel

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    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Bob -

    No worries, I know we're on the same team here! I just get a bit fiesty sometimes. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    Another example of how the all-mighty SUV is NOT the perfect all-around solution for a single vehicle is trying to park the thing in a large cit - Like NY or SF. Parking is SO tight in the City that my Civic often seems too big. Try plunking your Excursion in one of those on-street parallel spots! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif[/img] And I have neighbors in realtively new homes near me who can't even fit their SUVs in their garage! Yikes.

    Another very important point is that MOST families already have two vehicles. And one of those vehicles (in most cases, but not all!) does NOTHING but commute relatively short distances (and by that I mean less than 40 miles in most cases). THAT's the car that should be BEV. Not the one that drives across the country every other day.

    I totally agree that at this time, EVs are not the solution cross-country driving. No question about it. In fact, I should add to the FAQ that BEVS are not THE solution here. I know it sometimes sounds like I think that, but I don't. My main push here (I like to say this every now and again) is to have BEVs *available* for those who want to drive them. Right now we don't even have the option to see how well they'll work for the majority of drivers.

    If I had to purchase another car today, I wouldn't even think twice. I would purchase a Prius. I don't have the option of buying a new vehicle that can burn biodiesel, and the prius is as close to "clean" as a gas-burning car can be... in fact it is the closest thing we have to a PURE BEV on the market today.

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    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    I may have posted this article before, but now it is in our (relatively) local paper. My daughter is featured in it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    click

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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    And I will also add that SUV's are just not as flexible as some people would like to believe. We are trying to replace a large minivan with an SUV and it is tough! The SUV will rarely seat 8 unless it is a full size and then you almost HAVE to get a v8 with lousy mileage. I know there is a stigma attached to driving a minivan like there used to be to a station wagon. But they are very flexible!

    But, I am seriously looking to see how the Higlander Hybrid works out. Much better mileage than my van, smaller, but reasonable. So, my next vehicle might just have to be a hybrid. Especially driving as far to work as I do.

    No one car CAN do it all. I can see having a third vehicle that is BEV. Or maybe a small motorcycle, or scooter. Who knows. But being flexible in your thinking is a key factor.

  19. #19

    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    [ QUOTE ]
    Darell said:If I had to purchase another car today, I wouldn't even think twice. I would purchase a Prius. I don't have the option of buying a new vehicle that can burn biodiesel, and the prius is as close to "clean" as a gas-burning car can be... in fact it is the closest thing we have to a PURE BEV on the market today.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Actually...if carbon emissions are important to you, a Dodge Caravan running on E85 has about HALF the carbon emissions per mile that a Prius has; a Taurus on E85 has even less. Plus...the fuel is renewable. A Caravan gets 17 mpg on E85. That means a Caravan will travel 113 miles on a gallon of petroleum when mixed with 85% renewable ethanol.

    And...that Caravan with "Stow-N-Go" seating is a VERY versatile vehicle! (part car, part truck, part camper for two!)

    Now...if they just made the Prius to run on E85. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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    Flashaholic* pedalinbob's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Actually, there is no way I would own an SUV.

    Big gas hog, bad handling, expensive as hell, harder to park. Ok for some, but not for me.

    "That means a Caravan will travel 113 miles on a gallon of petroleum when mixed with 85% renewable ethanol.

    And...that Caravan with "Stow-N-Go" seating is a VERY versatile vehicle! (part car, part truck, part camper for two!)"

    That is a darn cool idea.

    Bob

  21. #21
    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    So I just swapped some emails with an EV friend who is the VP of engineering for EnergyCS - the group who's technology is being used by CalCars for their Plug-in Prius concept. EnergyCS is also the group who designed the Green Goat that I linked to earlier (the hybrid switching locomotive)- to give you some perspective.

    Anyway, I bring this up because they hope to have a retail product on the market next year, and are currenlty driving a few protos around. With Cruise Control set at 55mph, my friend can and does achieve 200mpg on a tank of gasoline - when it is augmented by plugging it in every now and again to top up the extra-capacity batteries. If driven the same way that acheives 47mpg in the stock current-model Prius, the EnergyCS unit gets over 100mpg. Now, how cool is that? A gasoline car that actually can acheive 100-200mpg under real-world conditions. All it takes is adding a bit of BEV. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    No, I don't know/can't share the details (weight/cost, etc). Just know that it is coming...a nd it is good... and I can't wait!

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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Darell, I got a job with a company that use to make EVs and has a nice shop with plenty of smart people. I havent won the lottery yet, but when I do, I want your advice and others here to make one hell of a hotrod EV with range, performance and a dump charging station like a gas station and a dump charging truck.

    I drool at the 440 outlets I see at the various poles that support the roof. I imagine using 4 of them to fill up our show/service truck and other rental cars.

  23. #23
    *Flashaholic* James S's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    [ QUOTE ]
    Just know that it is coming

    [/ QUOTE ]

    it works, it is appropriate and would sell today, it is better than anything on the market, it's a technology proven by someone actually using it today...

    nope, won't ever happen [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Those are precisely the things that tank mysteriously later on in the development process... Tell them to be careful...

  24. #24
    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    [ QUOTE ]
    cobb said:
    Darell, I got a job with a company that use to make EVs and has a nice shop with plenty of smart people.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    What's the company, and what's the EV?

  25. #25
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Its the baker company that made the postal vans.

  26. #26
    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Ah yeah!

    LA times article on the plug-in hybrid project. Toyota's response is the first positive thing they've ever had to say about "plugging it in."

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    *Flashaholic* JonSidneyB's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Horse

  28. #28
    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Cow

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif[/img]

  29. #29
    *Flashaholic* JonSidneyB's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    Horse has better acceleration than Cow. If you decided to go Bull there are issues as well. Brama Bull has stearing issues. Horse has well designed accessories for them such as a variety of after market seat manufacturers. Very few accessories for using Cow or Bull for transportation.

    Horse can also help clean up some unwanted weeds in the yard and also keeps other vegitation trimed back. Lets see your EV do that. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif[/img]

    Also Horse has auto pilot. If you fall asleep at the reigns. You will eventually end up back home.

  30. #30
    *Flashaholic* Darell's Avatar
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    Default Re: EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, Part 6

    [ QUOTE ]
    JonSidneyB said:
    Horse can also help clean up some unwanted weeds in the yard and also keeps other vegitation trimed back. Lets see you EV do that.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Oh, I've got you covered there!




    And it is interesting to note that one of the biggest reasons folks wanted to switch from horse to automobile was because of the big (piles of) pollution problem that horses emitted in the cities. Of course we pretty much started with electrics, which made some sense. But here we are today. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

    BTW, I've seen some cows accelerate at an alarming rate. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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