Heavy Ordnance

[Kestrel]

Re: .50BMG vs. 20mm

(shake head) Just shoot me man....lol.

An interesting thing to say in a thread about .50's & 20mm's...:naughty:

BTW Patriot, interesting about that M1 Garand of yours. I have a CMP Garand with a beautifully figured stock almost exactly like your upper & fore end, but my upper & fore end is rather plain. I'll try to take a photo this evening & post it. And no, I wouldn't want to trade stocks so that I could have matching plain woodwork all-around.

 

[SFG2Lman]

well now that the title is different I can add some kudos for that 30mm Vulcan on the A-10....If you look closely you will notice that the plane is just kind of haphazardly thrown together. Thats because when they built the cannon...they thought "This thing is SO awesome we need to bolt a plane to it immediately." Oh, and it can only fire sustained for 5 seconds because any longer and the A-10 will stall out and crash. A-10s have landed missing engines, wings, and other important pieces, they were almost retired before this war started and now they had proved to be the "Abrams of the sky."
:bow::bow::bow:

 

[Patriot]

Re: .50BMG vs. 20mm

An interesting thing to say in a thread about .50's & 20mm's...:naughty:

BTW Patriot, interesting about that M1 Garand of yours. I have a CMP Garand with a beautifully figured stock almost exactly like your upper & fore end, but my upper & fore end is rather plain. I'll try to take a photo this evening & post it. And no, I wouldn't want to trade stocks so that I could have matching plain woodwork all-around.

I thought someone would catch the intended relation there...


Thanks Kestrel, I would very much enjoy seeing your stock set. It's easy to pick up two closely matching pieces for your M1 to have it matching. Mines a "shooter" so I wasn't to concerned about it. Looks decent already.

1wrx7
I picked up a Korean era Garand whose previous owner decided to do a flat black job on all of the wood:thinking: Maybe it looks better than the finish that was on it but, I've been drooling over replacing the stockset with some nice wood.

Korean....probably stamped "BlueSky" since they were a huge importer.

Regarding the paint, strip it off and see what you've got under there. If it's greasy you can steam the wood or soak it in stripper. Heating in the oven will also press much of the grease and cosmoline out, if it's even needed. Chances are you've got a beautiful chunk of walnut under that paint. My father and I rebuild M1s, Enfields and 03's so we've got a lot of experience with stocks. I was going to send some picures of his stocks when I get the chance.

 

[Patriot]

Oh, and it can only fire sustained for 5 seconds because any longer and the A-10 will stall out and crash.

The A10 is certainly a crude exotic.

The gun thrust thing and stalling is actually just a myth though. It produces about 10,000lbs of recoil thrust or just slightly more than what one of its two 9000lb thrust engines provide, thus the A10 still has 8000+ lbs of thrust remaining to allow it to sustain speed or actually accelerate from a low air speed. Even if the gun were to produce twice the thrust or the engines half the thrust, essentially creating equilibrium, aircraft don't instantly stop moving forward once all thrust is stopped. The kinetic energy allows them to continue flying until drag eventually overcomes lift. After that, since altitude is stored energy, the pilot simply lowers the nose some to regain that stored energy while remaining above stall speed. As you can see, even 5 seconds of gunfire is relatively insignificant.

Although the pilot could empty the entire magazine if he wanted to, they limit their firing to 1-2 second bursts due to barrel heating. A barrel set only has a life span of about 35,000 rounds or about 5000 rounds per tube. Plastic sleeved ammunition adds to the barrel life but because of the rifling, high velocity rounds and heating, life span is relatively short.

 

[KC2IXE]

well now that the title is different I can add some kudos for that 30mm Vulcan on the A-10....If you look closely you will notice that the plane is just kind of haphazardly thrown together....snip...

NOT thrown together at all, but yes, designed around the gun - the next big features - the "Titanium bathtub" - the pilot sits in a VERY thick Ti tub!!

Other features - most parts are interchangeable port/starboard - rudders, ailerons, engines, etc

The Engines are up high so that the airplane can be refueled/rearmed "hot" with the engines running - they are also designed so that they exhaust goes out over the horizontal Stabs, and between the rudders, so that the IR signature is reduced. It's also the first Attack/Fighter to use a high bypass engine to lower the IR signature

It's designed to fly with 1/3rd of the wing missing along with 1 engine, one rudder, and a horizontal stabilizer. Almost all controls are tripple redundant control wise

One little detail - did you know that the gun is off center, so that the barrel that is firing is on the center line of the aircraft. This requires that the nose gear be offset to the other side!!

The Hog has been one of my favorites since I was a kid, when I used to watch wing/engine assemblies be trucked for Republic Airport (Farmingdale Long Island - there is a Costco and a movie theatre where the plant was) out to Maryland

I actually have a Tool Crib chit for the Maryland plant sitting in my tool box.

I also know a few people who worked for Republic back in the days when they were building "the Lead slead" - aka the Thud, aka the F-105

 

[SFG2Lman]

there is nothing cooler than hearing one of those out in the iraqistan, knowing they have your back is always comforting

 

[Kestrel]

Re: .50BMG vs. 20mm

Thanks Kestrel, I would very much enjoy seeing your stock set.

Here you go, sir:

There is a wonderful 'deepness' to the figure that photos can't quite capture, the appearance changes at different viewing angles as though you were looking into the wood. A very beautiful piece and my best-looking stock. Not bad for a $320 CMP issue rifle.

I picked up a Korean era Garand whose previous owner decided to do a flat black job on all of the wood:thinking: Maybe it looks better than the finish that was on it but, I've been drooling over replacing the stockset with some nice wood.

Regarding the paint, strip it off and see what you've got under there. If it's greasy you can steam the wood or soak it in stripper. Heating in the oven will also press much of the grease and cosmoline out, if it's even needed. Chances are you've got a beautiful chunk of walnut under that paint.

That was my experience as well, the layer of Cosmoline was dried on, appearing almost black. A few hours, some WD40, and some fine steel wool, you can see the result above.:huh:

Edit: I had actually used Hoppe's #9 to remove the Cosmoline, not WD40.

 

[SFG2Lman]

what kind of wood is that? is it the regular wood or did you put a new stock on it? thats gorgeous!

 

[Kestrel]

what kind of wood is that? is it the regular wood or did you put a new stock on it? thats gorgeous!

The person who ran our CMP program thought that it was maple, and it is an original issue U.S. Govt. stock.

 

[Patriot]

The person who ran our CMP program thought that it was maple, and it is an original issue U.S. Govt. stock.

Very sweet looking rifle there Kestrel. I really like it. Hopefully it shoots as good as it looks. Any yeah, that is maple. Not only great looking but tough as nails. Thanks for sharing.

 

[LukeA]

Uncle Sam used Walnut pretty much exclusively. (until he ran out, then he used birch).

That could be a maple stock (judging by the lightness of the grain on the bottom of the buttstock), and it could be an issued stock, but I have a tough time believing the factory wouldn't have discarded that blank because of the figuring. Undulating grain patterns cause figure like that and also make the stock's strength unpredictable, especially at the wrist. That said, I'm not saying it wasn't issued. But I've never heard of a maple issued stock. Or a stained issue stock, for that matter.

Now, if you want that rifle to really turn heads, go to Lowe's and pick up a can of Formby's Tung Oil in gloss. Sand the stock to the bare wood and wipe a coat on with a piece of cloth twice a day for a week. After every other coat, rub the stock down with 0000 steel wool followed by a tack cloth. Then follow with some furniture wax.

 

[Kestrel]

Uncle Sam used Walnut pretty much exclusively. (until he ran out, then he used birch).

That could be a maple stock (judging by the lightness of the grain on the bottom of the buttstock), and it could be an issued stock, but I have a tough time believing the factory wouldn't have discarded that blank because of the figuring. Undulating grain patterns cause figure like that and also make the stock's strength unpredictable, especially at the wrist. That said, I'm not saying it wasn't issued. But I've never heard of a maple issued stock. Or a stained issue stock, for that matter.

Now, if you want that rifle to really turn heads, go to Lowe's and pick up a can of Formby's Tung Oil in gloss. Sand the stock to the bare wood and wipe a coat on with a piece of cloth twice a day for a week. After every other coat, rub the stock down with 0000 steel wool followed by a tack cloth. Then follow with some furniture wax.

Well, as I received the decomissioned rifle directly from the US Govt. Civilian Marksmanship Program, it should be an issued stock. Also, it has the correct Ordnance Department inspector cartouche, also indicating it as such. The action and stock matches the following description perfectly:
Springfield armory:
S/N 4,320,000-6,099,905 June 1953-June 1957
Department of Defense Acceptance Stamp (Eagle with 3 stars) .50" by .50". Other stamp used on the stocks was the circled 'P' proof mark (with serifs) on the pistol grip.

I also have all the original CMP paperwork that I received from the US Government which accompanied the rifle.

Regarding the finish, I rather like a matte finish rather than glossy. In addition to keeping it 'as issued', I prefer my rifles to be nonreflective.

 

[LukeA]

Well, as I got the decomissioned rifle directly from the US Govt. Civilian Marksmanship Program, it should be an issued stock. Also, it has the correct Ordnance Department inspector cartouche, also indicating it as such. It matches the following description perfectly:
Springfield armory:
S/N 4,320,000-6,099,905 June 1953-June 1957
Department of Defense Acceptance Stamp (Eagle with 3 stars) .50" by .50". Other stamp used on the stocks was the circled 'P' proof mark (with serifs) on the pistol grip.

Also, regarding the finish, I rather like a matte finish rather than glossy. In addition to keeping it 'as issued', I prefer my rifles to be nonreflective.

I wasn't denying it wasn't issued. I was just saying that it was uncommon.

Tung oil also comes in matte. According to the CMP (topic 1), tung oil and linseed oil were the finishes used on USGI issued rifles.

It's a rotten shame to leave wood like that under that USGI dipped finish.

 

[Kestrel]

Very sweet looking rifle there Kestrel. I really like it. Hopefully it shoots as good as it looks. Any yeah, that is maple. Not only great looking but tough as nails. Thanks for sharing.

Doing some online research, I came across a photo of a birch M1 Garand stock (ignore the handguard) that is of similar appearance to my stock (very similar tones & figure, just less pronounced), perhaps my stock is birch after all?

 

[DieselDave]

I didn't notice it mentioned as I read most of the thread but one if not the primary reason for high rate of fire is tracking time. You want to get on target and off as quickly as possible for a few reasons. 1. People will be shooting back at you so the longer you hold a constant angle the easier you are to hit. 2. Keeping your site on target while traveling 400-900 feet a second (depending on aircraft) is not easy. The term is "target fixation", fixate to long and you run out of altitude. It's killed many aviators. With the Vulcan, get the pipper on target, squeeze for 1 second and start your recovery.

 

[Patriot]

I think you guys are both correct about it being birch. The grain looked a lot like maple, it's just that it was darker. I figured it was dark because there was a dark stain on it but birch makes sense now. Good call guys.

DieselDave
I didn't notice it mentioned as I read most of the thread but one if not the primary reason for high rate of fire is tracking time. You want to get on target and off as quickly as possible for a few reasons. 1. People will be shooting back at you so the longer you hold a constant angle the easier you are to hit. 2. Keeping your site on target while traveling 400-900 feet a second (depending on aircraft) is not easy. The term is "target fixation", fixate to long and you run out of altitude. It's killed many aviators. With the Vulcan, get the pipper on target, squeeze for 1 second and start your recovery.

Yeah, absolutely. It's almost as if by the vary nature of aerial guns that a high rate of fire is necessary, simply because it's a moving platform. Pitch and yaw of a few degrees plays a large bearing on where rounds impact downrange when considering even stationary targets. Add to that the fact other aircraft are small and fast moving, sometimes at high aspect angles, and it's no wonder the gaps between shots must be kept close together.

 

[KD5XB]

Since this thread is about heavy ordnance, I want to relate what I was told in Marine Corps boot camp back in 1977 -- that somebody had come up with a nuclear hand grenade, but it never went into production because they couldn't find anybody who could throw it far enough --

Maybe we could send some to the bad guys over in the desert...

 

[1wrx7]

Re: .50BMG vs. 20mm

Korean....probably stamped "BlueSky" since they were a huge importer.

Regarding the paint, strip it off and see what you've got under there. If it's greasy you can steam the wood or soak it in stripper. Heating in the oven will also press much of the grease and cosmoline out, if it's even needed. Chances are you've got a beautiful chunk of walnut under that paint. My father and I rebuild M1s, Enfields and 03's so we've got a lot of experience with stocks. I was going to send some picures of his stocks when I get the chance.

When I bought the rifle the guy told me it was produced in the 50's. That's what I meant by Korean... I should have said Korean war era or just made in the 50's. It's a Springfield Armory M1. Is this "BlueSky" you mentioned a Korean produced M1... or would I find this stamp somewhere hidden on the rifle. Thanks for the advice of the wood. More on that below.

Here you go, sir:

There is a wonderful 'deepness' to the figure that photos can't quite capture, the appearance changes at different viewing angles as though you were looking into the wood. A very beautiful piece and my best-looking stock. Not bad for a $320 CMP issue rifle.




That was my experience as well, the layer of Cosmoline was dried on, appearing almost black. A few hours, some WD40, and some fine steel wool, you can see the result above.:huh:

Natural tigerstipes... I love it.

The black on my rifle is definately paint. It's actually a really nice paint job. The guy knew what he was doing... he also showed me some of his other refinishing while I was there I think I just want the classic look of the Garand for my rifle.


I bought a cheap WASR10 AK47 with unfinished wood on it. Picked up some sandpaper, steel wool and a bombay mohagany stain/sealer and worked on the wood. When I was done some people I showed it to though it was a $1000 rifle I had a lot of fun doing it. I think I'll try redoing the M1 next, the pics you guys showed have pushed me to the brink...

Thanks again for all the advice guys.

 

[Patriot]

A couple of good videos for the 20mm Phalanx (CIWS) in action. Some impressive hits on incoming missiles. There is some tracer footage at the end of the second video. I just they were just doing that for testing possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6nm-6eCzM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wArPao03q68&feature=related

 

[tvodrd]

Interesting thread. I built a .50 BMG single shot rifle, and have a piece of 20mm barrel and a few hundred furnace-popped inert slugs. I'll build somthin once I finish my move to Hawthorne, NV. Hawthorne has an ordnance museum and is more or less surrounded by what was the largest ammo dump in the country.

As to big guns, I got to watch the New Jersey shoot off the coast of Cua Viet in 1969.

Larry