why is there a lack of Custom incandescents?

Hey Folks:

I noticed that with the excpetion of Fivemega(damn you money magnet for the rest of us), there are no custom incandescent light builder. Yes, I know there has been the USL, the Polaris, the Nule, and such, but they are small runs and are pretty pricy, and they are all based on the D-mags.

We have a billion kinds of LED lights here, many of them designed and built with such precision and quallity that makes me drool as if I were in a North Carolina steak house on a all-you-can-eat competition night...(I mean, look at McGizmo, ArcMania, TNC, HDS, ARCs). But they are LED lights, and they are too sensible and utilitarian for primates like me(I mean, you are hearing from someone who judges lights by how bright they are compared to automotive headlights...). Hell JimH said in his sig better than I can, "the hell with runtime, I just want to hold the sun in my hand".

So, enough ranting, is there anyone that is willing to make custom incandescents? I forgot who(I apologize, let me know if you are reading this--edit: it was AW) but the fella that made the 2 li-ion TL-3 bulb minimag really made me impressed. Hell, use the 14270, make a 1-AA sized light that pumps out lot of power. But not just that, if anyone can incoporate a voltage regulator into it, so that Li-ion wouldn't explode in your had, we'ver got a bright future to look forward to ain't we?

Imagine, a regulated 1 1/2 AA sized light that pumps out as much power as a Surefire M4(even if for a tiny runtime), you folks see where I'm getting?

Hell, ditch the Minimag body, it's too thin to take the heat. We already have people making the body tubes for LED lights that would be perfect for this...

We can dream, right?

Until then, I'll be using my C3 and pilas as a sort-of-small pocket light canon...

Because Surefire has done such a kicka55 job of building small fine incandescents /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

270,

Patience is a virtue, my friend!!

There are great and wondrous things on the near horizon!! (Well horizon anyway!)

There are at least 3 regulated prototype incans that I know of on the drawing board or in the near build stages, and probably several others that I don't know about. Some of them may make large scale production and I know that at least one of them is planned to do so.

The demise of the incan is highly exaggerated and not as near as many might have you believe!

The one I know the most about will incorporate regulation, a relatively small size, and a relatively decent run time. There may even be a modular concept similar to the Alephs, but with a different powerplant process.

Hang in there, there are bright lights at the end of the tunnel, and they ain't a train!!!!

Bill

Bill, you just made my day.

Kevin, you are such a Surefire whore(ehm so am I, come to think of it)

Nick

Well...could have a lot to do with the bulbs. The brighter ones are a little too big to stick in a small light. There are Fivemega's custom bulbs...like the FM 22 watt axial bulb which is really small and takes a lot of juice. Well....you're right (W270), it could be done if you used 3 14270's with some type of regulator and one of FM's tiny axial bulbs. Probably wouldn't last any more than a couple of minutes, but it'd be pretty impressive.

The TL-3 Minimag mod mentioned (AW's) is supposed to be coming out in a kit! I eagerly awaiting this one!

270,

Myself, Ginseng, and bwaites are all tied up in major projects right now, so that removes three of the people likely to do something like this, although there are certainly others.

And like Bill said, some of us ARE dreaming of custom incans.

But . . .

As much as I love incans, I know that I am in the minority--significantly in the minority--and I know that very soon now, the bright incan will lose ground rapidly against improving HID and LED technology. Even before that happens, though, there just isn't nearly as much interest in a high price high quality custom incan as there is in something like a McGizmo or MR Bulk or tvodrd creation. LED's are in. Filaments are out. Small is in. Big is out.

Plus, as KevinL has pointed out, there are already some incredible quality incans out there. Take a C2, add a P61 and a clickie, and you've got one dang bright, pretty small light. Or take the A2 as is, and you have a very versatile, good throwing, regulated incan, all for $180. I can't compete with that!

If the USL or M6-R or Tiger11/74/85 or FM's stuff or the SF lights, aren't enough, then it's not likely that you will ever be satisfied with the state of the high quality incan world.

And, yeah, what's with the "only MagD" comment? What about the M6-R or TL mods? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif

I just started dabbling in incan... bought a 3D based hotwire.. instaflashed my first bulb just a few days after getting the light.. now (1318).. now i'm using the 1185.. very nice amount of light.. but the non-regulated bit bugs me.. especially with the turn-on surge.. i'm going to build a soft-start circuit to run the 1318.. i like the power characteristics better on that.. not quite as bright but much nicer runtime and heat.. and with a simple soft-start/LDO i don't have to worry about instaflashing anymore and can run the light with 'hot' batteries and have a consistant output as well.

bang for buck hotwire is where it's at.. for utility lighting though.. i'll take the likes of the BAM first for sure. ( http://bam.rouse.com )

-awr

Andrew,

One of the problems that you'll run into is that regulating the Hotwires means extra cells. For instance, I think it takes about 11 cells, instead of 9, to run a regulated 1185 for about 30 minutes. I suspect the 1318, with less draw, will be the same, but will run longer.

Bill

270W,

Incans are my great fascination. But you already knew that. Truly custom incans will always have a niche for several reasons. In fact, what it really is, is a unique combination of the following factors.

1) simplicity
2) cost
3) output
4) light quality, including color

The performance envelope the Aurora, Mule, FM, Polaris, etc. occupy is not greatly practical but is compelling. Truly custom and one and two-offs will be built, now and in the future. But you can rest assured that the most rabid of incan modders are thinking not one but two and three steps ahead. We are well aware of what HID and LED hold for the near future.

But I will offer one caveat. Analogous to the situation in high-end audio where vinyl continues to attract staunch supporters, the best of the coming breed may not be affordable, accessible or even available. Unlike HE audio, no one is likely to pay $1,000 for a stunning incan. For production units, look to SureFire, Streamlight and Pelican and a few others.

People will always knock super-incans for things like runtime, regulation or size. But those who do, miss the point. This is what they are, this is what they do and these are the reasons they excel and remain so mystifying. Is it possible to make a highly finished 100W regulated incan with 40 minutes of continuous runtime? Yes, yes, yes and yes. But so doing would push the elegance of the design out of the technologically defined sweet spot. Of course this is based on the support technologies we can reasonably bring to bear right now. In the future, even the near future? Who knows?

The bottom line is, unfortunately, that the market is simply too small to support the development of monster performers. Money means volume and volume means mass attraction.

Wilkey

Js:

My apologies. Your Tigerlight variants somehow escaped my memory for a moment, and I stand corrected, the same goes for the M6R. But then again, I missed the Tigerlight train, and when you were offeringthe M6 I was still trying to buy a M3t... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I agree wtih Ginseng that there is definitely not a big market for custom incandscent lights.

The thing that makes me still holding a slim hope for the wires is their afforability and and simplicity.I have no reservation of overdriving things because when they go "POP", another 4 dollar bulb we go. Try that with a HID ballast or a ultra-rare Luxeon emitter.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the advancement in LED tech greatly, I went a complete 180 in the last 6 months after I discovered the world of Luxeon lights, but the kid in me still likes to hold a 3-D that pumps out over 100 times the out put of the stock light...Nothing else slows down a approaching speeding drivier around a blind curve when you are walking at night, short of carrying a bulky spolight on you.

JS, looking forwardly I think you are right, eventually the wires on the way out, but that for me doesn't happen until they can make 50-watt LEDs pumping out upwards of 2500+ lumens, or HID modules come down in price and easy to replace like a bulb, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif

Incancs don't have to be huge. Take a R123 and a good 3.7 bulb, we instantly have a E1e on speed. Take a 7.2 volt bulb and 2 Li-ion we have the potential for great things...now damn those explosive-tempered Li-Po batteries that are still periodically acting up once a while...

Must, go, charge, batteries...'

Nick

I'd love to use LiPoly's or LiIons, but they still have a hard time with the draw of the high output incans.

But, we're working on it!

Bill

There will always be a place for incans in the high output domain. In the sub 100 lumens domain LEDs have already won the battle IMO, but I don't expect to see a 10000 lumens single emitter LED in my lifetime. The most limiting factor for todays incans is the current battery technology and lack of regulation, but now that Molicel have a 26700 Li-Ion cell capabable of 100A discharge, hopefully we some day can see 14500 cells capable off 20A discharge. Imagine using those together with Osram super bulbs. You could make a 10000 lumens light the size of a Mag 2D.
In the future heat issues may be the only thing holding us back.
In the short term, more use of regulation will probably be where the advancements will be.

Sigbjoern

Very interesting thread.

I am a big fan of LED technology and do agree with lurveleven that in sub 100 lumen camp, LED do have a lot of advantage.

But I too do recall many years ago, the first time excitement of turning on a Mag 6C ages ago or the mag1185 nowadays, there is no better thrill than this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

At any rate, technology advancement might bring us more 'robust' or 'cheaper' products for incan. So either we have bulbs that could run bright and white for a long time/battery capable to handle heat and high current draw, or simply some current bulb/battery prices will go down because of better production technologies/mass production.

And I would expect that there is nothing holding us back in the distant future, even the heat issue could be managed reasonably well--that some day, maybe we could find all the internals optimized(durable, lasting, capable of heat and high current draw, etc) and a body that could isolate the heat for use. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Lurv,

Shhhhhhh! Quiet!!!!

Bill

[ QUOTE ]
bwaites said:
Lurv,

Shhhhhhh! Quiet!!!!

Bill

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif

Bill, if you ever make one, I will love to get one. First in line...pp ready! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

hey thanks for the reminder about those molicel's.. i happen to own 14 of them.. about to buy another 7.. can't wait to get them operational it's a very interesting thought to use them in a high-performance incan light.. i think i could get 3 into a 3D or 3C light with the right tweaking.. but 2 would actually be enough with the right driver which i'm also working on.

I'm a huge fan of the LED in lights but bang-for-buck hotwire surely bests the LED in output.. just has the trade-offs of an incan.. i think that because of the wild swing in the pros n cons of the two.. they are both here to stay for quite a while. I for one am very happy to have both.. just like the motto of CPF.. definitely applies on 'incan or led'.. buy both.

-awr

What? 26700 Li-Ion cells? That's the diameter of a C cell and a little longer than a D cell, right? Two of those should easily fit in a Mag 2D. Throw in a LOP, UCL and potted WA1111 and you've got 880 lumens, right?

Holy cow, three of those and you run an 1185 pretty easily for over 1000 lumens. I really like the idea of a regulated/soft-start 1185-based light.

I'm a total new to the whole hotwire thing. I can barely afford the Mag-based mods that fivemega and others offer. There's no way I (and most other CPFers) could afford one built from scratch.

StoneDog,

880 bulb-Lumens if and only if they batteries are holding 7.2 volts at the mid-point of the run, which they won't necessarily do.

Then, you must take only 65 percent of the bLumens to arrive at torch-Lumens (tLumens). So an 1111 light is usually just under 500 to something over 570, depending on the batteries.

ahh, like I said, I'm a total hot-wire newb. Sorry to clutter the thread. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

StoneDog,

Not at all! Not at all! I just like to spread the Gospel according to js, far and wide. Stuff like this bears repeating and I'm happy to do it. Err, well maybe not happy all the time, but it's certainly no problem and no bother.