Identical run-time projections on different power settings?

[OldmanRon]

Hi Guys,

This seems like the best forum to ask my "run-time/batteries" question. Perhaps there's an electronic whiz out there who can solve something that's puzzling me.

There's something that I don't understand about my new-model (2017) Petzl Tikka. The literature on both the box and the Petzl website clearly states that the projected run-time is identical for both the middle-power 100 lumen setting and the high-power 200 lumen setting. It is 60 hours for both. That doesn't seem to make sense to me, based on my mediocre knowledge of electricity and physics.

Could somebody please explain the "howcome" of this to me?

There are just the three settings, with the 5 lumen low-power setting having a projected 240-hour run time. The high setting is just a regular high setting ... not a turbo or burst mode that defaults back down after a short period of time.

Here's a link to the "New Products" section of the Petzl website that I mentioned.

https://www.petzl.com/CA/en/Sport/New/TIKKA#.WHabdrEZOis

Thanks in advance.

Ron

 

[scs]

Hi Guys,

This seems like the best forum to ask my "run-time/batteries" question. Perhaps there's an electronic whiz out there who can solve something that's puzzling me.

There's something that I don't understand about my new-model (2017) Petzl Tikka. The literature on both the box and the Petzl website clearly states that the projected run-time is identical for both the middle-power 100 lumen setting and the high-power 200 lumen setting. It is 60 hours for both. That doesn't seem to make sense to me, based on my mediocre knowledge of electricity and physics.

Could somebody please explain the "howcome" of this to me?

There are just the three settings, with the 5 lumen low-power setting having a projected 240-hour run time. The high setting is just a regular high setting ... not a turbo or burst mode that defaults back down after a short period of time.

Here's a link to the "New Products" section of the Petzl website that I mentioned.

https://www.petzl.com/CA/en/Sport/New/TIKKA#.WHabdrEZOis

Thanks in advance.

Ron

200 km/hr for 2 hrs, then 50 km/hr for 4 hour = 600 km traveled over 6 hrs.
100 km/hr for 6 hrs = 600 km traveled over 6 hrs.

 

[OldmanRon]

Ummm ... I don't think them numbers are relevant to energy consumed in this "steady-state" situation. And I think "distance traveled" is irrelevant. Rather, imagine this ... two identical 5hp Honda engines sitting on a workbench side by side ... full tanks ... fired up simultaneously. One is run at full power and the other at half-throttle. Would they have similar run-times?

Or just do as one wag suggested to me. Buy two brand-new Petzl Tikka headlamps ... a red one and a blue one. Insert the fresh included Duracell AAA batteries. Turn on the red one and set it at 200 lumens while your buddy simultaneously turns on the blue one and sets it to the 100 lumen setting. Start the timer instantly. Sit (in alternating shifts) and watch them closely until they more-or-less die. Record the times.

I think that the answer to my question has something to do with high-tech electron flow/management.

But thanks anyways.

 

[scs]

Ummm ... I don't think them numbers are relevant to energy consumed in this "steady-state" situation. And I think "distance traveled" is irrelevant. Rather, imagine this ... two identical 5hp Honda engines sitting on a workbench side by side ... full tanks ... fired up simultaneously. One is run at full power and the other at half-throttle. Would they have similar run-times?

Or just do as one wag suggested to me. Buy two brand-new Petzl Tikka headlamps ... a red one and a blue one. Insert the fresh included Duracell AAA batteries. Turn on the red one and set it at 200 lumens while your buddy simultaneously turns on the blue one and sets it to the 100 lumen setting. Start the timer instantly. Sit (in alternating shifts) and watch them closely until they more-or-less die. Record the times.

I think that the answer to my question has something to do with high-tech electron flow/management.

But thanks anyways.

Ron, the light probably doesn't maintain constant output for the stated runtime.
It stays in the 200 lumen mode for a short while then either steps down to a lower output or begins a steady decline. In the 100 lumen mode, it maintains constant output for longer but eventually does the same. Throw unregulated, nonconstant output into the duration of the stated runtimes and differences/inconsistencies in how total runtime is measured, then it's not surprising that different modes can have identical stated runtimes. Does my previous comparison make more sense now?

 

[OldmanRon]

Ron, the light probably doesn't maintain constant output for the stated runtime.
It stays in the 200 lumen mode for a short while then either steps down to a lower output or begins a steady decline. In the 100 lumen mode, it maintains constant output for longer but eventually does the same. Throw unregulated, nonconstant output into the duration of the stated runtimes and differences/inconsistencies in how total runtime is measured, then it's not surprising that different modes can have identical stated runtimes. Does my previous comparison make more sense now?

Yes, thank you very much. Just 30 minutes ago I discovered that the "Classic" Tikka line was unregulated. For some reason, I had wrongly assumed otherwise. You'll notice that I used the term "a steady-state situation". (I think it was because I bought a little Fenix E12 at the same time and it has a regulated output ... and I guess I got them mixed-up and/or conflated in my mind.)

Click on the orange "How to Choose" button in this link, and the "Standard Lighting" graph at the bottom of this link says it all ...

https://www.petzl.com/CA/en/Sport/CLASSIC-headlamps#/How-to-choose?

I think that your explanation and that graph would both suggest a two-horse race (with perfectly-matched horses) with a photo finish.

CLANG! - Northern Dancer explodes full-tilt outta the starting gate but soon starts to flag at the first turn ...

Same CLANG! - Oldman Ron semi-bursts outta the gate and starts to semi-flag just past the start a the back stretch ...

Somewhere in the middle or end a the back-stretch the semi-flagged Oldman Ron draws level with Northern Dancer and (now both equally flagged) they enter the home-stretch side-by-side ... and they remain side-by-side to that aforementioned photo-finish.

Thanks again for the follow-up.

 

[StorminMatt]

This is actually quite common with many lights. Some lights also indicate only marginally longer runtimes on higher modes vs lower modes, which is pretty much the same thing. The reason for this is stepdowns. Many lights will run on the highest mode for only a minute or two or three before dropping to the next lower mode. This is sometimes done so that longer runtimes can be advertised (which is clearly deceptive). But it is also often done on higher power lights to prevent overheating. In any case, the key 'take home' here is that the runtime for the highest mode is mostly the same as the runtime for the next lower mode because that's the mode actually being used for the bulk of the discharge cycle.

 

[OldmanRon]

This is actually quite common with many lights. Some lights also indicate only marginally longer runtimes on higher modes vs lower modes, which is pretty much the same thing. The reason for this is stepdowns. Many lights will run on the highest mode for only a minute or two or three before dropping to the next lower mode. This is sometimes done so that longer runtimes can be advertised (which is clearly deceptive). But it is also often done on higher power lights to prevent overheating. In any case, the key 'take home' here is that the runtime for the highest mode is mostly the same as the runtime for the next lower mode because that's the mode actually being used for the bulk of the discharge cycle.

Hey Matt,

Thanks for chiming-in. I totally understand what you're saying, but I'm now sure (unlike before) that the basic $30 Tikka doesn't have any high-tech pre-programmed step-downs. They don't mention the concept anywhere, and a quick glance at the line graph reveals the nice curve of a smoothly dropping lack of performance. Much like me walking up a nearby mountain ...

I still think it's a helluva deal. Knowing this new info, I'll just carry three spare Duracells in the pricey little Petzl carrying-case that I stupidly splurged-on.

I'd prefer to have a six-pack of AAA Eneloops, but just try to track-down that NASA-spec item in The Great White North! (I already have eight AA Eneloops ... bought years ago for my Fenix lights ... and their proprietary Sanyo 4-cell charger ... and, as most folks here already know, it's a great combination.)

Thanks again.

Jaysus Christ ... the gas-fired furnace just finally stopped to catch its breath ... it's -28 now ... balmy ... but it was -37 this morning (with a 35 km/hr breeze that Environment Canada somehow did not know about). They said Calm.

Ron

 

[hiuintahs]

.............There's something that I don't understand about my new-model (2017) Petzl Tikka. The literature on both the box and the Petzl website clearly states that the projected run-time is identical for both the middle-power 100 lumen setting and the high-power 200 lumen setting. It is 60 hours for both. That doesn't seem to make sense to me, based on my mediocre knowledge of electricity and physics.

Well, you are absolutely correct that it doesn't make sense. 100 lumens requires less current than 200 lumens and so its impossible that they would have the same run time. One of these specs is wrong. All things equal, such as a constant regulated output, the 200 lumen output would draw the battery power down in half the time. Actually its a little worse since the lumen vs current relationship isn't exactly linear. I just don't trust manufacturers specs....not until I test it myself with the light meter.

I think Princeton Tec and Petzl have gotten behind once the good flashlight companies started to make headlamps. If you are OK with 3xAAA headlamps, the Fenix HL25 is under $30 at Fenix-store insider deals since its now discontinued. It's very well regulated.

 

[OldmanRon]

Hey HUINTAHS in Utah,

Thanks for adding-into this chatter ...

I was wrong / careless .... The "Classic" model of the Petzl Tikka is NOT a regulated device. Just (please) go back and read the preceding posts ...

Ron

 

[hiuintahs]

Hey OldmanRon, nice country you live in. Took my honeymoon up through Banff and Jasper many, many years ago. I guess I am oldmanhiuntahs now. Every time I get on the freeway (I15) around here, I see Alberta plates and I'm guessing they're headed to warmer weather down south.

Ya, I just wanted to point out that you were correct in assuming something was wrong with the specs. Even with a non-regulated output..........if it starts from a higher output..........it still should not last as long as the one that starts at a lower output. So I'd take the run time with a grain of salt and the only way to really know is to do a test at each level and check how long a battery lasts. Fun stuff .

 

[OldmanRon]

Hey OldmanRon, nice country you live in. Took my honeymoon up through Banff and Jasper many, many years ago. I guess I am oldmanhiuntahs now. Every time I get on the freeway (I15) around here, I see Alberta plates and I'm guessing they're headed to warmer weather down south.

Ya, I just wanted to point out that you were correct in assuming something was wrong with the specs. Even with a non-regulated output..........if it starts from a higher output..........it still should not last as long as the one that starts at a lower output. So I'd take the run time with a grain of salt and the only way to really know is to do a test at each level and check how long a battery lasts. Fun stuff .

Hey Hiuintahs,

How in hell do you pronounce that name? It's already too hard to spell ...

Small world ... I got married in Banff in 1971. My girl-friend and I had worked at Chateau Lake Louise in 1970 and 1971. Took a Brewster Bus to the wedding ... all four of us), and got comped to the best room/suite at the Banff Springs Hotel ... a sister CP hotel...

Honeymooned in August to Tofino on a 650 Yamaha ... the marriage lasted 30 years.

The Petzl specs weren't wrong ... they just casually left-out (glossed-over) some a the crucial specifics. But, like I wrote, I know that now and just carry a few spare batteries ...

A couple a weeks ago I learned that my Voilé avalanche shovel (which I swear I've had for at least 25 years) is made in Utah!

Ron

 

[hiuintahs]

Hey Hiuintahs, How in hell do you pronounce that name? It's already too hard to spell ...

It's a take on the high Uintas which is the highest mountain range in Utah.