Wife can't stand fluorescent bulbs' "daylight" color, coiled shape

[Paul_in_Maryland]

Last weekend I decided that it's time to kiss goodbye to incandescent lightbulbs. As a start, I ordered about 20 compact fluorescent bulbs, 13W to 40W. About half are 2700K, the other half, 5000K to 6500K (daylight).

Long story short: She absolutely hates the look of the 5000K-6500K lighting. I must use them only in closets, the garage, and outdoors.

I explained to her that the lighting she hates is the color of sunlight; she's been using warmish tungsten lamps so long, she's forgotten what natural lighting looks like. To no avail.

She also can't stand the bulbs' coiled shape. So wherever the bulb is visible, I must use a bulb short enough (and hence, less bright) to be out of sight. I've found only two compact fluorescents that share the globe shape of a tungsten bulb. One is a short 13W 2700K bulb from GE; the other is a 20W 2700K lamp that is too long for its intended use (in a chandelier).

Has anyone had a similar experience?

[LED BriCK]

I wish I could learn to like the daylight color, but to me the warm incan is more cozy. I have found that if I use the CF's behind a lampshade and/or in indirect lighting situations, it's alot more acceptable.

[turbodog]

Go down a little. Try some 4200K bulbs. There's a lot of difference between them and 5000+.

The trick is to change every single bulb in the entire house. The color will be consistent and she won't be able to tell.

[MoonRise]

Like turbodog said, change all the bulbs. Or at least all the bulbs lighting up areas that can be seen at the same time.

As an example, if there are two lights in a room and you leave one as an incandescent and change the other to a 'daylight' CFL, then there will be a HUGE and visible difference in the color temperatures and the CRI between the two bulbs. Usually to the 'detriment' of the CFL.

Something else is to have enough light in the room.

Another thing is to check the CRI of the CFLs. I am becoming more picky about the CRI and now am generally not really happy with fluorescents unless the CRI is 90+.

And another thing is to give your eyes and brain a little bit of time to 'recalibrate' to the new light color. Especially if the person has looked at the 'scene' for a while, they have a memory of how it is 'supposed' to look. Give the brain a chance to recalibrate to the new color temperature and unless some incans are still giving light then the brain should adjust to the new color temperature. If multiple color temperature light sources are visible at once though, the brain really can't recalibrate the view.

[jtr1962]

It's amazing to me how people can get so used to the bad light from incandescents that when you try a more natural light they hate it. I'm just the opposite of your wife. I've hated incandescents even as a kid. I always wondered why they couldn't give a whiter light like the sun did. I think most kids have a natural revulsion towards incandescent light but like bad food they actually get used to it, even prefer it, as they are exposed to it enough. It may also be because as you get older you tend to spend less time outdoors under natural light, thus getting more used to artificial light. I remember even preferring being under the absolutely horrid cool-white fluorescents of the day to being under incandescent. I've been using fluorescents exclusively in any areas under my control for the last 25+ years, mostly linear tubes. A few years ago I started the changeover to T8s and full-spectrum 5000K tubes. These are as close to natural sunlight as you're going to get these days.

Note that there is a big difference between sunlight (5000K) and daylight (6500K). Maybe it's mainly the daylight that your wife hates. The big problem with daylight is you need a lot of light in a room before it looks normal. If you only have one bulb then it can look dreary, kind of like an overcast day. The sunlight bulbs look better at low lighting levels. There may also be a color rendering issue. Perhaps your wife may not like cheaper 5000K CFLs but would be OK with the full spectrum variety (although these are more money and harder to find).

I'll second turbodog's suggestion-increase the color temperature in small increments. Home Depot does sell 3500K "bright white" bulbs. These aren't as depressingly yellow as incandescent or 2700K CFLs. They might be something you can both live with. When they start to go, move up to 4100K and after that to 5000K. Or maybe light one room with 5000K now and tell your wife to spend a few hours a day there for a while. My guess is her eyeballs will eventually make the adjustment and she'll realize how bad incandescent really is. Like I said in the beginning, I just find stories like this amazing. My sister's the same way. She made a remark when she visited us two weeks ago about how she "feels like a plant" under fluorescent light.

[Trashman]

I don't particularly care for the higher temperature, either. It ain't gonna kill me, but it's not my first choice. About her not liking the coil look--they also make CFLs in bulb shape (probably, just covered), though, they may not be available with the output you desire. I was able to sneak a couple of those in the bathroom without my mom noticing.

[Paul_in_Maryland]

Great answers, guys; very insightful.

I like the idea of using bulbs with a midway color temperature.

I didn't realize that 5100K and 6500K are noticeably different. My first "white" fluoro was 6500, and I agree: to my eyes, it seemed closer to 9000K than to 5000K. I think the crop that arrived yesterday were all between 5100 and 5500K.

MoonRise, you make an interesting point: CRI (color rendering index?) matters, too. I think all my bulbs rate between 83 and 84 in CRI. The "grow" bulbs that rate in the 90s must be better, but they cost more than I was hoping to spend, and they yield lower efficiencies, on the order of 50 lumens per watt rather than the 65 to 75 I prefer (for bragging rights).

As for letting my wife get used to white light: She is not one to give one of my ideas a chance. To her, first impressions are everything. If she doesn't like it, it goes. Because I'm reasonable, I'm reverting to warmer bulbs...but I'll never go back to incandescents (except in my flashlights, where I'm a steadfast hotwire).

[jtr1962]

Originally Posted by Paul_in_Maryland

I didn't realize that 5100K and 6500K are noticeably different. My first "white" fluoro was 6500, and I agree: to my eyes, it seemed closer to 9000K than to 5000K. I think the crop that arrived yesterday were all between 5100 and 5500K.

The color temperature on a lot of these cheaper CFLs is very loosely controlled. This seems especially true of the daylight variety where it's not uncommon to find ones which are 8000K or higher. Now I love high color temperature lighting but even I find these to be way too blue.

As for letting my wife get used to white light: She is not one to give one of my ideas a chance. To her, first impressions are everything. If she doesn't like it, it goes. Because I'm reasonable, I'm reverting to warmer bulbs...but I'll never go back to incandescents (except in my flashlights, where I'm a steadfast hotwire).

Well, you're a better man than me. I'm not married or even dating but if I were in a similar situation the wife would go, not the bulbs. Seriously, no way am I going to let my eyeballs go out of calibration and endure constant headaches for anyone, including a wife or significant other. Then again, doubtless such a person would have been in my house many times before marrying me and sooner or later if their preferences were different than mine I would have heard some comment like "What is it with those damned harsh white fluorescents you like?" I think the problem here is many people work during the day, and only see their homes lit up with artificial light. The get used to it looking a certain way and new lighting dramatically changes that look. Since I'm home most of the time, I know what the house looks like under natural daylight/sunlight. I strive to duplicate that look at night as well.

Just an observation, but I find it strange how some of the same people who complain vehemently about green-tinted Luxeons prefer to light their homes with strongly yellow-tinted light. Why is a yellow tint so much more acceptable to many than a green one or a blue one? I personally can't stand any color tint except for colored Christmas lights. It doesn't matter if the tint is purple, pink, yellow, blue, green, etc. Get too far off that 5000K to 5500K black body point and I'm not a happy camper.

[yuandrew]

I guess a lot of us are used to "warm" color temperatures from incandescant lamps which may explain why most CFLs you buy are 2700K-3000K color temperature. For myself, I've seemed to have gotten very used to the "Cool White" most fluorescent lamps put out so the fluorescent lamps I normally use in my own bedroom are actually that color temperature plus a 5000K CFL in a desk lamp. At lower light levels; it does somewhat give a bluish-gray appearance but if you have enough lights on to make the area as bright as a classroom or workshop, it seems to help make it closer to what you get at noon on a overcast day.

As for the "swirly" appearance; you should try putting the bulbs where you won't see the CFL-spiral directly (Many of my CFLs are the older ones with U shaped tubes which are somewhat noticable where they stick out beyond lamp shades. CFLs with globes or diffusers over the fluorescent tubes will probably look better and help diffuse the light so it dosen't glare as much. They are harder to find; bare spirals seem to be more common now but they are avaliable. The first CFL I got, a Lights of America "The Bulb", that I purchased in 97 or 98 had a glass cover over the tubes to make it resemble an oversized incandescant bulb. My uncle liked that light since the glass cover helped diffuse the light so there was less glare from it compared to the bare tubed CFLs he had.

Home Depot recently switched it's "Commercial Electric" CFL branding to the "N:Vision" branding but the bulbs themselves still appear to be made by the same manufacturer. I just noticed that they color-code the packages to help identify the color temperatures; CFLs with Green packages would be around 2700K (Warm White) and Blue would be something like Daylight. Red was listed as "Bright White" and somewhere in between; I'm guessing around 3500K.

[BVH]

I fully agree with JTR. I hated the 2700 and the 5000 were too stark. The Sylvania 13 Watt, 3500K, small twist lamp - I found it in the package that was entitled full spectrum or something similar and it has some rainbow coloring on part of it, is a fantastic color. When I work in my office and turn them on, I actually feel happier. I find the older I get, the more sunlight I crave and these lamps satisfy that craving indoors. It is close to actually being outside. Buy one and try it.

[DM51]

My wife is EXACTLY the same. She took an instant dislike to these bulbs and now there's nothing I will be able to do to change her mind. Maybe women are more sensitive to colour temperature indoors.

To be fair to them, there are a couple of features of these bulbs which are quite annoying.

First, they definitely don't seem as powerful as they claim to be. They claim 20w fluor = 100w incan for brightness. Certaiinly doesn't seem that way (maybe because a lot of the power is going into the increased blue component of the spectrum?)

Second, I don't know about the rest of you but the delay when you switch them on manages to catch me out every time, even after having had the bulb there for 6 months. For just that instant I wonder whether the power is out or the bulb has failed. Then it comes on and I mentally kick yourself that I forgot the delay. The other pain about the delay is that it is a complete giveaway that you've changed the bulb from incan, so the wife starts honking about it straightaway.

Bring on LED lighting, I say. From what I gather the technology isn't quite there yet, but no doubt it's coming.

[pedalinbob]

LOL! The delay trips me up too...and, there is about a 60 second warm-up, which is a little odd.
It is difficult to place fluoros everywhere, because we frequently turn some lights on and off...and I believe that CFL's don't like lots of cycling.

My wife didn't like it when I tried changing to fluorescents. We use the Reveals almost everywhere, except the garage and basement, where fluorescents are used.
I have some GE bulbs in the basement, and they are pretty incan-like.

We also use an 11w fluoro in the oven hood, which we leave on when we are going to be coming in late. It is a Lights of America, and it has a pretty ugly color rendering...but, it saves energy.

I am trying to convert our outdoor lights to fluorescent, but have run into a bunch of issues.
What is wrong with manufacturers (of photocells and photocell equipped fixtures)? Why do most of them use photocells which are incompatible with fluoros? For an extra few dollars, an appropriate photocell can be used which will allow much more flexibility.

Just an FYI, for those that are interested in placing photocell-controlled fluoros in outside fixtures:

Maxlite makes bulbs and photocell equipped fixtures. BUT, they do not use screw base bulbs. This is a downer for me. I like the idea of the flexibility of a screw base: in a pinch, I can get a bulb (incan or fluoro) anywhere.

Intermatic makes a photocell which works with fluorescents. NE200C. BUT...it is 6" long, so it will not likely fit into most fixtures. What were they thinking???

American Tack makes a "programmable" photocell which is compatible with fluoros. BUT! It has a timer, which can be programmed by holding your finger over the photocell...1hr through 12 hours.
Two problems here.
1. This is nearly impossible to do when it is sitting 10" inside a wall mounted coach lantern.
2. 12 hrs is NOT long enough. In the winter, it is dark from 5pm to about 8am! WHAT were they thinking?!?!?

There are some other companies that make fluoro-friendly photocells (Don-Ell), but they are hard wired. I CAN do it...but it will require a bit of extra work...and, some are very expensive...and ugly. Wifey has veto power...

[Phaserburn]

Hm. My wife likes the GE Daylight Fluoros, especially in our bedroom. The daylight color is less fatiguing, it seems. I still use incans in all locations where the light will be flipped on and off, like closets and the garage.

[DM51]

Originally Posted by Phaserburn

My wife likes the GE Daylight Fluoros, especially in our bedroom. The daylight color is less fatiguing, it seems.

You lucky dog, you. A wife who likes to be active in the bedroom. She must look good in daylight too, or she'd be using a dimmer ....

[Phaserburn]

Originally Posted by DM51

You lucky dog, you. A wife who likes to be active in the bedroom. She must look good in daylight too, or she'd be using a dimmer ....

I certainly think so! When warmer color temps are desired, we go low-tech... candles. Sometimes, they just can't be beat.

[turbodog]

I've been through all this before and can save you guys some trouble.

Find some 4200k bulbs. This usually matches the 4' fluorescent bulbs in color. It is a nice white color (cool white) w/o being too harsh.

I doubt you will find them in retail locations. My retail experience is usually 2700, 3200, and 5000+.

The ones I bought, almost $250 worth, are instant on and don't have the annoying warm up problem common to these type bulbs.

[picard]

that is bizarre. I used to incandescent lamps all my life until I switch to florescent daylight lamp.

I realized that I have been living in the cave for too long. The new full spectrum daylight lamp is far superior to my old incandescent lamp. I love the new lamp.

Your wife just have to get accustom to the new reality that the world of light isn't created with yellowish tint. Your wife has been disconnected from the matrix now. She is seeing the real earth created by humans.

[Paul_in_Maryland]

Originally Posted by turbodog

I've been through all this before and can save you guys some trouble.

Find some 4200k bulbs. This usually matches the 4' fluorescent bulbs in color. It is a nice white color (cool white) w/o being too harsh.

Thanks! I'll look for these (on the Web).

[Paul_in_Maryland]

Originally Posted by picard

Your wife just have to get accustom to the new reality that the world of light isn't created with yellowish tint. Your wife has been disconnected from the matrix now. She is seeing the real earth created by humans.

[Diesel_Bomber]

I'm so much more thankful for my wife after reading these posts. Of course, I had my house switched over to CFL's before she moved in...........

[PhotonWrangler]

I hate the cold look of higher color temperature fluorescents also! Fleshtones look ghastly under those lamps and they present an overall "clinical" appearance to a room. They're ok for a workbench area but terrible for general home lighting IMO. I'll take lower output with warmer color rendering any day.

[TedTheLed]

dimmable fluorescents will last through a brown-out--

3. Can I use a compact fluorescent light bulb with a dimmer switch?
4. Can I use a CFL in applications where I will be turning the lights on/off frequently?
5. Can I use a CFL in applications involving vibration such as a ceiling fan or garage door opener?
6. What should I do if I break a CFL bulb?
for the answers:

http://www.gelighting.com/na/busines...faqs/cfl.htm#3

btw on Mythbusters the other day they hooked up al kinds of light bulbs and switched them off and on every two minutes. They all burned out within 6 weeks, except the LEDs..

[iced_theater]

When I first put in my 6500K bulbs I didn't like them, they were way too blue in color. After a couple of days my eyes adjusted and I find the light to be much better for color rendition.

[Martini]

I can see from both sides of the fence on this one. I like daylight a lot, in the daytime. I have this crazy notion of replacing all of my 6500k lights with tubular skylights, and only using artificial light at night. But at night, the lights can all be 2700k and I'll be happy (except in the kitchen, I need better slightly better CRI there). As for the spiral shape of most CFLs, I've always liked it. I remember just staring at my first CFL bulb years ago, thinking, "wow, it looks so cool." I'm a nerd.

I think you will find that most people are more comfortable with warm white lighting, and that your fascination with lighting technology has made you more receptive to the previously unfamiliar CT. I'm sure that is the case with me. But in the end, I recognize that we are wired to time our sleep cycles based on shorter wavelengths of light. The recently discovered third photoreceptor allows some blind people to adjust their circadian rhythms with blue light! Abolishing cold lighting on this premise is, of course, a conscious effort. There is another, more insidious reason for the general populace's negative reaction to high CTs.

It turns out that there is both a physiological and a psychological cause. The former is the well-understood Purkinje effect. The latter is related, although the extent of this relation and the number of other mitigating factors is unknown (or at least not yet agreed upon). In short, various researchers have found that people are most comfortable with lighting when its color temperature and intensity fall within a certain range. The Kruithof Comfort Curve is a rough guide to this. This page gives a decent physical representation of the curve. As you can see, the warmer the light, the less necessary to create a comfortable environment. As you increase the color temperature, you must also increase the intensity of the light to maintain the same comfort level. Just as warm light at a very high intensity seems unnatural, cold light at low intensity can be a strange, even uncomfortable, sensation. In college, I used to light my dorm room late at night with a single 13w 6500k CFL. One of my friends told me that it made my room look like a mad scientist's laboratory. I thought it was just the gutted electronics everywhere.

For many people, artifical lighting is the only lighting they see most of the time. In this case, there is rarely sufficient light to make high CTs comfortable. Where there is ample daylight, however, you will find that a few cold fluorescent lights go practically unnoticed. With proper levels of illumination, I think you will find that even mixing CTs is possible without offending the other dwellers (it has worked for me, anyway). It's something to try, anyway.

[jtr1962]

Originally Posted by Martini

As you increase the color temperature, you must also increase the intensity of the light to maintain the same comfort level. Just as warm light at a very high intensity seems unnatural, cold light at low intensity can be a strange, even uncomfortable, sensation.

This is certainly true, but given the efficiency of today's fluorescents there's really no reason homes have to be lit like caves. For example, I have a 4x32W T8s in my 10'x11' bedroom. That's roughly 10,000 lumens accounting for fixture losses and ballast drive levels, or close to 100 lm/ft². Power input is only about 111 watts, or not much more than the typical 100 watt incandescent used to typically light such a room, yet overall light level is easily 10 times as much (remember that the shades and indirect lighting of incandescent table lamps easily reduce the light output by half). High color temperatures look perfectly natural here. Fact is for health and visual reasons we really should aim for at least 50 lumens per square foot, not the 3 to 10 you typically see in many homes. With more efficient LED lighting on the horizon it will only get easier to light homes brightly and still save energy. It's a known fact that people get depressed if they're not exposed to sunlight or something similar. Lighting homes brightly with high-color temperature lighting can help alleviate this problem. Using a single 13 watt CFL or 60 watt incandescent in an average size room might be fine as a night light but it's a joke for regular lighting. People will actually try to read in rooms lit like that, and then complain of eyestrain.

Another factor is placement of lighting. Table lamps give a very unnatural light. You have both a point source and upwards facing shadows. This is unlike anything you'll encounter in nature. Chandeliers aren't much better. The best lighting is as close to the ceiling as possible, and as diffuse as possible, to duplicate skylight. Luminous ceiling tiles would be ideal. One or more fluorescent fixtures with 4 foot or 8 foot tubes is almost as good. The ultimate test to see if lighting is properly distributed is to hold a pen or pencil vertical on a desk. There should be no shadows. Given the combination of poor light distribution, low light levels, and low color temperature in most homes it's not surprising people get eyestrain, feel depressed, and have trouble sleeping. It's a shame that doctors aren't more aware of the contribution of lighting to overall health. Even worse is that people actually worry about the asthetics of a light source (i.e. the fixture has to be "pretty") thanks to the idiotic trends set by decorators. Actually, the fixture should be as unobtrusive as possible for best lighting, with the ideal being luminous ceiling tiles which is in essence no fixture at all.

[2xTrinity]

What I would reccomend instead of going to cool white is to pick a color temperature that is more moderate, such as 3500k. That's the temp I've used for CFLs being used as task lights -- which provides truer color, and much better contrast for reading or working than the old yellowish incandescent flood lamps they replaced, yet it still is a fairly warm color temp so it won't look too out of place compared to standard warm lighting

Right now I only like the 2700k fluorescent lamps that are lower wattage for use in hallway lights, or ambient lights, which goes along with the point already mentioned about warm looking better under low illumination levels.

[Ken_McE]

To chip in my .02 cents worth:

Women tend to see colors better than men. It's an anatomical thing, they're not just being fussy about some imaginary difference. To them it's obvious. Harmony in the house is worth more than any light bulb. If you can gently persuade her over to the light side (as per some of the above) that's fine. If she's adamant, then just suck it up and put in Edison bulbs. Her being happy is more important than your being right. As a fallback postion, maybe she'd like the "Reveal" bulbs??

DM51:
First, they definitely don't seem as powerful as they claim to be. They claim 20w fluor = 100w incan for brightness. Certaiinly doesn't seem that way (maybe because a lot of the power is going into the increased blue component of the spectrum?)

You need to approach the manufacturers claims with caution. They will lie H^H^H^ I mean exagerate if they think they can get away with it. I think the "no-name" manufacturers are the worst, because they have no reputation to lose. A twenty watt CFL is unlikely to compare with a one hundred watt incan, but they will say that it does. Then you wonder why it seems so dark in the hallway. Usually you can get around this by checking the output of the bulb in lumens and comparing to the incan. bulb in lumens.

[Paul_in_Maryland]

This has been the single most useful thread I've read in my three years in CPF! Everyone's point of view has been fascinating, valuable, and instructive. Thank you all.

Today I received four 20W (1280-lumen, 90-watt equivalent) compact fluorescent spiral lamps by LongStar. They are 5000K and billed as "day light, full spectrum." As luck would have it, my daughter's bathroom was due to have its four over-the-sink, diffused incans replaced.

Let me tell you, the lighting is absolutely like daylight! I couldn't tell where the sunlight coming through the window ended and the Longstar light began. I found myself smiling as though waking to a bright sun.

I'll let you know what my daughter thinks. I'm hoping my wife will warm to these lights. They've made me appreciate that there's more to consider when choosing a fluorescent than lumens per watt.

If the eBay listing is no longer available, here's the vendor's eBay store (Discount Bulbs).

[Mark_Larson]

If I may dig up this old thread...

I think its very dependent on the person. I and my girlfriend both grew up with fluorescent lights being used in the living area and incandescent being used in the kitchen/bathrooms, and even now, incandescent really throws me off. We both prefer fluorescent light - 4100K with about 60-70 CRI is what you will find anywhere and we both vastly prefer it to the equivalent in incandescents. 5000K and 6500K is even better, with 6500K being the best if used properly - ie, it is the only lighting in the room. Otherwise, it looks very blue since most people tend to confuse the 2700K and below of incandescent bulbs with "white."

Even GE Reveal bulbs are too yellow - two 100W bulbs are not able to provide all the light i want, and I believe its because they're so yellow. Brightness + low color temperature doesn't mix. I think there's a lot of truth in jtr1962's post.

I have to take issue with Ken's post - i haven't read anything that suggests that females have superior color rendering abilities, and its just a sense of "follow the herd" which makes a lot of people want to have the same lighting as everyone else. People are used to a certain way of life, and abruptly changing that isn't going to work. I hope your wife likes the new bulbs, but even if not, you should put your foot down and tell her the advantages and work out a compromise which doesn't put your preferences (and bulbs!) in the toilet.

[Ken_McE]

>Mark_Larson:

>I have to take issue with Ken's post - i haven't read anything that
>suggests that females have superior color rendering abilities

It's a matter of anatomy. There is only so much room inside of one human eye. That room gets divided between cones and rods. You want more rods, you cut back on cones and vice versa. Women tend to have more cones, the color sensitive cells. Men tend to have more rods, the low-light sensitive cells. This means women have the edge for seeing color and detail, and men have the edge for seeing in the dark.

If you compare the relative distribution of rods and cones for women as a whole with men as a whole, you will get two similar bell curves. The curves will overlap but have different peaks. You will get a few men with superior color vision and a few women with superior night vision. The odds however, are that the O.P.s wife sees color better than he does. There is probably a social component too, but I wouldn't know about that.