18650, 21700, 16650 -- How much do you really want?

idleprocess

idleprocess

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All in all I think this size won't be easily adaptable to existing devices it will take a new size of device to properly house it.
Similar diameter to a quad-18650 beer can, but obviously a nominal 15mm longer. So it could feasibly work with revised existing designs provided the tube is extended and accommodation made for different contacts.

However, I'm aware that these formfactors are not terribly common, thus clean sheet designs are likely.

I think overall the price and power density and cost per watt hour would be the main consideration for battery packs as industry is well used to scads of 18650s in a brick to power everything these days so unless the 4680 offers higher power density or huge current outputs is needed current 18650 and 21700 packs would suffice already.
In the event the formfactor gains traction outside of Tesla (and is made available with the claimed advances), the appeal may be the same that Tesla sought: reduced complexity that comes with lower cell count. Possibly not relevant in to the power tool industry as we know it today, but with the growth of 'lithium power stations' industry is moving past the boundaries of laptops, power tools, and battery banks.
 
Lynx_Arc

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Similar diameter to a quad-18650 beer can, but obviously a nominal 15mm longer. So it could feasibly work with revised existing designs provided the tube is extended and accommodation made for different contacts.

However, I'm aware that these formfactors are not terribly common, thus clean sheet designs are likely.


In the event the formfactor gains traction outside of Tesla (and is made available with the claimed advances), the appeal may be the same that Tesla sought: reduced complexity that comes with lower cell count. Possibly not relevant in to the power tool industry as we know it today, but with the growth of 'lithium power stations' industry is moving past the boundaries of laptops, power tools, and battery banks.
I think that if the power density and cost per watt hour is better than other form factors we could possibly see them in other devices but there is a lot of new options on the market for electric car batteries like blade batteries and flat pouch type batteries may be a big thing in tools and for small battery spaces may be a lot more suitable than cylindrical cells.

I've heard of new chemistries of batteries out there but I've heard of miracle battery claims in the past 10-15 years that never came to pass. I think most devices these days are heading towards lithium ion based battery power for the time being with the exception of cheap devices that favor alkaleaks. I saw a review on youtube of a guy I think in the UK that picked up a bunch of what looks like disposable electronic cigarettes or vaping gadgets that actually were sealed up not made to be recharged and had inside 500mah lithium ion pouch type batteries in them which sort of surprised me that they wouldn't include a charging circuit and a micro usb port in the device for that type of battery.

I'm thinking that if another chemistry battery with similar or better performance comes on the market that is cheaper to make we may see it start to make inroads as the huge push ahead on electric vehicles may find the market for batteries to power them taking up the manufacturing capacity and supplies to make them as lithium is not getting easier to find from the little I've heard.

As I've used nimh for almost 20 years before I replaced it mostly with lithium ion perhaps it will suffice for the next 20 years for most things I have.
 
idleprocess

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I think that if the power density and cost per watt hour is better than other form factors we could possibly see them in other devices but there is a lot of new options on the market for electric car batteries like blade batteries and flat pouch type batteries may be a big thing in tools and for small battery spaces may be a lot more suitable than cylindrical cells.
If you're an automaker whose name doesn't end in -esla, you're buying custom cells - be they pouch or prismatic flavours. Seems that if you're everyone else you're generally ordering commodity cells of some flavour - be they cylindrical, prismatic, or pouch; the latter having considerable variety from the battery industry.

I would personally just like to see some 4680 lights - either in the spotlight, light grenade, or lantern genres - assuming the cells are released to the public and meet the hype.
 
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turbodog

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I recently bought an 18650 light that was smaller than a popular 123-based light. So there's that aspect also.

Emitters keep improving... so the need/novelty of larger cells will drop over time.
 
desert.snake

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3*46800 or 4*46800 would be cool for bike lights and miner's lights. I mean flashlights in which the battery pack is placed on the bike frame or in a separate bag. After Tesla, perhaps these elements will go into electric bicycles and electric scooters.

1642521723059

1642522184792




Such an element will ideally fit inside such a camping lantern, only modern with LEDs. I mean the idea - both focused light and general light. I see cheap chinese lamps, but they fail pretty quickly, usually 4*AA inside or now 2~4*18650 set to non-removable
1642522018762
 
Dave D

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I choose the battery that best suits the function of the light in question.

IMG 5418


L - R 16650 18650 21700

My charger will fit them all so I don't limit myself to just one cell size.

The batteries don't get made for flashlight users so we are fortunate that other applications require their development and we can take advantage of them all.
 
Lynx_Arc

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If you're an automaker whose name doesn't end in -esla, you're buying custom cells - be they pouch or prismatic flavours. Seems that if you're everyone else you're generally ordering commodity cells of some flavour - be they cylindrical, prismatic, or pouch; the latter having considerable variety from the battery industry.

I would personally just like to see some 4680 lights - either in the spotlight, light grenade, or lantern genres - assuming the cells are released to the public and meet the hype.

I think that competition among electric car makers may get really tight in the future such that we will see both the cost of cells drop and the cells that are the cheapest per watt with acceptable performance will be cranked out in huge quantities and in that effort the will end up over time powering anything that can take advantage of them. As we are seeing 12 and 15Ah tool batteries and large 36/40, 60, and 80v max type battery packs and now I've seen on the market a lawn mower using 2 12Ah 20v batteries the volume of such packs could perhaps fall right in the range of the 46800.

I think these power stations that are becoming more and more popular even replacing gas generators in a limited fashion is going to be more and more a driving factor in the use of these type of batteries. I'm hearing more and more about power outages due to excessive power demands on the grid not around me but in other states such that if one could suffice with a $500 power station able to run a lot of smaller stuff for a day or two off batteries we will see sales. I know in California the push is to ban small gas engines of all types and likely that could mean banning gas generators totally and the need for power stations that could take advantage of these large 46800s with 25Ah capacity could sell like hotcakes if the price was not totally insane as they likely wouldn't have any other choice unless they could backfeed the power of electric cars through their house to power things somehow.
 
idleprocess

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I think these power stations that are becoming more and more popular even replacing gas generators in a limited fashion is going to be more and more a driving factor in the use of these type of batteries.
Like power tools, these 'power stations' need a degree of robustness that a laptop or tablet doesn't. They're going to be lugged around, used outdoors, run hard, and otherwise tax the electrical/physical/environmental margins of their cells. With the market in flux, commodity cells that can be integrated into a design that's apt to be on and off the market relatively quickly are apt to be the choice of successful brands.

There's absolutely a value to lowering part count in such devices so long as it doesn't impact performance: fewer cells, fewer balance leads, fewer sensors, simpler charging circuits.

Of course, it's far from a given that TSLA's 4680 will be used. LFP chemistry is already grabbing market share for its robustness - not necessarily requiring a cylindrical cell - and longer cycle life than more conventional chemistries.

I know in California the push is to ban small gas engines of all types and likely that could mean banning gas generators totally
The legislation directing the regulator to formulate rules prohibiting the sale of new generators ('small off-road engines' in the law) did contain a significant caveat (emphasis added):
(a) (1) By July 1, 2022, the state board shall, consistent with federal law, adopt cost-effective and technologically feasible regulations to prohibit engine exhaust and evaporative emissions from new small off-road engines, as defined by the state board. Those regulations shall apply to engines produced on or after January 1, 2024, or as soon as the state board determines is feasible, whichever is later.
Given that lithium 'power stations' are presently quite expensive and extremely limited in their capabilities relative to the common gas/LP/NG generator I don't know that regulator will be outright banning their sale at the first bit of the apple; if they do I expect it to start with the smallest models.

This subject is however best suited for a different venue as further conversation is apt to be quite divisive.
 
Lynx_Arc

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Like power tools, these 'power stations' need a degree of robustness that a laptop or tablet doesn't. They're going to be lugged around, used outdoors, run hard, and otherwise tax the electrical/physical/environmental margins of their cells. With the market in flux, commodity cells that can be integrated into a design that's apt to be on and off the market relatively quickly are apt to be the choice of successful brands.

There's absolutely a value to lowering part count in such devices so long as it doesn't impact performance: fewer cells, fewer balance leads, fewer sensors, simpler charging circuits.

Of course, it's far from a given that TSLA's 4680 will be used. LFP chemistry is already grabbing market share for its robustness - not necessarily requiring a cylindrical cell - and longer cycle life than more conventional chemistries.


The legislation directing the regulator to formulate rules prohibiting the sale of new generators ('small off-road engines' in the law) did contain a significant caveat (emphasis added):

Given that lithium 'power stations' are presently quite expensive and extremely limited in their capabilities relative to the common gas/LP/NG generator I don't know that regulator will be outright banning their sale at the first bit of the apple; if they do I expect it to start with the smallest models.

This subject is however best suited for a different venue as further conversation is apt to be quite divisive
I think in order for the 4680 to take off and be useful we would have to see more than Tesla use it, or factories set up to make massive amounts of them and other car makers adapt the tech such that it becomes more mainstream. I'm thinking more and more tool companies that use18650 and 21700 battery packs are getting to the point that the market has ballooned and that they are starting to invest money in research on batteries and could somehow be a source of new battery tech more so than the powerstack battery by Dewalt which is new but the power density and cost effectiveness isn't going to for now replace 18650 and 21700 packs.

It is possible the 4680 could be a consideration for the growing upper power demand these days with 12 and 15Ah tool batteries becoming more and more sought after a possible next step is a larger cell size. I'm not sure a tool battery maker would want to invest in a battery plant making an inbetween size for now as unless it uses some sort of patentable tech other companies could similarly do the same but I got to thinking a 3x2 4680 24V pack or even a 2x2 16v pack could be a consideration in things vs having 15-20 18650s or 21700s you could use 6 2680s instead.
 
scout24

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18650 is plenty for me. I have no need to invest in another ecosystem of cells and lights. They're at the limit for me for edc pocket carry, and given current emitters, they will run a LONG time at useful outputs. I'd rather see emitter technology progress than have bigger cells for the sake of bigger. I'm aware that a 2 liter soda bottle holds more than a 20 oz bottle, but have no desire to carry one around with me or invest in new cupholders for my truck. Your mileage may vary.
 
idleprocess

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other car makers adapt the tech such that it becomes more mainstream
Other automakers are having batteries made to their specifications. Upsides: potentially lower cost per nominal Wh and far fewer components on the bill of materials; downside: harder to adapt to advances in battery tech.
 
Lynx_Arc

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Other automakers are having batteries made to their specifications. Upsides: potentially lower cost per nominal Wh and far fewer components on the bill of materials; downside: harder to adapt to advances in battery tech.
Yeah likely we will see higher performance in battery tech glossed over for higher capacity, longer lifetime, and cheaper costs will be the norm of the electric car industry which could mean 4680 batteries may end up a little more than a footnote in battery history for the most part while 18650 and 21700 will be around for at least the next decade I believe as unless we get a huge advancement in battery tech that encourages people that have heavily invested in cylindrical cells to upgrade. I personally have a lot of 18650 tech now from power banks to tool batteries to laptop battery pulls to flashlight and other lighting now and as I look back on things I've been using for 20+ years that used other battery types and chemistry etc I've only upgraded and replaced those when I actually needed and profited from changing.

18650 adaption in my life has made things a lot easier, less time consuming, less space consuming, more reliable, All the problems I had with 1.5v cells in series and alkaline and nimh tech have been mostly solved by 18650s and the problems I have now with 18650 batteries likely are too few and too insignificant to encourage me to adopt a newer battery tech to totally replace them. It would take a lot to entice me perhaps double capacity in half the size with a lot greater cycles/lifetime and perhaps a higher voltage for a single cell also. The one drawback of lithium ion for the time being is USB is great for charging them but they need a boost circuit to power USB devices and with USB based charging offering higher voltages like QC and PD if we had a 6-8V single cell and chargers for the batteries that use fast charging higher voltage protocols it would be more ideal and could replace lithium ion altogether for that reason.
 
Megalamuffin

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The capability of a 21700 is pretty awesome to me. I have a fenix pd36r and olight warrior 3 and find them really easy to carry. It’s nice to have such pocketable options for long runtime on high brightness. Great lights to carry at work. I am a big fan of 21700. That said they are also not my first choice.

18650’s are probably the goldilocks of size and performance. There are so many compact high performance lights that take an 18650. A dual fuel 18650/cr123 light is an ideal setup and doesn’t really lack anything.

I use 16650’s all the time because my favorite lights are P60 surefires and e series. It is a nice battery size and I don’t feel it’s worth modifying my surefire’s for a little extra capacity that an 18650 gives; the 16650’s are very adequate. I like this battery size a lot and am glad they’re around to use in previously cr123 only lights.
 

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