Four cavers die in UT - only one light among them

LowWorm

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Four young adults went caving in an obscure cave up on "Y" mountain on Friday...these guys and girls were not professional cavers and didn't have the proper equipment. One professional caver said that they should have had, at a MINIMUM, three sources of light per person. Rescuers only found one flashlight in the cave.

I don't know if flashlights would have saved their lives (God bless them and their families), but I was wondering what kind of lights would be recommended for this kind of excursion?

cave081905.jpg


Full story at The Deseret News .
 

Grox

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

That's tragic, in the true sense of the word. Needless, preventable deaths. I don't mean to be callous or heatless but it's totally pointless too. If you're caving, do it properly. One of the girls in that story said that she'd passed out on a previous caving trip. Wouldn't that be sign enough to prepare better and to take the right safety precautions. I feel sorry for their families.

Stories like this remind me of the need to be prepared...
 

Wutda

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

Tragic indeed. Based on the illustration, wouldn't you need some sort of diving light to successfully navigate those caverns? Or a light that was at least waterproof.

I have no such light so i would not have attempted to go in there.

God Bless them & their families.
 

nightshade

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

[ QUOTE ]
Grox said:
That's tragic, in the true sense of the word. Needless, preventable deaths. I don't mean to be callous or heatless but it's totally pointless too. If you're caving, do it properly. One of the girls in that story said that she'd passed out on a previous caving trip. Wouldn't that be sign enough to prepare better and to take the right safety precautions. I feel sorry for their families.

Stories like this remind me of the need to be prepared...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. All the equipment and numbers in the world can't replace experience, training and common sense. My heart goes out to the victims and their families. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

voodoogreg

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

Terrible. I really feel for the families. heart felt prayer's for all. Be thy with the Lord. VDG
 

PeLu

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

If you stir up mud in the water it does not matter how many lights you have.
(and BTW, it is not a cave).
When going through a short sump like this one (following a line or rope), a torch/flashlight could be more hindering than helping.

And the fact that they only found one light does not necessarly mean that there were not more with them (but too less anyway)
 

Teh

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

I bet none of them were flashaholics, and I wonder what was the one light they had.
 

paulr

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

I don't think there was any way to search every inch of the cave. Just because only one flashlight was found, doesn't mean more weren't scattered about or buried in the mud.

Anyway though, I thought cavers like wearing helmet-mounted headlamps, not using handheld flashlights.

If I were to go caving with the minimum 3 light sources, I think I'd choose, based on lights that I actually own:

1) helmet mounted headlamp (right now the only headlamp I have is a PT Aurora but I think cavers like more powerful ones)

2) Long-throw powerful handheld light, ranging from a Streamlight TL3 to an MC85 (or USL?) in a belt holster, depending on how much weight I was willing to carry.

3) Long-running emergency backup, e.g. CMG Infinity or Tektite Trek Lithium, on a neck lanyard under my shirt.

Of course being a flashaholic I'd have a few other lights besides those. Come to think of it, that underwater tunnel deal would have called for dive lights. Better leave the not-so-waterproof MC85 at home.
 

Sigman

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

4 young lives lost - a real tragedy! I always try to tell my sons, if it doesn't feel right, don't do it. Think about it, are you really prepared to "do" what you are about to do...peer pressure...just being untrained, unprepared, uneducated...

Sad indeed! Thoughts & prayers to their families for sure!
 

LowWorm

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

[ QUOTE ]
PeLu said:
If you stir up mud in the water it does not matter how many lights you have.
(and BTW, it is not a cave).
When going through a short sump like this one (following a line or rope), a torch/flashlight could be more hindering than helping.

And the fact that they only found one light does not necessarly mean that there were not more with them (but too less anyway)

[/ QUOTE ]

PeLu, what is the definition of a cave?

And yes, the water in the "cave" was very dirty, which they said could affect visibility drastically. That's why I was wondering if any lights, at all, would work for such a situation.

And no, only one light (and a few unlit candles) was found underground with these folks. They drained the water and searched the area thoroughly.
 

matthewdanger

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

This is really a shame. My prayers are with the families.
 

David_Campen

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

From what I have heard this wasn't a cave but a mine adit. The term "caver" should be used for people who actually have some idea what they are doing; the derogatory term "spelunker" would be more appropriate here though I think the term "dumb kids" is best.
 

paulr

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

Spelunker is a perfectly good, non-derogatory word for caver, from everything I can tell.
 

David_Campen

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

[ QUOTE ]
Spelunker is a perfectly good, non-derogatory word for caver,from everything I can tell.

[/ QUOTE ]
Among cavers it is a derogatory term applied to people who don't know what they are doing. A synonym for "spelunker" is "flashlight caver".
 

Lmtfi

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

Spelunker is a non-derogatory term - as Paulr noted above.
 

David_Campen

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway though, I thought cavers like wearing helmet-mounted headlamps, not using handheld flashlights.

[/ QUOTE ]
They do, hence the use by cavers of the term "flashlight caver" for someone who doesn't know what they are doing.
 

David_Campen

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

[ QUOTE ]
Spelunker is a non-derogatory term - as Paulr noted above.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, its a derogatory term, has been for about 40-50 years.
 

David_Campen

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

Spelunker:
http://www.umsl.edu/~joellaws/ozark_caving/mss/spelunk.htm

Sometime in the 1960s (according to Joe Walsh, and probably during an earlier upsurge of interest in venturing underground), spelunker began to take on the connotation of rank amateur, while those "in the know" but not degreed scientists began to refer to themselves as cavers. Steve Knutson (editor of American Caving Accidents) makes the same distinction in a 1995 article given at a Risk Management conference:


..."Note that I use the term "spelunker" to denote someone untrained and unknowledgeable in current exploration techniques, and "caver" for those who are."
Spelunker, at this time, carries with it the image of a tennis-shod explorer, caving in cotton clothing by the light of a hand held flashlight, with butane lighters for backups. They are notorious for descending freehand, on cotton or manila rope, with little thought for the ascent. Pushing Coleman lanterns in crawlways is another favorite spelunker trick. Spelunkers differ from novice cavers in that (usually) the novice is attempting to learn correct techique. According to Clive Keen of British Columbia, "calling someone a spelunker up here is a serious insult." In the States, one wishing to be taken seriously avoids the word in self-reference, corrects others who accuse him or her of being a spelunker, and proudly displays the bumper sticker, "Cavers Rescue Spelunkers."
 

bwaites

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

Wow guys, way OT here.

This was a tragedy, regardless. More of what I would expect from 18 year olds than a 28 y/o and 24 y/o!

They made a mistake, in this case one that had fatal consequences.

My prayers and heart go out to their families. I have a 20 year old and an 18 year old and I can only imagine the pain those families are in.

If anything, maybe it will serve to alert those who consider caving an amateur sport. Even amateurs need proper guidance and preparation.

However, this was not caving, or even spelunking, these kids were just goofing off and paid the ultimate price for a misjudgement.


Bill
 

David_Campen

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Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if flashlights would have saved their lives (God bless them and their families), but I was wondering what kind of lights would be recommended for this kind of excursion?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, back on topic. It is quite possible that no lights would have saved them. What they were doing is called "sump diving" and it is very hazardous even for people who are highly trained. A common event in sump diving is that fine sediment on the bottom is stirred into the water resulting in zero visibility and disorienting the diver to the point that he can't even tell up from down, the diver then needs to follow the guidline that he has laid to find the way out. Also sump divers use some sort of SCUBA, they don't attempt to free dive the sump.
 
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