What Is The Best Way To Light Up A Gym?

Ken_McE · #1 08-29-2004, 06:26 AM

Hi Folks,

I want to update the lighting in a gymnasium and am not sure which way to go.

The existing setup is boxes about one foot square that are built into the ceiling. Each one has a faded grey aluminum reflector in it and a socket at the top where big 300 watt incandescent bulbs are supposed to go. If you put in a 300 watt incandesent in each spot it does light up the room nicely, but the bulbs don't last that long, and you are creating more heat than light - you can go outside in the winter and watch them melt snow off the roof!

I tried pulling all of them, putting in a "Y" shaped fitting, and putting two compact flourescent bulbs in each spot. I used the ones that claim to be replacements for 100 watt incandescent bulbs, because they are the strongest they sell around here. This was efficient, and helped save the snow, but the overall effect was that the room was greenish and dim and underlit to the point where people didn't like it. Also, because the compact flourescent bulbs are burning base-up some of them had the glass of the bulb come loose and hang from their bases, and a number of the (plastic) "Y" fitting started to brown and fail mechanically. This did not make me very happy, I do not need fire hazards in my roof!

After this I found a company in florida that imports self ballasted mercury lights. I got some. They are bright and efficient, but if some passing child turns the lights out after they've started to warm up, I don't have any light for a while 'cause they are slow to restart when warm.

I would appreciate any suggestions on which way to go with the lighting. I am looking for something with a longish life, because changing the bulbs is a fairly involved procedure. I would like something that is more efficient than an incandescent bulb. I am not concerned with per-unit cost to buy the new bulbs, but rather with the lifetime cost to run them 'till they die.

Suggestions anyone?

jtr1962 · #2 08-29-2004, 07:17 AM

Is it absolutely essential that you keep the old fixtures? That pretty much limits your options to something that could screw in to the socket. About the only thing I would suggest here would be one of those huge 85 watt CFLs. At least you'll be able to get rid of the double socket. An 85W CFL should put out a bit more light than a 300 watt incandescent, and last about 10,000 hours. I'd suggest either 5000K full-spectrum or if you can't find one 6500K. Forget 2700K-they give less apparent output, won't blend well with the daylight coming through the windows, and give everything a horrible yellowish/greenish tinge (as you've already discovered). You want the best possible visibility in a gymnasium, and that means high-color temperature lighting with good color rendering.

If you're willing to change your fixtures I might suggest something like this. Use the same company's full spectrum tubes for the best light possible. You have a choice of 4 or 6 tube fixtures. You can probably use the 4 tube T-8 fixtures. Each one produces about 13,200 lumens (compared to 6000 for the incandescents), and uses ~150 watts, so you'll cut your power usage in half compared to the incandescents and get more than 2 times the light (and also a much nicer light I might add). Additionally, the tubes are rated for 34,000 hours, but this is based on 3 hours on per start (standard for rating fluorescent tubes). If they're on 12 hours per start, as is likely in a gymnasium, you'll probably get closer to 40,000 hours. This means the tubes will last on average close to 13 years between changes (assuming 12 hours/day, 5 days/week, 52 weeks/year). Granted, it's a pricey solution, and more labor intensive, but once it's done you probably won't need to do anything, even change a tube, for at least a decade.

If possible please post before and after pics. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

James S · #3 08-29-2004, 07:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
but if some passing child turns the lights out after they've started to warm up

[/ QUOTE ]

regardless of the solution, CFL or HID or those terrific looking new fixtures that jtr1962 linked to (which i think look terrific BTW [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ) You're going to have to have a locking switch installed. If there is no gym for a period or 2, switching those kinds of lights off and on that often actually shortens their life. Depending on the bulb and fixture a real professional bay solution will be able to tell you where you start to break even on turning them off and for how long. But for an hour or 2 you definitely just want to leave them on. These bulbs have a limited number of starts to them and it's a lot easier on them, and doesn't save you much power either, to shut them off and restart them.

And you certainly don't want the kids being able to flick them off and on!

Ken_McE · #4 08-29-2004, 04:47 PM

>Is it absolutely essential that you keep the old fixtures?

No.

>That pretty much limits your options to something that could screw
> in to the socket. About the only thing I would suggest here would
>be one of those huge 85 watt CFLs.

Where on earth does one find such a thing???

> At least you'll be able to get rid of the double socket. An 85W CFL
> should put out a bit more light than a 300 watt incandescent, and
>last about 10,000 hours.

This sounds like a good way to get through the coming winter, and to buy time while I prepare a permanent solution.

> I'd suggest either 5000K full-spectrum or if you can't find one 6500K.
> Forget 2700K-they give less apparent output, won't blend well with
>the daylight coming through the windows,

In the daytime natural light works pretty well.

>If you're willing to change your fixtures I might suggest something
>like this...
> the tubes will last on average close to 13 years between changes
> (assuming 12 hours/day, 5 days/week, 52 weeks/year). Granted,
>it's a pricey solution, and more labor intensive, but once it's done you
> probably won't need to do anything, even change a tube, for at least
>a decade.

I'm not afraid of changing over all the fixtures, but I want to think it through carefully before I commit us to a new technology.

>If possible please post before and after pics. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Right now it's a mess. Three different types of bulbs,some places with one bulb, some with two, half a dozen spots with no working bulb at all. These super CFL bulbs sound like a good way to get it ready for this winter.

Zelandeth · #5 08-29-2004, 07:02 PM

Here's one of those 85W CFL's...

And here's its page, with a few more pics

Granted, this is a 2700K version, but I reckon you must be able to find some other colour temperatures somewhere.

mattheww50 · #6 08-29-2004, 07:48 PM

Color rendition tends to be a problem with Mercury vapor, and there are some distinct hazards indoors, the big one is that if the outer envelope should fail while the light is on, you can give the occupants one hell of a sunburn in a hurry.

The best choice is probably to kiss the old fixtures goodbye and use some 175 watt Multi-Vapor (MVR175 series) lamps, they provide almost 100 lumens per watts, and have a CRI of about 70, so they don't look bad. you can replace 2 300 watt incandescents with a single 175, and still get almost twice the light per ft^2.
(300 watt incandescent is about 6000 lumens, 175 watt MXR is about 17000 lumens) While the cost of the ballast assembly is pretty high, if you are billed electricity on a commercial basis, the reduction in demand charges and actual power consumption makes the payback period surprisingly short , and these things have a 10,000 hour life, so they don't have to be changed very often.

Demand charges are dear, each KW you can clip off the peak demand is generally worth $10-$12 per month. so if you replace 10 x 300 watt lamps with 5 175's, that is about $25 per month, and something on the order of 15 cents per hour (energy charge( in operating costs.

I know when I did the numbers on my outside lighting, and replaced a couple 300 watt halogens with 70 watt HPS's, they pay back was 2 years. I sold the place before I had to replace the HPS lamps. 10,000 hours at 6 hours per night is a long time....

jtr1962 · #7 08-30-2004, 09:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ken_McE said:
>About the only thing I would suggest here would
>be one of those huge 85 watt CFLs.

Where on earth does one find such a thing???

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is an 85W CFL available in both 2700K and 6500K for only $29.95. The cheapest I've been able to find a 5000K version is $59.99. Since this is only to get you through the winter I wouldn't advise spending that much money. The 6500K CFLs will be fine in the gymnasium, and blend well with the natural light coming in through the windows. The only caveat is that you should replace all the lights in the gymnasium with the new CFLs since 6500K will look horribly bluish next to incandescents or warm-white CFLs. When you decide on a permanent solution you can sell the used CFLs on eBay at a reduced price, or maybe to fellow CPF members, as they'll still have a lot of life left in them. I would personally be happy to buy one or two at, say, $10 or less each.

BTW, are the existing fixtures standard base or mogul base? The ones I linked to are standard base, but you can always buy adaptors.

3rd_shift · #8 08-30-2004, 03:10 PM

As far as the lights all going out problem goes,
I have seen some gyms/warehouses leave a couple incandescant bulbs installed and running, just in case the power flickers.
Those stay on while the hid lights warm back up.
You also may want to consider flourescent lighting instead.
I'm finding good "shoplights" at The Home Depot and other places for about $20 - $30 each with 2 40 watt F 40 tubes each.
2x F40 setups are about equal to, or brighter than your 300 watt heater bulbs are. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

phyhsuts · #9 08-30-2004, 08:30 PM

I would also say fluorescent lights. Linear fluorescents are cheapest. CFLs like those from Landlite offer outputs to 13,000 lm wile consuming 220W. Not a bad solution when used with the usual highbay fixtures. Top dollar solutions use electrodeless fluorescents like the Osram Icetron or Philips QL types. Fixtures are mostly dedicated though. These are expensive but require relamping much less often. Many commercial buildings with difficult to reach ceilings use them to reduce running cost! 1st Source is one of many who makes fixtures for these. They also make fixtures for linear lamps.

udaman · #10 09-08-2004, 09:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ken_McE said:
>Is it absolutely essential that you keep the old fixtures?

No.

>That pretty much limits your options to something that could screw
> in to the socket. About the only thing I would suggest here would
>be one of those huge 85 watt CFLs.

Where on earth does one find such a thing???

> At least you'll be able to get rid of the double socket. An 85W CFL
> should put out a bit more light than a 300 watt incandescent, and
>last about 10,000 hours.

This sounds like a good way to get through the coming winter, and to buy time while I prepare a permanent solution.

> I'd suggest either 5000K full-spectrum or if you can't find one 6500K.
> Forget 2700K-they give less apparent output, won't blend well with
>the daylight coming through the windows,

In the daytime natural light works pretty well.

>If you're willing to change your fixtures I might suggest something
>like this...
> the tubes will last on average close to 13 years between changes
> (assuming 12 hours/day, 5 days/week, 52 weeks/year). Granted,
>it's a pricey solution, and more labor intensive, but once it's done you
> probably won't need to do anything, even change a tube, for at least
>a decade.

I'm not afraid of changing over all the fixtures, but I want to think it through carefully before I commit us to a new technology.

>If possible please post before and after pics. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Right now it's a mess. Three different types of bulbs,some places with one bulb, some with two, half a dozen spots with no working bulb at all. These super CFL bulbs sound like a good way to get it ready for this winter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok Ken_McE has posted in another thread since starting this one....so we'll assume he'll come back to this one eventually.

1st recommendation: Do we have any professional lighting specialist here who have years of experience with this type of situation? If not, then you're getting interesting information here that you could use in helping to decide with a professional, what your best options will be for a long-term solution. But it is best to consult with a professional in your area, who can do an on the spot inspection to best determine a workable long-term solution.

2nd. It would be better to fully disclose all pertinent information you have on this current setup, and what you are seeking to accomplish now/future. I see no indication of what uses this 'gym' is contemplated for, other than 'children' seem to be in it at sometime? Define what the intended uses are, define where the fixtures are, what type of fixtures (wattage ratings, what bulbs you currently have in there). I see a note that a bunch of these have bulbs that are not currently working...why? Merely burned out bulbs that need replacing, or are there electrical problems which you should consult with a professional on if the problems are not easily discernible? I see no notation of the area to be lighted, how far apart the fixtures are, how high the ceiling is where these fixtures are located, if it is a perfectly flat ceiling, or arched. So many different parameters that can make choices of which lights you want to install on a permanent basis.

While Jtr's suggestion for $30 6.5k CFL seems an excellent short-term solution, faulty fixtures can be a fire hazard no matter what bulbs you install.

3rd. After coming up with a budget, then you can weigh in with different possible solutions. Until you narrow down the budget constraints, it is difficult to decide which lighting option will best suit your needs.

There are recessed fixtures that may supply wide enough angle of light to use fewer numbers along the ceiling. I would always choose a higher CRI metal halide HID system for the excellence of white color of light over any full spectrum CFL or linear tube fluor set-up. While there are many horticultural supplies websites that can sell you free hanging metal halide fixtures of smaller type in 175w range that will give you light similar to the larger ones seen in warehouse type retail outlets like CostCo or Home Depot, if the ceiling is too low, and you're dealing with any-kind of activities where the fixtures maybe hit and could break, it is best to use the existing fixtures or have new recessed fixtures installed. If there is no potential for these to be broken, or you can find heavy-duty exposed fixtures, then a high-output fluorescent linear tube system maybe the most cost effective.

I have to say, I do not believe for a second these long life claims for fluorescent systems. But using a high quality ballast to over-drive(it's a CPF tradition to try to 'turbocharge' all lighting systems whenever possible!) with $5 daylight 4ft fluorescent tubes, after replacing the junk ballasts in an inexpensive linear fluor tube fixture, is the cost effective, energy consuming, low maintenance system that I would choose...again depending on the gym dimensions and intended uses for the gym. Standard 4ft tubes either T-8 or older/more commonly available T-12 tubes can be bought and thrown out as you wish when they dim down to unacceptable levels in a few years or so (never mind those 10 year claims [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ). You can almost never have too much light, but the expensive ballast I'm linking to here has the capability to run off of a timer and dimmer control. Couple that with higher quality tubes from the site jtr linked to with the T-5 tubes, and you may get reliable long-term lighting this way... 10-years before the tubes stop working or have drastically reduced lumen output, nah, you can't convince me of that. Later I'm going to post pictures of yet another 23w CFL, in the newbie CFL thread here; that bit the dust prematurely less than one year old when the inexpensive, low quality, non-heavy-duty ballast fried itself...long, long before the rated lifespan of the bulb.

Read these articles 1st, then decide if these are the wonder ballast (kind of expensive, and the accessory parts the the authorized dealers sell are a complete rip-off, i.e. 15ft cord with grounded plug- $48!!! insane unless it's shielded heavy-duty cable with $20 hospital grade grounded plugs...for which you'd want equally expensive plug receptacles) you can use:

IceCap Inc Normal Output Lamps Run on IceCap Ballast

IceCap Inc-t-8bulbs

IceCap Inc Luminescence Analysis

Finally, for those pesky children; just install a plexiglass/lexan locking cover for the light switches. You could make your own, or buy one for this purpose.

There is a before and after pet shop/aqaurium store setup with single lamp T-5 tubes run off of IceCap ballasts on the home page of IceCap; not sure that does you much good for comparison purposes [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] http://www.icecapinc.com/

jtr1962 · #11 09-08-2004, 02:52 PM

udaman,

This may interest you. Basically, this confirms what you linked to above about overdriving standard fluorescent tubes, only this person did it with two $8 Home Depot shoplights. I tested the mod on one of the same type of shoplights (I bought 4 of these after I read the article) just to verify that it works. No color shift, and the tubes glow about 70% brighter than normal. As for reduction in lamp life, I don't think anyone has done relevant studies for overdriving fluorescent tubes. However, at least up to maybe 2 or 3 times normal power I'd say the reduction is linear rather than exponential as with incandescents. For example, the aforementioned T-8 tubes that I recommended for the gym are rated at 34,000 hours (I'll confirm this for you in about 8 years, based on the average daily use in the kitchen [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ). Driving at 1.7X should give a life of 20,000 hours, which is certainly quite long by any standards. Some standard T-8 ballasts overdrive the lamps 15% by design with no claimed reduction in lamp life.

The Ice-Cap ballast certainly doesn't sound grossly overpriced, especially if used in a place where reliability is important because changing ballasts is a PITA. Running standard T-8 tubes would mean the ballast is operating well below it's maximum ratings. Hence, reliability should be enhanced.

makar · #12 09-19-2004, 10:54 AM

i want to add that the din standard recommends 200 lux (1 lx = 1 lm/m2) for a gym.

Ken_McE · #13 10-26-2004, 08:58 PM

>1st recommendation: Do we have any professional lighting specialist
>here who have years of experience with this type of situation? If not,
>then you're getting interesting information here that you could use in
>helping to decide with a professional, what your best options will be for
>long-term solution. But it is best to consult with a professional in your
> area, who can do an on the spot inspection to best determine a
> workable long-term solution.

I live in a small rural town in a small rural county. If I want solid advice on the best rapid-growth formula for first year heifers, I can get it. For lighting, well we just have salesmen. I approached the two biggest electrical suppliers in my area, asked for a case price on 85 W CFLs. One told me there is no such product and the other wants $30.00 (US) per bulb. They have never sold them before and it would be a special order. I can get $25/bulb on the internet.

>2nd. It would be better to fully disclose all pertinent information you
>have on this current setup, and what you are seeking to accomplish
> now/future. I see no indication of what uses this 'gym' is contemplated
> for, other than 'children' seem to be in it at sometime?

Its a big open room about two stories tall. It's about the size and shape of a barn only with no interior posts and a nicer finish. No south facing windows. It was originally built to be a gymnasium and still gets a little recreational use, but not like it used to. Mostly we have various public events there. Dinners. Bands. Civic events. Receptions. Meetings.

>Define what the intended uses are,

Assorted meetings.

>define where the fixtures are,

About two stories up, set into the ceiling.

>what type of fixtures (wattage ratings, what bulbs you currently
>have in there).

They are essentialy a hollow cube about one foot on a side. They were designed for 300 watt incandescent bulbs. We have a mix of existing bulbs, I've been wanting to get away from straight incandescent.

>I see a note that a bunch of these have bulbs that are not currently
>working...why?

Because I have to go out and get a large and heavy piece of equipment anytime we need to get at the ceiling.

>Merely burned out bulbs that need replacing,

Yes.

>or are there electrical problems which you should consult with a
>professional on if the problems are not easily discernible?

The building electrical is in good shape.

>I see no notation of the area to be lighted,

About the size of a basketball court.

how far apart the fixtures are, how high the ceiling is where these fixtures are located, if it is a perfectly flat ceiling, or arched.

Arched. I think it's 24 or 36 fixtures.

>While Jtr's suggestion for $30 6.5k CFL seems an excellent short-term
>solution, faulty fixtures can be a fire hazard no matter what bulbs
>you install.

If I put an 85 watt CFL in a spot designed for a 300 watt incandesent I will be running the fixture and wiring at 1/3 of its rated capacity. I consider that acceptable.

>3rd. After coming up with a budget, then you can weigh in with
>different possible solutions. Until you narrow down the budget
>constraints, it is difficult to decide which lighting option will
>best suit your needs.

I am accustomed to having to work without experts. There aren't any here. Almost any change should give me savings over time. If the long term figures honestly make sense then I can get it funded. I am focusing on operating cost, not initial expense.

>There are recessed fixtures that may supply wide
>enough angle of light to use fewer numbers along the ceiling.

I am OK with the existing number of fixtures.

>I would always choose a higher CRI metal halide HID system for the
> excellence of white color of light over any full spectrum CFL or
>linear tube fluor set-up.

Metal Halide is a contender for a new permanent system. I need to study up on them. Right now I don't understand them.

> if the ceiling is too low, and you're dealing with any-kind of activities
>where the fixtures maybe hit and could break, it is best to use the
> existing fixtures or have new recessed fixtures installed.

I was thinking surface mount some kind of armored fixures on the surface of the ceiling right by the existing units. If a ball hits it, so what?

>I have to say, I do not believe for a second these
>long life claims for fluorescent systems.

With our existing tube type fluoresents I have taken to
dating the bulbs and ballasts when they go in.

>But using a high quality ballast to over-drive(it's a CPF tradition to try
> to 'turbocharge' all lighting systems whenever possible!) with $5
> daylight 4ft fluorescent tubes, after replacing the junk ballasts in an
> inexpensive linear fluor tube fixture, is the cost effective, energy
> consuming,

I also want something that is simple enough that
any monkey can service it after my time.

>Finally, for those pesky children; just install a plexiglass/lexan
>locking cover for the light switches. You could make your own,
>or buy one for this purpose.

If I lock out the switches then I have created a new responsibilty for the staff. They have enough to do. Sometimes the staff are not there. Mostly people don't mess with the switches frivolously. However I want to be prepared if they did.

3rd_shift · #14 10-26-2004, 10:29 PM

If the voltage is 120, 240, 277 or 440 at the sockets,
There is a ballast for any of those to be wired into the supply wires behind the sockets.
Then just add your 70-100 watt Hid metal halide bulbs to the stock sockets.
A timer may be installed in the main circuit as well to make things easier for your staff.
Tables, or a retired podium or two may be used to cover over the switches enough to keep them out of sight of the kiddos.
Good luck.

Lynx_Arc · #15 10-26-2004, 11:05 PM

Talk is cheap, go look around at the newest gyms and see what they are using, taking into account their needs vs yours. I think most are using some sort of exotic incandescent lamps, metal halide or high pressure sodium or something. I have seen older buildings use F96T12 flourescent tubes also. Factors to consider are:
Cost per hour for acceptable light output.
Start up time, if a short on time is needed some types are out, some lights take awhile to warm up.
Investment in lighting system and long term maintanence needs, bulb and ballast costs and how often bulbs go out.
Color accuracy vs cost. You could even use the yukky pink/orange sodium lights most cities use, I bet they cost the least to run.

Ken_McE · #16 10-27-2004, 11:23 AM

> You could even use the yukky pink/orange sodium lights
>most cities use, I bet they cost the least to run.

I have those out in the parking lot. No way are they coming inside.

Saaby · #17 10-27-2004, 11:58 AM

I think something that needs to be restated here, if true, is that this isn't a 24h fitness go work out Gym, it's like a big flat auditorium, large meeting room Gym. Right?

jtr1962 · #18 10-27-2004, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Lynx_Arc said:
Color accuracy vs cost. You could even use the yukky pink/orange sodium lights most cities use, I bet they cost the least to run.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, not any more. Metal halide have about the same efficiency in terms of lumens per watt, and even more when you consider that the whiter light is much better for seeing in low light conditions. I'm surprised cities aren't starting to replace their sodium vapor lights with metal halide. NYC did some streets with it already, including 42nd Street. It looks so much better than those disgusting sodium vapor lights. I hope they replace everything within the next few years. Even the old greenish-blue mercury vapor lights looked better than the sodium vapor even though they weren't terribly efficient.

Lynx_Arc · #19 10-27-2004, 06:27 PM

I dont care much for the orange lights myself, most likely there is a cost to replace them with metal halide involved, I dont see them lasting any longer as far as I can tell.