Compact Flouressents

Saaby · #1 07-17-2003, 10:46 AM

Ok CPFers, dont dissapoint me now. Grace me with your vast knowledge of Compact Flouressents. We've been using, for the past couple months, those GE Reveal bulbs in the bathroom. My mom likes them because when she does her makeup she's not yellow. So they were both blown yesterday (It's a 2 bulb fixture. One had blown and hadn't been changed yet and then the other went) and so I suggested we get a Compact Flouressent to go in the fixture. Same, cool temperature light and save lots of energy. The bulbs, Philips Marathon, were like $8 so I could only convince her to get one. Oh boy, we've got 4 other compact flouressents (2 spiral and 2 'U' tube shape) and I've never seen performance like this. It's really slow coming on, and then when it does it's got a very warm color temperature.

What I need is something closer to an instant on light (Even if it flickers at startup) that's either full spectrum or has got a cooler color temperature, closer to those reveal bulbs. Cost is important too.

James S · #2 07-17-2003, 02:06 PM

The phillips marathon bulbs are pretty good, but very expensive as you've already found out [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] The best other kind I've got is from Sylvania. They used to carry them at the lowes in Richmond, but they only carry the GE bulbs here so I don't know where else to get them. The sylvania ones were not expensive, about $5 for a 75 watt equivalent. The GE bulbs can be had for around the same at Target, but the color is much cooler. But cooler is better than greener which some of the older ones used to do.

I pretty much stay away from the "Lights of America" lights. I had a bunch of them several years ago. The first set I bought are still working even now, but the second set all burned out (literally smoking themselves). They may have sorted out their quality control issues by now, I don't know.

I also own several "Commerical Electric" or whatever they are called that they sell at home depot. I've not had any burn out, and the color is very good from the spiral bulbs. However though they say instant on they are not. They start producing light instantly but it takes minutes to ramp up to full on, unlike the sylvania bulb. Their spot light type bulbs are good and bright, but are very cool colored and also take minutes (or longer) to brighten to full output.

I would stay away from the ones that pretend to look like regular light bulbs. I've owned several of these and they were less than useless. Very dim and slow to warm up.

Max · #3 07-17-2003, 02:23 PM

I have a few fixtures that I would love to replace with Fluorescents, but have some complications.

First, I have some table lamps. I tried two different CF bulbs that either smacked into the harp or were too long. Any recommendations on CF bulbs that conform well the to space originally occupied by a typical 3-way bulb?

Second, I have some lights on dimmer switches. I know that dimmable CF bulbs exist, but I haven't noticed them around. Any recommendations?

Saaby · #4 07-17-2003, 02:49 PM

I almost forgot, maybe a Halogena bulb is better suited for this particular application?

Tomas · #5 07-18-2003, 11:42 PM

I've had good luck with the Sylvanias in this kind of app. Quick on and very reasonable color temp.

I have some "bulb-shaped" lights that take a good 5 minutes to get to 90% output, and some older GE spirals that are the same or even slower ...

hideo · #6 07-19-2003, 06:54 AM

we've been pretty happy with the EDIT Sylvanias ( NOT Osram/Phillips?) 13 Ws in compact form that are sold in 3 packs at Lowes for $15 ...

the commonly sold Lights of America and other cheap brands have not been very good in my experience

hideo

James S · #7 07-19-2003, 09:36 AM

Tomas, where do you purcahse the Sylvanias? The local lowes doesn't carry them here [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] And they are my favorite in light color and warm up time.

Darell · #8 07-19-2003, 09:51 AM

While I have CFs all over the house, I have no idea what brand everything is. Typically, I buy an armful when they're on sale, and I have quite a collection of various shapes/sizes/colors/quality/brightness. I haven't bought any in years since I can usually dig through my stash and come up with what I want. If I put one in and hate it for whatever reason, it gets donated, and another takes its place. So basically, I'm no help here. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif[/img]

Darell · #9 07-19-2003, 09:52 AM

Oh... I should add that more often than not, the ones I'm happiest with cost me $1 or less. Seriously. I have many $8 ones that I can't stand.

flashfan · #10 07-19-2003, 11:48 AM

Darell: Where do you get compact fluorescents for $1 or less, and at what wattages?

Max: Like you, I've had problems fitting lamps with compact fluorescent bulbs. There are some small bulbs, but for me, they were just too dim. Perhaps specialty lamp shops would carry larger harps? I've checked local "generic" stores but they carry only the most common sizes, which are still too small.

What I ended up doing with one of our lamps is removing the harp, and inverting the lampshade so that it sits on the top of the lamp base. Whether or not this will work for you depends on the shape and style of your lamp/shade, and whether anybody in your household would "object." I had to cut the metal fixture (bars) that attach the lampshade to the harp, so this is a "permanent" fix, unless you can solder or weld the bars back in place (or get a new lampshade). We have an interesting new lamp (w/ an 85-watt! CF bulb) that works for us, but do this at your own risk.

flashfan · #11 07-19-2003, 11:55 AM

Re: Dimmable CF. I tried one, and it was horrible. At lower settings, the light flickered terribly, and was "okay" only at full brightness, which really defeats the purpose of a dimmable bulb. Keep in mind that I tried this only once, and only on one fixture, so perhaps the bulb and/or the fixture were faulty (no problem with the fixture using incandescent light bulbs). Just my limited experience, FWIW.

paulr · #12 07-19-2003, 11:56 AM

Where'd you get that 85 watt CF bulb?!!

I see 99 cent CF bulbs at the local discount store, in various ratings from 11 to 20 watts. They have two U-shaped tubes (not spiral) and somehow don't seem all that bright. Also, the light from them is blueish, nothing like incandescent light or the light from a "warm" CF bulb. They are cheap though, and supposedly long lasting. I guess they're a good value for stairwells and such.

Saaby · #13 07-19-2003, 12:06 PM

It would seem that all the Compact Flouressents are designed to be "Warm" and "Incandessent Like"

What I need is something that is cool. Closer to the shade of not-compact flouressents. Every one I've tried so far gets me the response "My skin looks yellow"

Tomas · #14 07-19-2003, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
James S said:
Tomas, where do you purcahse the Sylvanias? The local lowes doesn't carry them here [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] And they are my favorite in light color and warm up time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid I'm not going to be much help with my answer, James: I get them at Lowe's ... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif[/img]

MenaceSQL · #15 07-19-2003, 02:24 PM

As for "Lights of America" CF bulbs, five out of the six that I have bought died shortly after their purchase so I don't recommend them. Four of the dead were the 200 watt equivalent rated at 45 watts. The other one was an automotive lamp which I forgot its ratings. I now use GE CF bulbs and have had no problems with them. When they go on sale here they go for $9.99/pair and I use the 100 watt equivalent which is rated around 20-22 watts. All my bulbs came from Wal-Mart.

James S · #16 07-19-2003, 03:36 PM

I just dug up an email I sent to a completely unrelated email list reviewing some bulbs. This also has their tolerance for being controled via various X10 modules in it which may or may not be of any interest to the folks here [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] But more importantly I make some note of the actual color temperature. If the bulb doesn't specify a color temperature then it's probably lousy.

In my continuing attempts to lower my electric bill and not heat the house so much in this alleged environment here in the deep south I've purchased another batch of various CF bulbs. I thought I'd share my thoughts on them for you folks.

GOOD:
Sylvania 60watt tightly wound curl type bulb.
(sorry lost the packaging so I can't tell you the exact model)
pros: excellent light quality, very white and very bright. Bulb is labeled at 3000k, I think, it's hard to see it up in the fixture. Small footprint, will fit in virtually any lamp. Inexpensive, under $5 at Lowes. Actually this is the only brand of CF's that Lowes here carries.

cons: Takes a half a second to light up when you turn it on.

X10 performance: No noticeable problems with X10. I've had it plugged into an appliance module and also into a ceiling fixture controlled by a standard X10 light switch (the cheap kind that dims, not the expensive kind that knows about fluorescents, but it is set to never dim in XTension) In this configuration there are other non-cf bulbs in line with it to provide the switch with it's necessary current. In both cases the light performs very well.

Philips Marathon 3way 60/90/150 watt equivalent.
pros: This is a very bright bulb. Light color is also acceptable at 2700k, but in my opinion it's not as good as the above sylvania. It is the traditional bent tube design, not a cured up tube. The 3way action is achieved by electronically dimming the bulb, not by switching off individual elements. This way the whole bulb should last the life of the bulb, the low power setting wont burn out before the high power one. At 150watt output it uses only 34 watts of power.

cons: EXPENSIVE! nearly $20 at Home Depot. This is the hottest running CF that I have owned, but then it is putting out considerably more light than any other that I own. This light is tall, it may not fit in lamps with a smaller harp holding up the shade. In order to get it into my living room lamp I had to remove the shade support, insert the bulb and then replace the shade support. Takes a second to startup after applying the power. Packaging says that the bulb must be run ballast down, probably because of the heat generated, so they are not suitable for enclosed or any other kind of non-vertical lamp. However, I have placed one in a lamp by the side of my couch which is on a gooseneck, so it's always pointing down or to the side. This lamp is otherwise very open so I don't think heat should be a problem.

X10: No noticeable interference. I am running one through an appliance module and another in a regular lamp module (set to never dim in XTension of course) and in both cases it runs fine. The documentation does specifically warn that some switches or remote controls may have dimming circuits built in and not to use it with them, but so far it's running great on the lamp module. If it dies or catches fire or something I'll let everyone know.

JUST OK:

Commercial Electric 60 watt mini spiral lamp.
pros: small, this bulb is the same size as the sylvania, it will fit in any fixture. It is suitable for enclosed fixtures (which is why I bought it) It is inexpensive less that $5 at Home Depot. It is instant on! You can't tell the difference between this and an incandescent when flicking the light switch. It comes on at a substantial percentage of it's full brightness also. My kitchen overhead fixture now has 3 of these instead of 3 60watt regular bulbs, the amount of light is the same and the temperature difference in the room is really significant when trying to run the AC.

cons: The light color is only so so. When it first comes on it has a slight greenish cast that I believe goes more or less away as the light warms up. It's not that objectionable. Commercial Electric seems to be the low price brand that Home Depot sells. They do not print a light color measurement on the packaging beyond "warm white light".

X10: No noticeable interference. I have not tried to control these bulbs in any way yet, but they do not cause problems for any other x10 systems in the house.

LOUSY:

Commercial Electric 60 watt enclosed bulb style.
pros: it looks more like a regular light bulb.

cons: lousy light color. What can I say, it's green. SLOW startup. It comes on quickly, but at a almost unusable percentage of it's brightness. It then very slowly ramps up to it's regular light output, which is still less than it's mini spiral lamp cousin reviewed above.

X10: Doesn't seem to cause problems, but probably should not be controlled by a lamp module. I experimented with this and the bulb buzzed loudly when controlled in the same manner as I'm doing with all the above lights. It also got very hot very quickly. So I switched it off. I can't recommend this bulb.

These are just my opinion, it's possible I got a bad batch of that last one or something.

To Jeffrey Lomicka who suggested that I check the socket on my lamp that was eating CF bulbs, you were 100% correct! The socket was terribly corroded and nasty inside. There were even burn marks on the SIDE of a regular 75 watt that I had put in there to replace the CF it ate! I bought a new 3 way socket and some lamp cord and completely rebuilt it. It's now happily running the big marathon above and so far so good.

So people definitely check your sockets before putting a $20 light bulb into the lamp! You should check them anyway as what I saw was burning on the light bulb due to a bad connection. Thats dangerous.

flashfan · #17 07-19-2003, 05:44 PM

"Where'd you get that 85 watt CF bulb?!!"

Topbulb.com. Before you rush off to buy one of these spiral bulbs however, be aware that at this high wattage, the bulbs are not "compact" by any stretch of the imagination.

The 85-watt bulb I have is HUGE (approx. 11" long and about 4" in diameter--guesstimates, as I don't have the bulb with me right now). Also, at $25 + SH per bulb, it's not cheap. There is also a 105 watt spiral (I just ordered a couple the other day). The only downside for me, is that these bulbs are available only at the low color temperature of 2700.

The brightest "white light" CF bulbs I've seen (haven't searched the Net in a long, long time) are rated at 55 watts with a color temperature of 5000--bright and very white.

mattheww50 · #18 07-19-2003, 06:11 PM

Actually the largest I have seen is a 105 watts, and most of the big one's have relatively high color temperatures, or at least a choice. You will definitely pay for the big guys however, and they are fairly slow starting up.

The problem is current rules severely limit the amount of mercury you can use, so these bulbs are probably closer to HID then fluorescent in many respects. They avoid the huge starting voltages such a long tube would require with some trickery. GE I think holds the patent. The phosphors coatings are conductive. So you just turn the thing on, and initially the light comes only from the ends, however you do get some lighting from the rest of the lamp as the conducting phosphor generate ELD and local ionization. As the tube warms up, you get more of whatever is inside to form a gas and begin conducting, until eventually the whole tube lights up. From measurements I have made, ultimate brightness is about 5 times initial brightness, and takes several minutes.

http://images.andale.com/f2/106/104/...88_i_1_B_L.jpg

is a 105 watt, it is available in either 2700K (warm white), or 5000K (daylight)

I have some 55 watters. Don't even think about using one on a dimmer, the ballast just burns up! I use them in Torchiere style floor lights.

http://www.powerpoints.com/image/ebay/18942.jpg

is a 42 watt.

Most of the higher wattage lamps (30 watts and up) are available in both warm white and Daylight.

eBay is a good place to shop for them, search for compact fluorescent. However the high wattage versions are sufficinetly exoctic still that you won't find much at Lowe's or Home Depot, the specialist places on the web often have them however and prices that are reasonable.

Darell · #19 07-19-2003, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
flashfan said:
Darell: Where do you get compact fluorescents for $1 or less, and at what wattages?

[/ QUOTE ]
All over the place. The last place was a huge sale at Long's Drug store. They had everything from 40-100W equivalent. And I must say, they have been some of my favorites. NOT confined to the stairwells at all. Nice color temp, instant on, no flicker, and they've lasted and lasted.

flashfan · #20 07-19-2003, 06:55 PM

Thanks for the info on the bulbs, Darell and paulr! Will have to check them out.

Threepio · #21 07-20-2003, 12:53 AM

The CF's I've been happiest with have been the Panasonic Light Capsules, 28 watt at 5000 degree K. They've fit in every lamp I've tried, and I get several years use out of them. I use them at work (hospital) in everything from a walk-in freezer to enclosed closet fixtures. About $11.00 each and worth it, IMHO.

I'm told the cheap spiral CF's at Big Lots are nice and bright at a high color temp, but haven't tried them myself.

You might even find some Durotest Spirolux 6700 degree lamps if you can find a distributor, I'm hoarding mine, and am told they're not being made any longer.

DougNel · #22 07-20-2003, 01:10 AM

I just went through a through search to replace a very bright (and very hot) halogen desk lamp with a fluorescent and came up with a light with absolutely beautiful output. 27 watts with the lumen output of a 150 watt incandescent. Take a look at Verilux HappyEyes

This link is for the lamps, but the company also sells stand alone CPF's with similar light characteristics. The bulb's one disadvantage is a (relatively) short life of 5000 hours. But the beam must be seen to be believed.

highlandsun · #23 07-24-2003, 08:43 AM

Any opinions on Maxlite bulbs? I'm looking for some candelabra based bulbs for my stairwell and dining room lights. Six bulbs for two hanging lamps in the stairwell, 5 bulbs for the dining room. I'll probably get the Maxlite Dim-All dimmer for the dining room lamp as well, since I'd like to keep the dimming capability.

FlashlightMuseum · #24 07-25-2003, 09:18 AM

Maxlite decorative bulbs (5 watt std./cand. base) bulbs are actually very nice compacts - they look very close to the originals that they replace.

You can order them online here:
http://www.lite-house.com/catalog_pr...mp;subcat=cfl6

Back to the other question, I think Sylvania is tops for producing standard A-line bulb replacements. Their new twist models have really been popular. It just so happens that http://www.lite-house.com has a sale right now on the 15, 20 and 23 watt twist compacts for $7.99 each. They are all 10K hours each. Hope this helps.

highlandsun · #25 07-26-2003, 09:03 PM

Thanks for the tip, I just ordered a case of candelabra bulbs from them. (I only need 11, but 12 to case, who knows, the last may come in handy...)

Tomas · #26 07-27-2003, 01:46 PM

Since I saw a previous mention of fixtures in this thread, let me throw in some that I found to be very good for specific task lighting (there's one next to me right now).

Ott-Lite site.
Image search for Ott-Lite fixtures. (Google)

Their lamps fit other fixtures, too.

Lurker · #27 07-31-2003, 12:51 PM

Saaby, I would recommend the Sylvania 15-watt twist CFL for your use, assuming it is not a fully enclosed fixture. I have various ones all over my house, and that is the only one that could actually pass as an incandescent. Color temp is cool like a Reveal, too. It starts instantly, at what seems like full brightness and has the best color I've seen from a CFL.

However, no fluorescent is going to give the kind of color rendition that is possible with a good incandescent. In applications where color rendition is critical, such as over a make-up mirror, you may have to go with an incandescent for best satisfaction. But I think the Sylvania 15 watt twist bulb is your best bet.

One other thing you can try is using one Reveal bulb and one CFL in the same fixture as long as the incandescent doesn't overheat the CFL. This will give you half the savings and all the light quality. Or it may help you "phase over" to all CFL later with a less noticeable change in color quality.

Saaby · #28 07-31-2003, 02:00 PM

Lurker...

Right now that's exactly how it's set up.

Please, keep this thread going--I'm learning lots, but as we looked into it we realized that our house has slowly been overtaken by CFs (5 Overhead Flouressents, 5 sockets with CFs in them 5 without--3 of which are X10 controlled and 1 of which is a heat lamp so incandessent is necessary) so it looks like, considering we have a small stockpile of incandessents, we'll stick with 1 incandessent and 1 CF for the time being. For how long? Donno...

mattheww50 · #29 08-04-2003, 08:29 PM

"However, no fluorescent is going to give the kind of color rendition that is possible with a good incandescent. In applications where color rendition is critical, such as over a make-up mirror, you may have to go with an incandescent for best satisfaction. But I think the Sylvania 15 watt twist bulb is your best bet. "

That really isn't true. There are Fluros out there with truly outstanding qualities, the problem is your local Home Depot or Lowe's doesn't carry them. The shop light has a CRI in the 50's (Color rendition index), has a color temperature that makes the Blue sky look warm, and costs $1)

You can get Fluorescents with CRI's up into the 90's. It is done with lamps that have output in all 3 primary colors and can produce spectral distribution very similar to incandescent, but with several times the efficiency. They are intended to use in places where color rendition is essential. In the GE lines, they are the SPX family, like a F40SPX35. Color rendition is slightly cooler then an incandescent at 3500K, if you'd like more incandescent a look, go with the SPX30, for close to Daylight, SPX41, and if you really want daylight, the Chroma 50, with a CRI of 90. Philips used to call their products Ultra Lume.

That's the good news. the bad news, and the reason places like Home Depot don't stock these lamps is simple: PRICE.
In case lots, F40SPX series are about $9 per lamp wholesale.

I have used SPX series lamps in living rooms, and most guests are truly surprised when they discover the room is being lit with fluro's...

GE does make CF's with SPX phosphors.
The FLE15TT3/827 is a 15 watt CF with 2700K (incandescent) color temperature, and CRI of 82.
The FLE15TBX/L/835 is the same product with 3500K color temp. Higher wattages (20,24,28 and 42watts are all available)

highlandsun · #30 08-05-2003, 11:51 AM

Well, my MaxLite candelabra bulbs arrived today, and I swapped in 3 of them right away. There was an effect that I hadn't considered at all, which is esthetically disappointing. My stairwell chandeliers have faceted cover panes, and with the incandescents you get all these nice patterns of shadows and edges and slight rainbow traces on the walls due to the shape of the filaments and such. The CF bulbs just produce a smooth wash of white light. Boring, very boring. For general purpose utilitarian lighting CF may be ok, but candelabra bulbs are supposed to be decorative too, and these are definitely not.