L1P High CRI(93) Seoul P4

[TexLite]

I have been noticing the tint more and more on my LED lights lately,and had tried a number of different tint bins from different manufacturers,in an attempt to find something neutral,but with decent color rendition.Then when McGizmo started the High CRI and Sundrop threads it clinched the deal.I've missed a couple of group buys(work) for the Nichia's Mcgizmo has so I ordered some of the High CRI Seoul emitters and have put them in a number of hosts to try out,one is a Fenix L1P modded with the RV7 3 level driver and High CRI LED.I wanted to share my initial impressions.

First,the tint I got were a little warmer than I had originally wanted,Natural White SRO,but the color rendition is awesome.The tint seems to be a higher than a standard 75w incandescent,but still a little warm.It is hard to describe how much of a difference there is between these and the lower CRI emitters.Reds and skin tones are the most apparent difference,with green close behind.There is no tint shift at all when switching from a conventional light source to these LED's.

The output is lower than the latest flux bins in pure white,60-70 lumens at 350ma for the bin I got(S2),still decent though.

I am very pleased with the outcome,though I would prefer a higher color temp,STO would be great.

Be advised,it becomes harder to accept the lower CRI of other emitters the longer you use these,though output does trump CRI at times.As McGizmo says,sometimes it is better to see something well than barely or not at all with high CRI.

Mandatory beamshots...though these don't quite relate to what I am seeing.Exposure adjusted on some to compensate brightness.

L1P w/ High CRI P4


Control 75w Incandescent


High CRI Seoul/L1P


Cree R2 WG


Lux-V VO


SWO Seoul P4


SRO vs WG


SRO vs Rebel


SRO vs WG


SRO vs Rebel


High CRI Seoul Mag


Cree R2 WG


Rebel (unknown bin)


High CRI Seoul Mag


Cree R2 WG


Rebel (unknown bin)


Rebel vs SRO


SRO vs WG



The Seoul can be driven to 800ma for reasonable output,and should work with existing Optics and Reflectors.

Thanks,
Michael

[ICUDoc]

Thanks for the beamshots Michael. I wonder if you can show side-by-side shots of the high-vs-standard CRI LEDs? Also where did you get the high CRI Seouls- it will be interesting to try a few of them... Thanks again for an interesting and alternative view of high CRI LEDs.

[holeymoley]

You don't have a side-by-side shot with a rebel by any chance?

Also, +1 on the link to purchase one of these...I have a project this moght be right for.

[StarHalo]

Wow, some great results there, and good photography too, getting color rendition comparison photos is quite a chore.

I look forward to a comparison between these High CRI emitters, it'll be interesting to see who does true color best.

You might consider building a number of these for sale; I know I'd definitely be interested in a modest-cost High CRI unit, as would pretty much everyone who knows about the SunDrop but can't afford one..

[TexLite]

Originally Posted by ICUDoc

I wonder if you can show side-by-side shots of the high-vs-standard CRI LEDs?

Sure,I'll try tonight.What did you have in mind?The reason I ask is the stuff I've taken shots with would make it difficult to do a side by side,I would have to set up two of everything,and the flowers aren't consistent.Unless you meant whitewall.I'm willing to try whatever though,I might have something with colors that would be wide enough to do a side by side,which emitters?

Originally Posted by ICUDoc

Also where did you get the high CRI Seouls- it will be interesting to try a few of them...

I can get you some and forward them to try to save you some shipping,or you can order them from Mouser.Search for S42180,make sure they're S2,they have S1 in stock as well.

Originally Posted by holeymoley

You don't have a side-by-side shot with a rebel by any chance?

I'll work on that tonight.

Originally Posted by holeymoley

Also, +1 on the link to purchase one of these...I have a project this moght be right for.

Mouser has them,search S42180,make sure they're S2.

Originally Posted by StarHalo

Wow, some great results there, and good photography too, getting color rendition comparison photos is quite a chhore.

You might consider building a number of these for sale; I know I'd definitely be interested in a modest-cost High CRI unit, as would pretty much everyone who knows about the SunDrop but can't afford one..

Thanks,yes it is difficult to capture exactly what my eyes see.

I was planning on building some of these for sale,but I was unsure about demand.

Thanks,
Michael

[TexLite]

Consolidated posts,see above.

[ICUDoc]

Great thanks for the responses. I imagined a shot that illuminated two parts of the same object with light from two different LEDs, so as to eliminate any chance of different white balance or exposure causing a subtle change. Or one photo of two identical groups of objects lit by two different LEDs. But what you have told and shown us so far is great, thanks.

[2xTrinity]

Do you have any comparisons between this and a Q2 5A Cree chip, which is also neutral white (4000-4300k), and in my experience renders scenery similar to your High CRI Seoul. I'd like to know these emitters compare, and since the color temps appear to be about the same, such a comparison would be a true CRI comparison. When comparing sources with two different color temps CRI doesn't really apply.

For exmaple, check out this image here from Dereelight: WC vs 5A tint
from this page: http://www.dereelight.com/module-list.htm

by the way, This is where I've been getting my Neutral white chips, and is the only place I know of to buy these emitters for cheap at the moment. I've been buying those modules, then extracting the drivers and LEDs to use for other projects.

Where did you get the Seoul emitters? In the near future I plan to replace all my LEDs in all my lights with neutral chips, and as of now I only have been able to get those Crees in neutral white. Future projects of mine will primarily be using Neutral white MC-Es.

[TexLite]

Originally Posted by 2xTrinity

Do you have any comparisons between this and a Q2 5A Cree chip, which is also neutral white (4000-4300k), and in my experience renders scenery similar to your High CRI Seoul. I'd like to know these emitters compare, and since the color temps appear to be about the same, such a comparison would be a true CRI comparison. When comparing sources with two different color temps CRI doesn't really apply.

by the way, This is where I've been getting my Neutral white chips, and is the only place I know of to buy these emitters for cheap at the moment. I've been buying those modules, then extracting the drivers and LEDs to use for other projects.

As I understand it,a warmer tint may look better,but still dosen't necessarily mean a higher CRI.
Cree for instance list the CRI of their Warm White (2600k-3700k) as 80.
And the Cool and Neutral White (3700k-10,000k) as 75.
Thats from the XR-E Datasheet.
These SRO Seouls's are listed as 93.
LukeA said Cree quotes that some of their new household lighting will have CRI's in the 90's,I'm waiting on further info,it sounds interesting.

I dont have any of the Neutral White XR-E's yet,but do planning on getting some in the future,as they are now available in Q3 flux bin.The Q2's are also available as bare emitters from a couple of different sources,both overseas and domestic.The 4000k-4500k is actually the range I wanted,but If you look at the datasheet,the SRO is lower,around 3700k.I would still be in the same boat as far as comparing different temps with the 5A Cree's.I understand that comparing the CRI of different temps isnt exactly accurate,but it does illustrate what one sees in realworld usage.

Still,I am eager to test these against some of the Neutral XR-E's,I think output will be about the same,the max current for temps below 5000k is 700ma,which is around 1.7 times flux at 350ma.

Originally Posted by 2xTrinity

Where did you get the Seoul emitters? In the near future I plan to replace all my LEDs in all my lights with neutral chips, and as of now I only have been able to get those Crees in neutral white. Future projects of mine will primarily be using Neutral white MC-Es.

Mouser has them here,http://www.mouser.com/Search/Product...52bc8PfQ%3d%3d
These are SRO's,I'm still looking for a higher color temp.

Side by Side and Rebel beamshots added to the mix.

Thanks,
Michael

[ICUDoc]

Thanks for the side-by-sides. The SRO does give a more realistic, organic look especially to the reds, oranges and browns...

[2xTrinity]

Originally Posted by TexLite

As I understand it,a warmer tint may look better,but still dosen't necessarily mean a higher CRI.
Cree for instance list the CRI of their Warm White (2600k-3700k) as 80.
And the Cool and Neutral White (3700k-10,000k) as 75.
Thats from the XR-E Datasheet.
These SRO Seouls's are listed as 93.
LukeA said Cree quotes that some of their new household lighting will have CRI's in the 90's,I'm waiting on further info,it sounds interesting.

Understood. My reason for wanting to see a comaprison is to see what the difference between 75CRI Neutral White and 93 CRI Neutral white is in real-life, with CRI being the only variable different between them.

As far as the warmer LEDs looking better, that's an intersting phenomenon. In my experience I've found lights to be more pleasing as they approach 4000k. It's just that the lights right AT 4000k up to this point have always been bad (eg "cool white" fluorescent), so I've settled on either 5000k or 3500k for home lighting. The prospect of both High CRI and what I believe is an optimal color temperature is very interesting.

I know for example that for exmple people have been willing to pay a premium to buy neodymimum-doped incans, which are only 75 CRI and less efficient than 100 CRI unfiltered incans, due to better subjective appearance. There is talk of coming up with a "Light Quality Index" to replace the CRI that is based more on psychological research on people's preferences, than simply the RMS difference between a light source and the blackbody line.

I dont have any of the Neutral White XR-E's yet,but do planning on getting some in the future,as they are now available in Q3 flux bin.

If you're referring to the ones at Cutter, IIRC those are 4A Bin, so they're actually 5200k and overlap with the WH bin of the Cool Whites, though with a balanced white point, where the WH's are greenish.

The Q2's are also available as bare emitters from a couple of different sources,both overseas and domestic.The 4000k-4500k is actually the range I wanted,but If you look at the datasheet,the SRO is lower,around 3700k.I would still be in the same boat as far as comparing different temps with the 5A Cree's.I understand that comparing the CRI of different temps isnt exactly accurate,but it does illustrate what one sees in realworld usage.

I didn't realize those were only 3700k. If that's the case, It might be interesting to see a comparison with a highly overdriven incan, which can reach 3700k (just before instaflash) with a CRI 100. Differences should be almost impossible to distinguish, assuming you have the same beam profile.

By the way thanks for the reply and doing the beamshots. This is a very intersting subject, needless to say.

[saabluster]

Originally Posted by 2xTrinity

If you're referring to the ones at Cutter, IIRC those are 4A Bin, so they're actually 5200k and overlap with the WH bin of the Cool Whites, though with a balanced white point, where the WH's are greenish.

Not a big deal but those are actually 3A Q3s at Cutter.

[2xTrinity]

Originally Posted by saabluster

Not a big deal but those are actually 3A Q3s at Cutter.

I was wrong on the number, but correct about the CCT, see the binning datasheet: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=re...fORI74-UTCsWcA

[TexLite]

Originally Posted by 2xTrinity

Understood. My reason for wanting to see a comaprison is to see what the difference between 75CRI Neutral White and 93 CRI Neutral white is in real-life, with CRI being the only variable different between them.

Gotcha,that would indeed be interesting.Maybe we can work something out.

Originally Posted by 2xTrinity

As far as the warmer LEDs looking better, that's an intersting phenomenon. In my experience I've found lights to be more pleasing as they approach 4000k. It's just that the lights right AT 4000k up to this point have always been bad (eg "cool white" fluorescent), so I've settled on either 5000k or 3500k for home lighting. The prospect of both High CRI and what I believe is an optimal color temperature is very interesting.

Thats interesting,my experience with the warm Cree's is limited,but these seem too warm to me,thats the reason I was looking for a higher temp.What do you think about the 5A's?I was thinking about getting some of those to try.

Originally Posted by 2xTrinity

If you're referring to the ones at Cutter, IIRC those are 4A Bin, so they're actually 5200k and overlap with the WH bin of the Cool Whites, though with a balanced white point, where the WH's are greenish.

I was,and I had missed that.

Originally Posted by 2xTrinity

I didn't realize those were only 3700k. If that's the case, It might be interesting to see a comparison with a highly overdriven incan, which can reach 3700k (just before instaflash) with a CRI 100. Differences should be almost impossible to distinguish, assuming you have the same beam profile.

What did you have in mind,I'm open to suggestions.

Originally Posted by 2xTrinity

By the way thanks for the reply and doing the beamshots. This is a very intersting subject, needless to say.

Originally Posted by ICUDoc

Thanks for the side-by-sides. The SRO does give a more realistic, organic look especially to the reds, oranges and browns...

Thanks to you guys as well, I appreciate the input.We all benefit from this type of discourse.

Thanks,
Michael

[StarHalo]

Originally Posted by TexLite

I was planning on building some of these for sale,but I was unsure about demand.

Are you kidding?! You wouldn't be able to keep up.. Anyone who has ever admired the SunDrop and already owns a few flashlights would be your prime demographic, which is, oh, roughly most of CPF... It'll come down to how much time you have and how much money you're willing to make

I'd be in for ~$80 for a ~5000K 100CRI unit, max lumens isn't a concern so long as you keep the three level driver.

[TexLite]

Originally Posted by StarHalo

Are you kidding?! You wouldn't be able to keep up.. Anyone who has ever admired the SunDrop and already owns a few flashlights would be your prime demographic, which is, oh, roughly most of CPF... It'll come down to how much time you have and how much money you're willing to make

I'd be in for ~$80 for a ~5000K 100CRI unit, max lumens isn't a concern so long as you keep the three level driver.

The catch with building a lot of these is the driver,this version of the RV7 is out of production.The same design is available from some other sources,but its the 20 mode version and 17mm.The second run RV7's were 16mm,which fit the L1P,and I want to hang on to the 3 level stock I have at the moment.

The second hurdle would be finding these emitters in a higher color temp,I'm working on that though...

If I do build a couple,I'll let you know.

Thanks,
Michael

[waTom]

This is awesome!
I'd be in for 1 high CRI L1P!

[discoverEDC]

TexLite, the high CRI seoul appears to like the L1P's reflector, did you file the back down 0.5 mm per the usual for SSC's or is it still original? What other reflectors have you used with them and what kind of results have you had?

I also have a 3 level RV7 driver, can you estimate the number of lumens coming out the front end?

Thanks.

Walt

[TexLite]

Hi Walt,

Yes,the emitter works very well with the stock smooth reflector.Its a nice large smooth hotspot,and blends the tint well.Its not a thrower,but for this type of light it works well.

I did cut it down,but I dont know if I'll do it again on a few more I plan on doing.The reason is you end up cutting the lip off the rear of the reflector,that means the pill ends up compressing the emitter,probably not a big deal as long as you dont over-torque it.Also,if you cut off too much,you run into contact issues.

I've tried these emitters with several different reflectors,and the L1P is the best so far.

An OP Mag does OK.I've got one with boost driver running about 800ma and its a good versatile light.

The MiniMag LED makes a good host,but you can see a lot of tint variance with a smooth reflector.Sputtering would probably greatly improve it.I put some diffuser material under the lens to make it totally flood.Makes a great inspection light,especially in electrical panels and such.I wouldn't recommend it without sputtering the reflector or using a diffuser.

With some tweaking,it will probably work with the LxT v2.0 with the Rebel reflectors,output on a single cell is just a little over 300ma,on a two cell between 700ma-800ma if memory serves me correctly.It would make a good two-level host,I can try one if anyone needs the info.

As far as output,according to the chart below,if we assume around 600ma,the datasheet says ~1.6 times flux at that current x 65 lumens avg would be 104 emitter lumens,15%-20% optical losses would put it around 80-85 lumens out the front for most of the run on max.



Hope that helps,

-Michael

[discoverEDC]

Have you tried a McR-20S or a McR-18S?

[TexLite]

I haven't with this LED.Though I'd imagine it would be a pretty much perfect beam,same as the other P4's.

I was going to put a McR18s in,but in the high CRI Mag I have,when you tighten the beam up,you get a really bright,blinding hotspot,which is almost counter productive to this type of light.I like the smooth hotspot with the standard reflector,because it makes the most use of the this Seouls strong suit,CRI.For me,the main reason for using this LED in certain applications is the high CRI,which suggest use at semi close range,something the stock reflector lends itself well to.

For high output,I would use the McR's with the higher flux bins,where high flux is their strong suit,and also where these LED's are weak.To me,its about capitalizing on each LED's most desired trait.

I'm planning on building an L1P with an RV7 and U2SWOH,it will without a doubt get the McR18s,because in that setup I would want max brightness with a tighter beam with more throw,and that combo will work Great.

In short,I'm sure it will produce a fantastic beam,I'm just not sure how that beam will work close-up.

Thanks,
Michael

[discoverEDC]

I appreciate your thoughts. I can't do a build for a couple of months but when I take a shot at it I'll keep you experience in mind. I'm thinking about overdriving the emiter you used with about 900-950 mA and a MOP reflector. Hopefully with the result of about 100 Lum out the front with middling throw and a broad hotspot and bright spillbeam(that would be the maximum on a multi-level driver). We'll see how it turns out. I'll post to this thread when I have some results.

Walt

[tebore]

I reread your thread today and it really inspired me to give these seouls a try.

I have a few spare U2 bin P4s. If you guys are willing to trade for them I'd be happy to work something out. I'd love to stuff one of these high CRIs in another classic light; the HDS EDC.

Shoot me a PM if you need a few U2 Bin P4s and have some extra high CRI P4s.

[TexLite]

Originally Posted by discoverEDC

I appreciate your thoughts. I can't do a build for a couple of months but when I take a shot at it I'll keep you experience in mind. I'm thinking about overdriving the emiter you used with about 900-950 mA and a MOP reflector. Hopefully with the result of about 100 Lum out the front with middling throw and a broad hotspot and bright spillbeam(that would be the maximum on a multi-level driver). We'll see how it turns out. I'll post to this thread when I have some results.

Walt

Your welcome,that sounds like a nice versatile light.

Originally Posted by tebore

I reread your thread today and it really inspired me to give these seouls a try.

I have a few spare U2 bin P4s. If you guys are willing to trade for them I'd be happy to work something out. I'd love to stuff one of these high CRIs in another classic light; the HDS EDC.

Shoot me a PM if you need a few U2 Bin P4s and have some extra high CRI P4s.

Hi tebore,sending you a PM.


-Michael

[SafetyBob]

Michael, I have also found those warm white Seoul's at Mouser. They do make for a very nice "inside" light. I don't believe anyone realizes that I replaced a flourescent tube uplight with warm white P4s (they might have been P2s, can't remember now). The 3000K temp is really nice bouncing off a ceiling.

Very nice beamshots showing the difference. Truly is amazing the difference.

Bob E.

[gunga]

Where is the best place to get some of these high CRI seouls? I may need to try a few...

[KrisP]

Originally Posted by gunga

Where is the best place to get some of these high CRI seouls? I may need to try a few...

Originally Posted by TexLite

I can get you some and forward them to try to save you some shipping,or you can order them from Mouser.Search for S42180,make sure they're S2,they have S1 in stock as well.

http://www.mouser.com/

[R33E8]

Originally Posted by KrisP

http://www.mouser.com/

The ones mounted on stars are S42182

[discoverEDC]

TexLite,
Can you tell me how you modded a minimag reflector to work with the high CRI Seoul? Did you open up the bulb end of the reflector enough for the dome or the whole body? Also, have you ever tried an optic?

OK, I ordered my parts so I'll spill the design beans on my planned build. I ordered version 1 of the L-Mini by shiningbeam
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sho...d.php?t=177921
which I plan on using as the host for the high CRI Seoul.
Recap of the L-mini if you haven't run into mention of it: Fenix P3D size, runs on protected 17670 or unprotected 18650 with typical 5 modes. The low is lower than typical. The driver is supposed to push 1.1A to the emitter and has an adjustment pot on it to adjust the emitter output range from 900mA to 1.2A. I will test the drive current at the emitter when I do my build, with driver losses I would expect to see an actual 950 - 1000 mA at the emitter which is what I'm looking for. But if it's off I can adjust it The trick will be photon management hence my questions to you. I will try the (cree) OP reflector that I ordered with the light just to see what it does.

Unfortunately family issues will keep me from building the light soon, possibly until after Thanksgiving. With any luck someone will borrow my idea and I can find out ahead of time if it will work and what photon management is the best type. Thanks again for your answers to my questions.

Walt

[TexLite]

Hi Walt,

If your asking about the MiniMag I had for sale,It was the LED version.I didnt change anything but the emitter,the Seoul P4's are nearly a direct replacement of the Lux's that come in the light,and the high CRI version has the same package as the other P4's.

I haven't tried these with an optic,but my guess is they will perform poorly.The beam pattern should be ok,but tint variations might be visible.

I cant comment on the L-Mini,as I haven't seen them up till now.It looks to be a good host for the money,li-ion compatible,multi-mode,etc.

The catch will be the reflector,they're probably not going to work well with the Seouls.The Cree XR-E that comes in the light has a totally different viewing angle,and the reflector will be optimized for that emitter.

If they're similar in size to other lights of that style(Fenix,Jetbeam,etc.) then a McGizmo McR18 or a stippled 17mm Khatod,KCLP17ST,would be your best bet.

These are guesses on my part as I havent tried either with this emitter,they work great with the standard cooler P4's,and the beam shape will most likely work well,the unknown variable will be the tint.And as I stated before,I'm not familiar with that light,so I cant say if they're even moddable.

I'll try one out with an optic and let you know.

-Michael