Need help designing a (PAR 64) light bar for my jeep

[Aaron1100us]

I have a 2001 jeep cherokee and was thinking of putting a light bar on top. Most people get one and put KC or some other normal brand of lights on it. Well, that just isn't going to be good enough I can't remember who it was but I think I've read about a few people on here building lights with those PAR 64 aircraft landing bulbs. I've found some bulbs, seems like they are either 600w or 1000w. Would like to do 4 1000w bulbs but not sure if my alternator could power that. Not even sure if it could power 4 600w bulbs. I know I would need a 12v to 28v step up transformer but have no idea on where to find something like that. Does anyone have any suggestions on how many bulbs to use, what wattage to use, what to use to power this and will this even work? I'd just love to be able to turn the night into day Are all PAR 64 bulbs 28 volts? Any thoughts or suggestions would be great. Thanks

[Diesel_Bomber]

Well, all things are possible. Anything(and I do mean anything!) can be made to work. It's the whole practical part that's gonna get ya.

I haven't looked it up, but at best you have a 150 amp alternator. Most likely you have something closer to 130 or even 90 amps. 150 amps X 14 volts = 2100 watts. So, assuming you don't run anything else that uses electricity(cough cough) and ignoring voltage conversion losses(coughing more), you might be able to run two 1000w lights. But not for long, oh no. Modern alternators are cold rated. If you were to continuously pull full rated amperage from them, they would soon catch fire.

So, off the top of my head, I see two ways to do this.

First, add a couple batteries and a complicated set of relays to switch between series/parallel. Charge from your stock alternator @ 14v or whatever in parallel, and then switch the battery/relay mess over to series to run the lights at 24 volts. Hopefully that'll be enough kick, but you're still automatically losing 14% of their rated voltage; I don't think it'll do too well. Obviously, this won't be continuous-run. And you'll probably come into contact with the cold-rated alternator problem mentioned above, trying to charge two batteries up from dead. Relays that'll handle the amperage will be tough to come by, too.

Second option. Go to your friendly local automotive-electric/motor rewinder establishment and see if they can cook up an alternator/generator/doohickamobobber that'll put out the required voltage and amperage. They'll probably have to start with something large case, a big Leece-Neville or Prestolite. Good luck fitting it in your engine compartment and running a belt to it, though I'm sure you'll manage. You'll have to hack into the AC idle-up solenoid and get it to kick on when you throw the switch on those bad boys; no way you're going to make enough power at idle.

I'm not trying to discourage you, I'd love to see it happen! But it's gonna be a battle. Good luck, bud. Now, where'd I put those sunglasses.........




Edit: Quick Google search has shown that 1kw Par64 landing lights are not to be allowed to come into contact with liquids while in operation. I also found some 500w Par64's that run off of 120v here.

P.S. You might just run a second alternator and second battery, use an inverter, and use 120vac to run some bad ass lights. Then you'd have onboard 120vac power for other things, as well as a secondary electrical system in case your first should fail in the woods.

P.P.S. Got no sleep last night and it's been a loooooooooooooong day today, so I apologize in advance for any lapses.

[Aaron1100us]

Hey, thanks for the reply, very good ideas. I was thinking of the DC to AC converter. I did find a 2000w continuous 4000w peak for around $250. Two of those, an added battery and added or seriously upgraded alternator just might do it. I do mechanic work for a hobby so I might be able to rig something up. My current alternator is 117 amps so I might be able to have it re-wound or see how big of an alternator I can find. not much room to add a second alternator. This project is probably going to take a while, just in the planning stage now. I'm going to try my best to get this done. Oh, I found some 120 volt 1000 watt PAR 64 bulbs for $25. Not sure what the lumen rating was. I wonder how different these are compared to the aircraft ones? Since these aren't made to be outside, I might try to find a way to seal them from the enviroment. Thanks

[Aaron1100us]

I'm thinking the easiest way would be to run a 2000w dc to ac inverter or two, but I think cost wise, it would be easier to use a 12 volt to 28 volt step up transformer that can handle the amps. I've looked and can't find anything. Anyone know where to get something like this? I've also found 28 volt, 310 amp alternators (government ones) but you have to call for prices, bet they aren't cheap. And that would be a pain in the butt to get that installed. I can get a mean green 12v 250 amp alternator for around $360. If I do that, I'll just need one or two 2000 watt DC to AC power converters. I found an outdoor housing for the par 64 bulb but its around $300. I might just have to try and make one myself. This might end up costing too much, I'll have to see. Less parts, the better.

Prices so far

28 volt 1000 watt PAR 64= $60-$100 X 2 (or 4) AIRCRAFT BULB
120v 1000 watt PAR 64= $25 x 2 (or 4) STAGE BULB
250 amp 12v alt= $360
310 amp 28v alt= $don't know
12v to 28v step up trans= $ can't find, don't know
2000w 4000w peak dc ac converter= $230-$280 X 2 if I use 4 bulbs (2 tight spot bulbs in center of light bar - 2 flood bulbs on outer part of light bar)
Other items= wires, home made bulb housing, might need to make bracket if I use the 28v alternator, light bar to mount lights on, switches, relays.

Might not ever do it but I'm going to try my best to make this possible

Other thoughts? I wonder if it would make more sense to use 500-600w bulbs? I wonder how kick butt those would be? I'm trying for insane, just hope thats what it ends up as. Just imagine what 4 (or even 2) 1000 watt PAR 64's would look like at night on top of a little white jeep

[Meduza]

you could use these as housings:
http://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_dts_par..._prodinfo.html

Yes i know that they are made for outdoor stages, but they are better IP rated that most things that you will be able to build yourself... (and they are just about $150, so you get 2 for $300)

Go for two FFN (6x12) bulbs in the middle and two FFR (12x28) bulbs on the sides, i think that more floody than that would waste lots of light up in the air...

Stage bulbs output less lumens than aircraft bulbs but aircraft bulbs lasts like 25hours (tested under a 20min on/off 50% duty cycle according to GE lightning) and costs the triple to change...

Stage bulbs lasts somewhere between 500 and 2000 hours depending on bulb and costs a lot less to change.

[Diesel_Bomber]

Hmm, interesting. If it was my Jeep, I think I'd go with a second high-output alternator and battery(or two), in addition to your stock electrical system, and the inverter/120vac bulbs route. Make sure the 250 amp alternator is 250 amps continuous or hot rated. If it bolts into your stock alternator location, I'll bet you a 2 liter of Dr. Pepper it's not. You might look into the Zena weldernators, they can be used as high output continuous duty 100% duty cycle alternators as well. Or go to the Prestolite/Leece Neville site and look for a big rig alternator that has the continuous current rating you need. Notice how big these puppies are? That's what it takes to keep that kind of power generating ability cool. The Auragen is supposed to put out a couple hundred amps of DC power. When I was interested in buying an Auragen and tried to contact them by phone and email, I got nowhere at all. Last option, go to your local rewinder and tell them what you're doing and what you need. They might laugh at you. Make sure they know you need it hot-rated.

With what this might cost, you might check into HID as well. You could likely run a big enough HID capsule with your stock electrical system. Good luck bud. I look forward to seeing how this comes together!

[Aaron1100us]

Yeah, I'd really like to add another alternator but I'm not sure I'll have enough room, sounds like these bad ass alternators are pretty good in size. I'll have to measure and see what room I have. Adding an extra battery or two would be no problem though. I'll look into those alternators that you mentioned. I might check into HID two. Wish I could use my dual 250w HID setup that I have on my aquaiurm. If I find that I can fit another alternator, I think I'll go that route, otherwise I'll just have to get a kick ass replacement for what I've got. If I can do HID, that would be great. Time to do some more research. Thanks

Oh, I posted something on an electrical forum about how to build or buy a very high amp 12v to 28v converter. If that isn't possible to build or buy, I have another idea but isn't really what I want to do. That is to use the 120v 1000w PAR 64 bulbs (incase I can't find a way to get 28v), then get one of those platforms that go into the trailer hitch and put a gas powered 4000w generator on it. Found a 4000W continuous 5000W peak generator for $469. Heck, thats just $100 more than a heavy duty alternator. And I wouldn't have to buy 2 $250 2000w 12v to 120v converters, plus the $360 250amp alternator. I'm going to have to do some checking and see exatly what the difference in lumens is between the 28v and 120v 1000W PAR 64 bulbs.

120v (stage) 1000w PAR 64= 12000 to 31000 lumens
28v (aircraft) 1000w PAR 64= must be more than 360000 lumens
28v (aircraft) 600w PAR 64= 360000 lumens

360,000 lumens X 4= 1,440,000 LUMENS wonder how bright that would be? And that is just with the 600w bulbs. I need to figure out how to go the 28 volt route

[Meduza]

Sorry, you MUST have looked at the wrong numbers or written a zero to much or two...

What you are saying is that a 28v Par64 600w having 360.000 Lumens...

360.000 lumens / 600w = 600 Lumens per watt...

That is... six times more effecient than good HID lighting...

[Aaron1100us]

Yep, check out the sylvania website. Check out the SL5622 bulb.

From website,

600 watt 28 volt PAR 64 Terminal base Airplane Halogen Sylvania Bulb
Light output - 360,000 lumens
600 watts
28 volts
Average life 100 hours

[VWTim]

If you're doing it to get light out on the Jeep I'd personally run 4 or 6Hella Rally 4000's off an alternator that's been rewound for more amperage. But if you're doing it for fun, and to build something. Those PAR lights seem interesting.

[Aaron1100us]

Those are pretty cool but I bet alot of other people have them, I want something different. Plus I like to build things. If this doesn't work out, I might end up getting something like those though. I'm going to try my best to figure out how to run some PAR 64's, might start out with two, then add more later if possible. Those things are going to draw some current and my only alternator option is to get a 12v 250amp (largest I've found). Or rig up some type of genset and hang that off the back of the trailer hitch.

[VWTim]

Sounds good, I understand the whole doing it the hard way for greater returns and more fun along the way. If you do go a standard route, the 4000's are amazing lights. And most people don't use them due to cost. Plus they're available as HID's.

Good luck in the project.

[Meduza]

Originally Posted by Aaron1100us

Yep, check out the sylvania website. Check out the SL5622 bulb.

From website,

600 watt 28 volt PAR 64 Terminal base Airplane Halogen Sylvania Bulb
Light output - 360,000 lumens
600 watts
28 volts
Average life 100 hours

Then sylvania has written something completly wrong on their website...

600 lumens / watt is IMPOSSIBLE with halogen bulbs (or any other lightning technic today).

filaments produces light when they are heated, the higher the temperature, the more light it does produce, but the filament can only be heated to the melting point (obviusly it melts after that point), the filament in the halogen bulb would melt even before we reach the land of 60lm/w. this discussion where covered in a thread in the "Incandescent" section about the new Osram IRC bulbs.

The most effecient lighting technic is Low-pressure sodium vapor, these are about 180lm/w, but you dont want to use these because of the totally monocrome yellow light...

It sounds like a genset is the simplest solution for you...

[Aaron1100us]

That does make sense about the wrong info about those lights. If that is the case, I wonder if the those 28v ones are more along the brightness of the 120v stage ones?

[Flummo]

One thing to remember is that a 12V car battery has a voltage around 14V while being charged, so two 12V batteries will give just about 28V, perfect for driving those 28V-lamps.

[Aaron1100us]

Thats true but under a heavy load (especially at idle), it will drop. If the rpms were up there, then it wouldn't drop as much. I might just have to get one of those bulbs and see how it performs with two 12v car batteries. And with a 250 amp alternator, it might work. But I'd have to rig some relays up to switch the batteries to run 28v. They probably wouldn't last long since I wouldn't be able to charge them while running the lights at 28v. Too bad I couldn't get a dual output 12v/28v alternator.

[Flummo]

How about using three batteries and PWM to get the right voltage?

[Aaron1100us]

good idea. I wonder if there would be any way to keep charging the batteries while the lights are on? I'm just thinking the batteries wouldn't last very long running 4000w of power. Or would they off of three batteries? Also, I wonder how long it would take to charge three batteries off the alt? Could I find a PWM that could handle running 4000 watts? It would be easy to put three batteries in the back and run some heavy battery cable up to the front.

I just found a 36 volt 30 amp battery charger. I know it wouldn't be able to keep up but if the three batteries would run the light for a decent amount of time, the charger would be just used to charge while the lights weren't on. What kind of run time do you think I could get with three 1000 cca automotive batteries? Would deep cycle be better? I'm really liking this idea. And I'll just use my 300 watt DC to AC converter that I allready have to run the 28v 30 amp charger. Any idea how long it would take to charge three batteries of a 30 amp 28v charger?

I'd like to find a way to charge them with the alt while they are on but don't know how that would work. Any ideas on that? Otherwise I'll just have to see how long the batteries would last by themselves. Thanks

[Aaron1100us]

Would a rheostat work? How much and where could I find a PWM that could do that? I'm thinking a house hold dimmer switch might work, what do you think?

[MoonRise]

Ummm, Aaron, trying to use a 300w DC-AC converter to run a 120v input 28v-30A output charger? Nope. You'd need approximately a 1000W Dc-AC converter to run that charger at load.

If you want a short burst (10 seconds or so, maybe 30 seconds max) of high current and then recharge the battery, use a 'regular' battery. If you want to draw gobs of current for a while before recharging, use a deep-cycle battery.

Whether the bulb is 28V or120V doesn't really matter from the power output side. 1000W is 1000W. Higher voltage just means you are using less amps for that power output. And less amps means less I^2xR losses in the wiring. Do you really want to run 8-gauge or bigger wire to -EACH- lamp independently for a 28V-1000W lamp? Even going the 120V-1000W route is going to need 14 or 12 gauge wire to -each- lamp.

Quickest and easiest way to power your proposed lighting will be the exterior generator. Get a 5000W rated generator, it should have at least four separate 20A circuits (one for each light). Wire one circuit per light. Then you just have to worry about the noise of the generator, fueling the generator, wiring up the lights, making sure the wires and connectors stay connected, etc.

[Meduza]

Aaron, yes, i think that sylvania wrote somenthing wrong there...

with the Q4559X bulb the LK14 was built by larryk and andrewwynn, 14k lumens from one 600w bulb...

A 1000w stage bulb is often about 20-25k lumens, a low-voltage-short-life aircraft bulb can propably push that up to 35k+ but i dont really know...

[Aaron1100us]

Ok, thanks. So it sounds like the best way to go would be to use a genterator and the 120 v lights. It would atleast be the cheapest. I was also looking at those Hella 4000 HID lights. What do you think the difference would be between 4 1000w 120v stage lights and 4 35w HID lights from Hella? The Hella lights are pretty pricey, $600 for one light setup.

If I use the stage lights

$25 per bulb,
$450 or so for a 4000w 5000w peak generator
$100 for cargo carrier to put generator on
$150 for each weather proof PAR 64 bulb housings
plus wires and extra stuff.

I'm pretty sure I could get this all done for under $1000 and have 4000 watts of light. I really wish I knew what those stage lights looked like lit up. Several years ago, I had an old 77 Ford F-250 with 11 inches of lift and 4 KC lights on top of a light bar. I'd turn that thing on and it would make the 1.5 acer yard infront of my parent's house look like it was daytime. I want something that would totally bow away those lights. If the anyone thinks 4 35w HID Hella lights would be brighter than 4 1000 watt PAR 64s, let me know, I might reconsider.

[Meduza]

Normaly you can say that HID is three times more effecient than halogen, so 4 35w HIDs would be equal to about 420w Halogen lightning, so about 1/10 of the lumen amount you would get from the 4*1000w stage lights.

[Diesel_Bomber]

Originally Posted by MoonRise

Do you really want to run 8-gauge or bigger wire to -EACH- lamp independently for a 28V-1000W lamp? Even going the 120V-1000W route is going to need 14 or 12 gauge wire to -each- lamp.

If you're going to run wire sizes like that you're going to get so much voltage drop that you might as well go with normal KC lights. I run 8awg wire to 100w headlights @ 12v. 8awg will be fine for 1000w @ 120v, but not @ 28v. Here is a voltage drop chart. 1000w @ 28v is ~35 amps. Remember you have to take into account the FULL wire run, positive and negative side. 10' of wire between your batteries/generator/power-generating-doohicky and the lights is actually a 20' run. Err on the side of overkill, always! According to the chart, 2awg cable wouldn't be out of line at all. Per 1000w 28v light, of course.

Hint: welding cable is superior to battery cable in all ways. Far more flexible(easier to work with, easier to run, easier to make connections, etc), far better insulation, readily available in many more gauges, and in the larger gauges it's cheaper too. Look up your local welding supply company.


HTH.

[Aaron1100us]

Thanks again for all the great replies. Welding cable is a good idea and would be easy to come by. I think I'm going to start out with two lights and see how that does. I'm thinking two medium flood lights on the outside of the light bar and if that works good, I'll put two spot in the center. Not sure if it will work but I'll probably start out with just one 2000 watt inverter and use stock alternator untill I'm able to save up for a high output one. It sounds like the 120v lights should have similar output to the 28 volt ones. Rigging up a 28 volt system seems like that would be alot of work and probably cost too much but could still probably somehow be done. I was interested in the generator but that probably wouldn't be to practical. I might add one extra battery, I'll have to see. It'll probably be a while before this is done. I'm still in the design phase but this is looking like a decent way to get this done. Another cool thing that I just realized is that I can add color filters to the light housing, hehehehe, green, red, yellow, blue. That would be interesting And with having a 2000 watt inverter, I wonder if I could run my 140 amp welder off of that?

Costs for this setup

$300 for 2 PAR 64 housings
$25-75 per 1000 watt PAR 64
$190 2000 watt continuous 4000 watt peak dc/ac converter
plus wires/ect
$369 250 amp mean green alt - will add later
$99 light bar
not too bad to start out with.

Think this all sounds ok?

Oh, I found a company that would build me a 28 volt 4000 watt converter, $3600, YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[InTheDark]

I kinda had the same idea to put some serious lighting on my vehicle. I really couldn't find a good, permanent cost effective way of doing it, but I did hook up a couple 36V 400W osrams just for fun. It was a temporary project, after calculating about how much work it would have been to make it even semi-permanent, I decided to just get some lightforces and HID's.

I used 3 deep cycle batteries hooked up in the series/parallel configuration. So I could run at 36V, but switch them in parallel to charge. The good thing about running higher voltage bulbs, is that your amperage goes down proportionally. At 36V, each bulb is only drawing about 12 amp, so a standard 30A relay is more than enough for each bulb. Even derating it for the higher voltage, it still worked fine, plus it allowed me to use smaller wire. I had purchased some 70A/80A relays and connectors specially for this project, but never used them. The only drawback is that you can not run the lights and charge the batteries at the same time, but I never thought I would be really using these lights for a long period of time anyway, most likey they would melt the housings. Since i had the batteries stored in the rear of the car and I was afraid of overloading the alternator, I ran the charging circuit from the rear power outlet plug, which was fused at 20A. so I know that after running the light for about 10 minutes, the batteries weren't low enough to draw too much current and blow a fuse or damage the alternator

A 2500 watt inverter might have worked with the 120V par 1000W bulbs, but I never got around to try it. An advantage of this method would be that you are dealing with higher AC voltages, so you don't have to deal with huge welding cable to provide the current path. Just look at a normal hair dryer or electric heater, those are usually around 1500 watts, but look at the size of the wire used for it. Now compare that to the cost and size of the welding cable you would need to use if that were 1200 watts at 12V, and you'll see the advantage of higher voltages.

If I were to get really serious about this project, I think I would stick with 36V bulbs, and look into the battery packs from some of the electric scooters and motorcycles that have become popular in the recent years. Most of those use 36V, 400-500W motors, so I would think that you could probably use it for a 600W bulb. I don't know how the charging setup is, but I would assume it uses standard 120V to charge it, so your charging circuit is half complete. Add an inverter to power it, and you're setup for some short term lighting.

I had considered some other ways of doing it, but cost and complexity kinda dampened my enthusiasm for the project. As other people pointed out, your alternator will not handle that kind of load for long, and you will need a few deep cycle batteries to power it. Buying and installing all that stuff in an already crowded vehicle just seemed like more trouble than it was worth. Even though people say I am addicted to light, there is a limit to how much I will spend just to have something that i will probably use very little. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, I really think you should because it would be really cool to see it, but realistically, are you willing to spend thousands of dollars on it and how often do you really think you are going to be using it?

Oh yeah, if you were being serious about using a gas generator, I recommend you stand next to one for a minute or two while it's running. Then picture that in a jeep, and I'm pretty sure you'll start considering another idea. Those things are LOUD!!! Good luck on the project and make sure to take pictures.

[Brock]

I would strongly recommend going the 120vac route. The wiring for 12v or 24v will cost a lot, I would guess over $1 a foot and you need 4 times what ever distance you need to run (2 wires for each light). Also routing the welding cable would be a nightmare.

The big question is how long do you intend to run the lights? Maybe 30 minutes or longer? If it is less then 30 minutes and you can have the car running I would suggest getting two 12v to 120vac 1500w inverters (cheaper and smaller then a single 3000w inverter) connect those to a second parallel battery being charged from the regular alternator. Then you can run smaller 14-2 wire to the two 1000w Par 64's. Also pars come in different beam widths, spot, vary narrow, narrow, medium, or wide. Again this depends on what or I should say how far away you want to light something up. If you know anyone in a well equipped theatre go there and they will likely have all of them for you to take a peek at. If it were me I would go with 2 medium or wide floods.

In a pinch you could just replace your starting battery for a deep cycle and use that one alone.

They also make a 3000w 120vac alternator, but they run about $4000, they are often used on construction trucks that double as a generator, but if you think a 160 amp alternator won't fit this is out of the question.

To sum it up
2 120vac Par 64 mediums ($50)
2 1500w inverters ($250 on ebay)
2 housing of your choice ($100-$600)
light bar of your choice

[Meduza]

If it where me and i just got 2 bulbs i would use NSP, maybe MFL bulbs if there was need for a wider beam (narrow spot or medium flood)

Anything with greater beam angle than a MFL will throw too much light up in the air that will be lost in my humble opinion...

If you are going for 4 later i would start off with 2 MFL and then add 2 VNSP bulbs later for the distance tasks.

You should also think of making the control for each lamp induvidial so you can turn them on or off separatly depending on your needs at the moment.

[Brock]

Hey good point you could get 4 lights and have two wide for near field, like 1/4 mile, completely flood the road in front of you or light up the second two VNSP's and light up objects a couple of miles away.

Also the beam shape from a typical theatrical PAR is very elongated, about 4 times wider then tall or vice versa. I actually did have two 500w wides mounted on my car a LONG time ago and with the bottles horizontal it made for extremely even front lighting with not to much going up.

[scott.cr]

FWIW, Powermaster modifies stock alternators to produce 200++ amps of current. They also build them in custom voltages but it adds a lot of $ to an already expensive product. (But cheaper than standalone generators and such.)

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/