Dealing with Ignorance regarding vehicular lighting on other Automotive Forums

[Alaric Darconville]

And call it "research".

Also, because they worked the parts counter and sold replacement light bulbs, they "worked in the automotive lighting industry".

 

[Drclaw]

example, at least someone is suggesting going the OEM route is legal as opposed to a retrofit.

http://www.f150online.com/forums/il...13-ford-oem-hid-headlights-now-available.html

 

[ryukin2000]

At the end of the day, it's just another person who doesn't know any better. I used to get annoyed and worked up over it but the ignorance of lighting application doesn't define them. They could be the nicest person in the world or the worst person in the world. I don't know them personally so I don't want to invest too much emotions into it. Plus it gives me a reason to wear my sunglasses at night. Joking aside, I get more worked up when drivers don't know how to drive. so on a scale of 1-10 in terms of driving me nuts it would be around 6. 10 being getting cut off on purpose or speeding dangerously in out of traffic and 9 being public booger picking with no shame….window down and really digging for gold and then proceeding to flick it in my direction. Of all the times I've been "blinded" by plug and play kits, its caused me to squint and make comments but never has it caused me to drive blind. I agree that it should be banned and education is what these people need and not aggression. I read somewhere in another forum that if someone saw one more plug and play kit they would go into road rage and take a bat to the car. That person to me would be more dangerous than the ignorant lighting driver.

 

[Hilldweller]

We had an ice storm last night and the drive to work this morning had some dicey spots.
But people were driving considerately, humanely. And progress was good.
Then I got blinded by the lifted 2500 diesel with HID retros in his headlights and foglights. All turned on for full glory. It was like a supernova.

Nah. I think it's a good pet peeve. At another point in my commute that could've landed me in a pond.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

At the end of the day, it's just another person who doesn't know any better.

And sometimes, people in the vicinity of that person who doesn't know better will not live to see the end of the day, as that person who doesn't know better might cause a wreck with his unsafe lights. Or maybe the person who doesn't know better IS the person who doesn't live to see the end of the day.

It's not the original ignorance that's the egregious part-- it's the *willfull* ignorance, wherein they deliberately ignore the truth and facts and data before them and think they know better. That kind of ignorance DOES define them.

 

[wrcsixeight]

It appears I have been put in my place, on the automotive forum where I wasted my effort typing.

Here are some quotes to my response.

Fog lights are not just fashion accessories. They work very well in inclement weather, as the article you posted explains. They also happen to be very good at lighting low, wide, and near, which is very handy when driving off road in the pitch black.

I'd posted a link to Daniel Stern's page about fog lights.
So much for reading comprehension.

In referring to how well humans think they can see, as to how well they can actually see, this was the response.

This is complete trash, and only your opinion. The pictures I posted speak for themselves. The LEDs definitely produce more light than the stock halogens.

Hmm Ok, obviously the point was completely missed

My words:

LED bulbs inserted into incandescent housings, are as unwise as HID bulbs in incandescent housings. They cannot be properly aimed, their glare to oncoming drivers is obnoxious. They are simply illegal and dangerous and a foolish choice.

The Response:

Spoken like someone who does not drive my vehicle, never has, and never will.

Darn, that was my one goal in life.

I ranted about cloudy lenses and glare a bit more

His words:

In testing your theory, by driving toward another vehicle at night, nobody who I conducted this test with had any complaints at all about glare, or being blinded. Your theory is just that; theory. Your opinions are just that; opinion. The only comments I've gotten on these lights is that they are very nice

As the people backed slowly away...


I ranted a bit more about my contempt for these ignorant lighting 'upgrades' and the anger they inspire.

Response:

Stop driving, because they're not going away any time soon. You sound like a very bitter person. You need to make some changes in your life to be a happier person.

Ouch, where did my pride just go? Well I can't argue those points, glad I did not have to pay a professional for those words.

After posting how better forward lighting could be obtained by charging voltages reaching quality bulbs in properly aimed headlamps, I got this response:

Guess what? You're not the King of Earth, nobody has complained about any of the conversions I have performed into halogen housings, and nobody is going to stop me, because nobody cares. Except you, of course. Keep whining, and I'll keep driving.

I think this sums it all up nicely... What everyone here has said regarding what is to be expected when trying to enlighten the Nimrods we share the roads with. Hopefully they are too obsessed with themselves to vote.

 

[jaycee88]

It appears I have been put in my place, on the automotive forum where I wasted my effort typing.

I understand your frustration. I learned a long time ago it's futile to argue about automotive lighting on forums, so I don't bother. People simply refuse to accept that headlights are precision optical instruments, not merely car-mounted flashlights.

If someone on a forum asks me personally what headlights I'm running, I'm happy to tell them, but when I see someone post about their phenomenal HID or LED headlight bulb 'upgrade', I just shake my head, laugh to myself at their pics, and move on.

I'm glad a forum like this one exists, where the BS is kept to a minimum and real, objective advice is given out. And thanks to people like Virgil and Alaric for 'sweeping' the forums religiously - surely it must get tiresome to repeat oneself over and over again.

 

[-Virgil-]

So, in summary: You asked if it was worth trying to educate people who do stupid things with their car lights. You got a unanimous "no" answer. You went ahead anyhow and got flamed -- now who could possibly have ever seen that coming? ;-) I guess some lessons just have to be learned directly.

 

[-Virgil-]

I'm glad a forum like this one exists, where the BS is kept to a minimum and real, objective advice is given out. And thanks to people like Virgil and Alaric for 'sweeping' the forums religiously - surely it must get tiresome to repeat oneself over and over again.

You're welcome. Stop calling me Shirley!

 

[wrcsixeight]

Well the actual sequence of events were I posted over there regarding LED in halogen housings, then came over here and started this thread. Then the pointlessness of informing the ignorant was obvious.

Then later the ignorant on the other automotive forum decided to attack my words.

No matter, the words of a nimrod hold no weight with me. I found it amusing to see how you all predicted the response.

Been there done that Eh?

I should have known better.

I know of one very intelligent person who is planning on installing HID's into Autopal housings. It is a subject we can no longer discuss if we wish to remain friendly.


He is also trying to find Ba 15d base LED's for his signal markers, but so far has tried and eliminated many E bay offerings for the obvious reasons. He has been doing the walkaround from distance and angles and finding drop outs, and not enough difference between running and brake 'filaments'. I pointed out the Phillips 1157 LED's as the likely best candidate, but he wants dazzlingly bright brake and signals.

Hopefully he can view the HID in autopal housings in the same objective manner and choose a different path.

 

[-Virgil-]

I know of one very intelligent person who is planning on installing HID's into Autopal housings.

That doesn't sound very intelligent. Neither does ignoring well-cited facts about the matter. Are you sure about him being very intelligent?

It is a subject we can no longer discuss if we wish to remain friendly.

Are you sure you want to remain friendly with someone who intends to go out and threaten people's life and limb?

I pointed out the Phillips 1157 LED's as the likely best candidate, but he wants dazzlingly bright brake and signals.

So far I'm not hearing any evidence of this guy's supposed intelligence.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

It appears I have been put in my place, on the automotive forum where I wasted my effort typing.

So, in summary: You asked if it was worth trying to educate people who do stupid things with their car lights. You got a unanimous "no" answer. You went ahead anyhow and got flamed -- now who could possibly have ever seen that coming? ;-) I guess some lessons just have to be learned directly.

There's the scene in Napoleon Dynamite concerning the "time machine". That suddenly just came to mind. (Well, it only sortof applies. But BOY that scene is funny!)

That doesn't sound very intelligent. Neither does ignoring well-cited facts about the matter. Are you sure about him being very intelligent?

Are you sure you want to remain friendly with someone who intends to go out and threaten people's life and limb?

And isn't that the odd thing about human relationships? If we all in-real-life-unfriended anyone that do something stupid, we'd have no friends at all!

 

[270winchester]

...and the charging system in some cases...

Reminds me of an HID that I returned to stock this one time. Guy took it upon himself to hack it in there. He jimmied a chassis ground to a part that was only connected to chassis by 2 bolts. One thing led to another, somewhere a short, a fry. His improvised chassis ground burned like a burnt match stick. I snapped it in half with my fingers, only tugging gently.

Okay I just have to ask, as someone who has installed wiring harness in almost every car owned, I was always able to find at least one factory bolt that grounded. How did he do it to cause a short?

 

[-Virgil-]

And isn't that the odd thing about human relationships? If we all in-real-life-unfriended anyone that do something stupid, we'd have no friends at all!

True, but I think there's a difference between "Oops! Aw, dangit, I shouldn't have done that, that was stupid" (every one of us has done it; it happens, we're all human) and "Shut up and stop trying to show me facts, I've made up my mind to do this thing and I don't care how stupid or dangerous it is" (deliberate endangerment of self and others is not "intelligent", it's sociopathic).

 

[TEEJ]

True, but I think there's a difference between "Oops! Aw, dangit, I shouldn't have done that, that was stupid" (every one of us has done it; it happens, we're all human) and "Shut up and stop trying to show me facts, I've made up my mind to do this thing and I don't care how stupid or dangerous it is" (deliberate endangerment of self and others is not "intelligent", it's sociopathic).

I'd agree if I thought they DIDN'T care, but, at least for the one's I know, it more akin to what Hild said about their confidence in their own abilities simply leaving them not knowing what they don't know.

IE: They don't think their unsafe mod is unsafe, they think you're wrong about it, and that they're right.

That's not being a sociopath, that's just being wrong.

They don't think you are showing them facts, they think you're showing them things that must be wrong because they are in conflict with their own common sense.

You can't argue from authority with someone who considers themselves an authority.

It doesn't make them less dangerous than the sociopath in this context, as the end result is the same. I just think that the motivations are different.




So, all sorts of cool mods are considered pure genius in some circles.

They feel its an improvement, we might think otherwise.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

You can't argue from authority with someone who considers themselves an authority.

You shouldn't argue from authority, period. It's one of the logical fallacies.

 

[ImagioX1]

Maybe you could link them to a photo showing the difference in an hid arc and a filament bulb and point out how it will never work. I have some pics i took of the two side by side somewhere.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Maybe you could link them to a photo showing the difference in an hid arc and a filament bulb and point out how it will never work. I have some pics i took of the two side by side somewhere.

Or point them here. Then they can see the pics and very pertinent information.

 

[ImagioX1]

Or point them here. Then they can see the pics and very pertinent information.

Yep thats one of the best articles on the net that describes exactly why HID's shouldnt be run in a reflector or projector that wasnt designed for them.

I do have to admit that some vehicles headlights are marginal or even NOT safe even with everything is perfect working order. I have personally driven vehicles with the best bulbs available and freshly polished lens and the strain and stress of driving at night was unbearable. I have always struggled with the choices there are for such cases but an oem projector retrofit is honestly the best option. While technically not legal a retrofit done right can be made just as safe as a car that comes with oem HID's. The only other choice is to buy a new car which is generally not an option LOL

 

[-Virgil-]

I do have to admit that some vehicles headlights are marginal or even NOT safe even with everything is perfect working order.

This is not very common.

I have personally driven vehicles with the best bulbs available and freshly polished lens and the strain and stress of driving at night was unbearable.

Keep in mind, though, that how well we think/feel we can see is not well aligned with how well we can actually see. There are headlamps that give adequate safety performance that are uncomfortable to drive with, and headlamps that are very comfortable to drive with that give inadequate safety performance. We humans are poorly equipped to accurately assess how well we can see (or how well a headlamp works).

I have always struggled with the choices there are for such cases but an oem projector retrofit is honestly the best option.

No, it is not. Those are illegal and unsafe; details here. Rule 11 of this board prohibits advocating illegal or dangerous activity, so you will need to stop now. Also, keep in mind that rule 6 prohibits shilling, and given that you offer projector "retrofit" and modification services, you are treading very close to violating that rule, too. Especially since you offer projector modifications specifically designed to increase the glare they produce on low beam (your "prism star" modification), you are kind of on quicksand arguing about safety. Watch your step, son.

While technically not legal a retrofit done right can be made just as safe as a car that comes with oem HID's.

That is not correct, and they're not "technically illegal", they're illegal, plain and simple.