1/2 watt resistor for P7?

bikenjam

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i was looking at setting up a 4D maglite with a p7 and a resistor. My question is when i looked at the resistors at the local radio shack, they were all rated for only 1/2 watt. Now I'm assuming that with the desired 8-11 watts that i'd be looking for with a 4-5 ohm resistor that this would just fry the resistor, right? If so, how to you wire this up properly?

I did use the search but i couldn't find the answer i was looking for.
 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=217381
similar but different see the last few posts at least

you can use "power resisters" which come in many flavors, i found some that had FINS on them online , because of the fins, they could handle more power in a smaller size, and they would screw/rivet mount to another surface too, to sync out some of the heat off of them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Dale-250-Ohm-10-Watt-1-Fixed-resistor-RH-10-Used_W0QQitemZ280310927094QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item280310927094&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A2%7C294%3A50
stuff that looks like this, (not the right values) i think its used in power amps, for audiofiles and stuff, these will handle a lot and still stay cooler.

then there is the big ceramic type Wire Wound 5w and 10w resister you see in the other thread, that you can still get at local parts stores.

combining resistance made easy (sorta):
the other way is to get the 1/2 watt, or the metal oxide 1 watt, and make a Parrelel bundle, depending on the application and location, a bundle of many lower wattage resisters, can be synced to the case easier, or fit in a place, and or get more air across them.

when choosing, prefer to NOT use the carbon type , and prefer to use the wire wound, as they are the most reliable when overheated, the other kinds can LOWER in resistance when overheated or burnt out, making things go badly faster and faster as the resistance goes down.

If they are getting really hot or are really close to the wattages needed through the resister, instead of highly overrated, make sure you leave a bit of leg out of the resister before the next connection, so it doesnt melt the solder at the connection, if it should get that hot. Do wire twists or wire wrap, so if solder comes loose the connection is still held.

Potting to get the heat of the resistance out of the light:
you can do stuff like JBweld (my version of potting) them around the barrel of a light to get the heat OUT. :grouphug: the heat going out the flashlight case.

Combining resisters Math:
to parellel, many smaller resisters, you just do some math, like this
|---------{~4~}----------|
|---------{~4~}----------|
|---------{~4~}----------|
|---------{~4~}----------|
the four 4 ohms there tied together parellel will make up 1ohm.

|---------{~4~}---------|----------{~4~}----------|
these two 4 ohms in series will make up 8 ohms

and you can still
|---------{~1~}---------|----------{~1~}----------|
|---------{~1~}---------|----------{~1~}----------|
series parellel them too, this makes up 1ohm still, 2 in series 2 in parellel.
and basically each one of any of these combos will spread the wattage of resistance or heat through all of the pieces, so the above digram, in a 1/2watt type would handle ~2watts of total power.

then there are some minor factors, one resister can take more of the heat than the other when they are off from eachother a bit in resistance , the % of accuracy, but basically it works out just as well to use fat high powered, as it does to use metal oxide multiples , depending on the space you have available.

and overrating the wattage handling a LOT when space is avalalble to do so, is always a good idea. so if you really only need 2 watts power handling, and can get a 10Watt in the space, then certannly do so, it wont change the resistance factors just the heat handling.

another way could be to just drop some voltage itself, which in this situation is not as good, but will work ok. get one of them 25AMP bridge rectifyers, and run through at least one Diode in the thing, they are big , its overrated well, and they are potted and sincable so they will handle the heat of dropping about .6-.7volts too, or through the whole thing it will drop twice that voltage , that will lower the total current flow, but not specifically control the current, its different, and will work, but not better in this case.

and dont forget lots of the connections switches , and wiring in a light will already be adding in some resistance, and the BATTERY that you use will be limited in total output too, depending completly on the battery type and age, and condition etc, so you might get away with less resistance than you think., especially with alkalines.
 
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Now you understand why I had some custom 1206 size resistors made for the "Breeze" flashlight in my sig line.

The space I had to work with is quite small, and no "normal commercial resistor" in a reasonable size would work.

1206 is quite small (about the size of a rebel) but these babies can deal with 50 watts. - yes, that is correct. Complete overkill for the 1 - 2 watts I needed, but reliability is a big deal for me.

I have some left from that project if you are interested - send me a pm. (2, 10, 30 ohm)

Take care

HarryN
 
i was looking at setting up a 4D maglite with a p7 and a resistor. My question is when i looked at the resistors at the local radio shack, they were all rated for only 1/2 watt. Now I'm assuming that with the desired 8-11 watts that i'd be looking for with a 4-5 ohm resistor that this would just fry the resistor, right? If so, how to you wire this up properly?

I did use the search but i couldn't find the answer i was looking for.

You might recheck your numbers -- assuming you're running 4 NiMH, you'll get about 5W total, and about 1W of that is dissipated in the resistor.

And if you are running a higher voltage pack, and your numbers work out right for that, you should really get a buck converter instead of using a resistor; you'll at least double the runtime.

EDIT: Also, resistor-drive means not only poor efficiency (mitigated with low voltage difference), but also bad brightness dropoff as the battery discharges. Linear regulators, such as 8 or 9 amc7135, will get you the same efficiency as a resistor drive at thne beginning, but they keep the drive current constant (actually improving efficiency) as the battery voltage falls, until it drops too low to maintain that current; then they go into direct-drive, so brightness rolls off with further discharge. If you are running 4xNiMH, they're really a much better choice.
 
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Hi Benson - Thanks for posting that info.

Can you do look at my numbers just for my own sanity check ?

4 x NiMH under a 4 amp load is around 4 x 1.1 volts = 4.4volts.

P7 at 1 amp Vf is around 3.5 - 4 volts - so let's use 3.8 volts Vf.

Vexcess = V bat - Vf = 4.4 - 3.8 = 0.6 volts (approx)

V = IR, so 0.6 = 4 x R, so R = 0.2 ohms

Power lost to the resistor = VI = 0.6 x 4 = 2.4 watts.

Power to the LED = 4 amps x 3.8 volts (Vf) = 15 watts.

2.4 / 15 + 2.4 = 14 % losses - on average. (I think) That is not as good as a really good buck converter, but not terrible either.

Someone - please double check my math for me on this.

Your suggestion for the AMC LDO is a pretty good one. Do you happen to know if the cap on the input side can be deleted on a battery driven application ?

Thanks

HarryN
 
I would be running alkaline batteries because i would be building these to give to friends who don't deal with chargers. I know a driver would be better but i have not found one that will take 6V and give the output i want for a reasonable price.
 
Can you do look at my numbers just for my own sanity check ?

4 x NiMH under a 4 amp load is around 4 x 1.1 volts = 4.4volts.

P7 at 1 amp Vf is around 3.5 - 4 volts - so let's use 3.8 volts Vf.

Vexcess = V bat - Vf = 4.4 - 3.8 = 0.6 volts (approx)

V = IR, so 0.6 = 4 x R, so R = 0.2 ohms

Power lost to the resistor = VI = 0.6 x 4 = 2.4 watts.

Power to the LED = 4 amps x 3.8 volts (Vf) = 15 watts.

2.4 / 15 + 2.4 = 14 % losses - on average. (I think) That is not as good as a really good buck converter, but not terrible either.

Someone - please double check my math for me on this.
I check you. :thumbsup:

Your suggestion for the AMC LDO is a pretty good one. Do you happen to know if the cap on the input side can be deleted on a battery driven application ?
No caps needed -- I'm using 2 of the DX 1400mA boards for 2.8A, and they don't have any. Actually, if you want 8x, KD has a 2.8A unit that's 2 of the same 1400mA boards presoldered back-to-back; I hadn't seen it when I did mine, so I just ordered 10 boards and stacked two myself. (Oh, well, spares are good to have for other projects...) You should be able to piggyback extra AMC7135s on top with either of these options if you want more than 2.8A drive, and don't want to try stacking 3 boards; for your suggested 4A drive, I'd just stack 3 1.4A boards, and maybe remove one chip. (I probably wouldn't; in fact, I keep threatening to piggyback one more chip to get up to 3.15A, even though I know I won't be able to see the difference...)

I would be running alkaline batteries because i would be building these to give to friends who don't deal with chargers. I know a driver would be better but i have not found one that will take 6V and give the output i want for a reasonable price.
The AMCs are quite affordable, but they can't do anything to pull the voltage up. Alkalines suck at even moderate current levels; the internal resistance is enough that the voltage lowers substantially. You get about 20 minutes, IIRC, before it drops out of regulation with 8xAMC7135; you do get about 3 hours of usable runtime, but it gets progressively dimmer from 20 minutes out, and falls below 50% of initial output before the NiMHs are even out of regulation. It does keep running forever, though, at low brightness (8 hours or so), where the NiMH fall off more sharply when they do go. (I ran my homemade 4D P7 Mag on KOH until my NiMH Ds got here, so I did a few tests to compare.)

If I had to design one for KOH only, I think I'd go with either 4xC/4xD direct-drive (DD from 4xD sounds incredibly harsh, but I think you could get away with it -- they really are that bad!) or 5-6 x C with 8xAMC7135; the latter is about the same size as the 4D, but would keep high output a little while longer (but fall off a bit steeper afterwards). It'd also avoid cooking the LED should NiMH ever be used. Whatever you do, I'd avoid a resistor drive for this; the internal resistance of KOH cells is bad enough -- you really don't want to add extra resistance, dimming it for the whole 3-4 hours, just to regulate the first fifteen minutes.
 
Well - with D size alkalines, you might as well just use a K2 instead of the P7 and run it direct drive like a light bulb. There is just no way that 3 x D size alkalines are going to over drive a K2, and won't even come close to a P7's drive current.

I differ very slightly with Benson in that for such a simple case, a resistor is fine. The ultra easy way (not best, but very easy) is to just get some 3 D mags, load in a K2 + heat spreader and go at it.

With alkalines, run time is not going to improve enough to bother with anything fancy. Even with NiMHs, 1 - 2 ohms is plenty.
 
are you saying i could get away with a direct drive P7 using 4 D alkaline batteries?
 
are you saying i could get away with a direct drive P7 using 4 D alkaline batteries?

The slightly complicated answer - probably. Double check the P7 ratings for current to make sure it can handle 1 amp per junction. A bench test is probably worthwhile, and good heat spreading is a must.

Now here is the part that makes this either "fun" or a "PITA". If the P7 blows - is it a big deal to you or not ? If so, then be conservative. If you want to hot rod, then sometimes the engine needs a little more maintenance.

If you have not purchased the P7 yet, then I would consider to use a LEDEngin 10 watt part instead - you can buy them from mouser.com. It is a bit more robust.
 
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The slightly complicated answer - probably. Double check the P7 ratings for current to make sure it can handle 1 amp per junction. A bench test is probably worthwhile, and good heat spreading is a must.
The P7 is only rated at 750mA max per junction. They've been successfully overdriven above 4A, though, and handle it fine, given good thermal connections. I think the DD will do fine with any of the normal P7 heatsinks, but haven't tried it.

IMHO, though, designing KOH-only lights is a waste of time; people who won't use a battery charger don't deserve nifty flashlights. :D
 
IMHO, though, designing KOH-only lights is a waste of time; people who won't use a battery charger don't deserve nifty flashlights. :D

You have to walk before you can run. Gadget Lover and others helped me a lot before I started getting serious about lights and building my own from scratch.
 
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