A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6 - Page 6

RY3 · #**151** 03-06-2005, 10:11 PM

Just want to confirm that Pelican has contacted me (Thanks for David) and offer to replace my PM6. They also ask if I like to try the LED version instead.

Is Pleican the only one who advertises offers "you break it, we replace it, forever"? I wonder if UKE offers the same?

BTW, I finally took the PM6's head off to check it out. Attached is a picture if anyone interested.

NewBie · #**152** 03-06-2005, 10:26 PM

The filament supports in the bulb look interesting. Can you get a shot of them such that each support is visible?

deranged_coder · #**153** 03-07-2005, 03:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
RY3 said:
Is Pleican the only one who advertises offers "you break it, we replace it, forever"? I wonder if UKE offers the same?

[/ QUOTE ]
Surefire's guarantee is somewhat similar. To quote their website: "Lamps will burn out, batteries will be used up, and tape switches for WeaponLights™ will eventually need to be replaced. Everything else is covered by our lifetime no-hassle guarantee: If it breaks, we fix it!"

My own first-hand experience with Surefire customer service was quite good.

RY3 · #**154** 03-07-2005, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
NewBie said:
The filament supports in the bulb look interesting. Can you get a shot of them such that each support is visible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here you go...

The other side..

chevrofreak · #**155** 03-07-2005, 07:40 PM

I think the huge filament is the reason my Pelican M6 casts such a crappy beam. With a smooth reflector its a very wide oval beam, and you can actually see the loops of the filament in it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

captjlw · #**156** 03-07-2005, 08:29 PM

UK did a great job for me. I sent a light back that had some age on it after the plastic lens broke out sending the batteries into the ocean. Yes I was just about to step overboard for a night dive. They didn't fix it, they sent me a new current edition model. No questions asked. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Size15's · #**157** 03-08-2005, 01:15 AM

Those are great photos!

dano · #**158** 03-08-2005, 12:55 PM

That's an old M6 lamp! The newest ones are one piece integrated with the reflector.

-dan

SilverFox · #**159** 03-09-2005, 08:08 AM

Hello all,

I have been spending quite some time checking into this. Everywhere I look, I keep getting pointed in the same direction.

It seems that the most reliable way to get a primary Lithium CR123A cell to heat up and "rapidly vent with flame" is to subject it to a moderately high current.

These cells have a PTC protection device built in. Its function is to create an open circuit in the presence of a dead short, or under high thermal conditions. The PTC circuits are available in different current ranges. It will reset a limited number of times when the temperatures reduce to a safe level.

We all know that cells discharge at different rates in a multi-cell light. Some people rotate the cells thinking that the position "in the stack" makes a difference, others will throw both cells out and replace with fresh cells, and still others will check the voltage and replace the "low" cell with a new one.

When you have a cell potential imbalance and you turn the light on, the full cell tries to charge the low cell and bring things to equilibrium. In the case of a slight difference, not much happens. If you have a new cell put in with a worn cell, heat can be generated and since this is not a "dead short," the PTC trip current may be higher than the actual current while this is going on. Pressure can build up inside the cell and poof...

I am not pointing fingers here. Once again, let me say I am not pointing fingers here, but if someone unfamiliar with lithium 123 lights "borrowed" one, turned it on only to find the output dim, replaced a single cell and used it, we have the stage set for problems.

If any of this is close to what is really going on, an important part of using our lights would be to educate those around us that when the light goes dim, throw BOTH cells out and replace them with new.

I must admit that I have several used cells sitting around at different states of being used up. On occasion, I have grabbed whatever cells were handy to run a series of tests on a multi-cell light. I now have gathered up all my partially used cells and placed them in a zip loc bag that is labeled "Only for Use in Single Cell Lights." I have also instructed my family to not replace only one cell (I actually told them just to grab another light and I will take care of the re-loading [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ).

Tom

JackBlades · #**160** 03-09-2005, 11:42 AM

Excellent post, Silverfox!
Ever since I joined this board, and susequently began using multi-cell 123 lights, I have checked ALL cells with my DMM before loading. This includes checking/balancing used ones in my X5T. Just seemed like the smart thing to do.

I must admit that when I stumbled across this thread my eyes opened in awe. I had no idea something like this could happen!

Vrt · #**161** 03-09-2005, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
JackBlades said:
Ever since I joined this board, and susequently began using multi-cell 123 lights, I have checked ALL cells with my DMM before loading.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you checked voltage or amp. ?

Size15's · #**162** 03-09-2005, 03:48 PM

On quite a few occasions I have forced myself to throw away 'sets of batteries' because I can not be certain of their provenience rather than risk mixing cells. It is kind of gutting. I don't seem to be able to learn that I easily forget where the various huddles of batteries around came from. I don't use single-celled flashlights very often but I can usually find a battery sitting around to power one when I need it.

My best moment was when I had seven batteries in a group from an M6. One of them was obviously from a flashlight with a rotating TailCap. The six were basically unmarked. It can be really tempting not to worry about it.

Al

NewBie · #**163** 03-09-2005, 09:42 PM

Whoa!!!

Those are awesome photos, whatcha using?

sween1911 · #**164** 03-10-2005, 07:12 AM

I mark my batts with a Sharpie when I install them. Usually with the date I put them in and a "2" or "3" to indicate that they went in as a set of two or three. Never really knew the extent of what could happen if you play fast and loose with mixing cells. Great info here on the dangers. With great lumens comes great responsibility! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

beezaur · #**165** 03-10-2005, 08:28 AM

I don't think it is known that these cells were mixed.

Or did I miss something?

Scott

Size15's · #**166** 03-10-2005, 09:48 AM

Based on the photos taken and the uncertainty of the users and the knowledge that this type of venting is significantly more likely to occur when batteries are mixed it is realistic to conclude that the batteries were mixed.

That is my interpretation for what its worth.

js · #**167** 03-10-2005, 10:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
JackBlades said:
Excellent post, Silverfox!
Ever since I joined this board, and susequently began using multi-cell 123 lights, I have checked ALL cells with my DMM before loading. This includes checking/balancing used ones in my X5T. Just seemed like the smart thing to do.

I must admit that when I stumbled across this thread my eyes opened in awe. I had no idea something like this could happen!

[/ QUOTE ]

In gneral, it is not possible to determine the state of charge of a lithium manganese dioxide CR123 battery from a DMM open circuit voltage reading. Better to just replace batteries all at once, and with brand new batteries that are all of the exact same brand. I'd say that if you have any odd cells lying around, do exactly as SilverFox did: place them in a bag for use with single 123 lights only.

beezaur · #**168** 03-10-2005, 10:16 AM

"Based on the photos taken . . ."

I looked again at the photos of the two positive terminals, and they do seem to be different. Is this what you are referring to?

[edit: scratch that. One terminal looks like it still has two parts, but maybe they could still be the same?]

Scott

RY3 · #**169** 03-10-2005, 11:46 AM

Well, Thanks again for all the comments. Just want to put a closure for this incidence.

It was definitely an educational experience. As weird as it sound, I am kind of glad that it happened; I never thought it could happen and now I am aware of this potential problem.

It is also funny that I didn't feel mad or upset on the day that I came home and saw what happened (ok... may be I will when it’s time to pay for the cabinet door). Instead, I was kind of - h*lly sh*t, we were so lucky that someone was home at the time, no body got hurt and with minimum damage.

Although I can not be sure nor have any prove if there was or wasn't any mixed brands of batteries involved in the PM6. I do want to point out a few facts:

So far, there are only two (2) brands of batteries that I actually purchased and actually in use. These are the Energizer (a few) and Surefire (mostly). I got some Universal on my last purchase from TTS but they are still in shrink warp.

As for all the flashlights (new and used) I purchased over the years, I don't remember all the battery brands that they came with. But what I have left at the time of the accidence happened were two (2) Duracell, one (1) DP and one (1) Koran made battery.

Below is a list of flashlights (CR123 type)that I have and the batteries that they were equipped with at the time of the accidence:
- Surefire L4 with Pila 168 battery.
- Surefire KL1 on E2e body with Pila 168 battery.
- Inova X5 with 4 1/5A batteries.
- Streamlight Scorpion with no battery
- PM6 with 5W LED McModule with two (2) Energizer batteries.
- PM6 with one Surefire and one unidentified brand of batteries.
- UKE-2L with either no battery or a mix of Duracell and DP batteries.
- Mr. Bulk VIP with a Surefire battery.
- FF1 with a Koran made battery. (This is the one that my wife usually uses but misplaced and now found)
- FF2 with a Surefire battery.
- Surefire E1e with no battery.

Additional, all new Energizer batteries are in their individual packaging, all new Surefire batteries are in the original plastic zip lock bag (4 packs) that came with the order (TTS). Other than the 2 slightly burned batteries( Duracell and DP), the only loosely placed CR123 batteries are one (1) Surefire and one (1) Duracell that I placed along with my E1e in another box in another room.

I guess what I am trying to say is that although there is always a chance that there was a mixed brands of batteries in the PM6; but the likelihood is that there wasn't.

As for the possibility that someone replaced only one battery, I don't believe so. The wife already gave me the rolling eyes when I told her someone suggest that she use water to wash the dogs’ ears and water somehow got into the flashlight. However, Sliverfox have an excellent point about educating your family and friend about the danger if doing so. I know I will.

Ron

beezaur · #**170** 03-10-2005, 12:16 PM

js,

You can measure current and get a better idea.

I disagree with Size15's conclusion that the batteries were mixed. After spending the last hour or so going over those pics (I'm home sick today) I can't see where any such conclusion is founded.

It is a semantics thing, but I would not use the sacred word "conclusion" unless absolutely sure. From what I have seen and read, I wouldn't even put the probability of mixed batteries over 50%.

I think we know about as much as is knowable, short of testing the debris in a lab.

Thanks, Ron, for being so open with this incident. I for one have learned a great deal here. No telling how many old and mismatched batteries were removed from flashlights because of this.

Scott

SilverFox · #**171** 03-10-2005, 01:24 PM

Hello Ron,

Thanks for the update.

I don't think we will ever be able to fully understand what happened, but our "grasping at straws" has uncovered several ways that we can make our usage of Lithium powered lights safer.

My family and I thank you and your wife for sharing this event and putting up with our endless questions. Our household is safer as a result of this discussion.

Tom

Size15's · #**172** 03-10-2005, 01:48 PM

These are the two batteries from the PM6. They do not appear to be the same to me.

StuU · #**173** 03-10-2005, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
js said:
I'd say that if you have any odd cells lying around, do exactly as SilverFox did: place them in a bag for use with single 123 lights only.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was doing..but after reading this thread, I decided that it's not a good idea to have a bunch of used CR123s thrown into a container. In fact, I started thinking about 2 batts shorting and the whole bunch firing up.

I finally decided to tape over these used batteries to insure against any unwanted shorting out.

beezaur · #**174** 03-10-2005, 04:11 PM

I can't look at those pictures and say they are different. Maybe I am missing something.

After spending another couple of hours with it all I can say is that when I remove all red and magenta after several iterations of color enhancing, I can see bluish-green parts of what might be letters on one battery where the known Surefire has gone completely to gray. But that color difference could be entirely due to charring, and the "letters" are approximately the same size as those on my own Surefire batteries.

I can email the pic if someone wants to put it up: [email deleted].

Scott

beezaur · #**175** 03-10-2005, 05:07 PM

Al, I think I have to apologize.

I have no freakin' clue what it is you are seeing, but I think I found a square and most of a "W" in one of those images. I enhanced the color, cranked the blues and greens, and turned off the reds and yellows. I think those batts were mismatched by brand, and you are right.

big image:

small image with what I think is the match:

For what it's worth.

Scott

tvodrd · #**176** 03-10-2005, 06:18 PM

Wow! Nice piece of Photoshop forensics!

Larry

beezaur · #**177** 03-10-2005, 06:31 PM

GIMP actually -- www.gimp.org -- I'm a Linux/Unix guy.

Thanks.

Scott

RY3 · #**178** 03-10-2005, 06:42 PM

Wow. How could I not see that? I even put it under the microscope! Duh!

Scott, I am so glad that you are sick today and have to spend hours at home to do the CSI works.

You have no idea how relief I am now that we know the "cause".

Well done and Thanks

Ron

cobb · #**179** 03-10-2005, 07:34 PM

I unscrewed and checked both my my cr123 lights. Both battery tubes smelt like gasoline, but the cells looked fine. I then blew in the tubes and put the batteries back.

Size15's · #**180** 03-11-2005, 12:00 AM

No need to apologise. It's difficult to be sure (which is the problem) but your evidence is compelling. I could have been mistaken just as easily (some say I have been wrong before! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] ). I am more certain now for seeing the photos.

Thanks

Al