AA with 2500mah or greater

ColorMaker

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Nov 3, 2007
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I am building 12 volt 2500mah battery packs using 10 AA. I have tried several bands but most have come in at less that 65% of there rated value. I have tried UANO, Powerizer, Tenergy with poor results. Sanyo are to pricey can anyone suggest a brand ?

JM
 
Powerex 2700's, but they cost the same as the Sanyo 2700's. Both will come in close to rated capacity, with the Powerex having the edge.

Edit: Just saw you said 2500, not 2700. People have had problems with the Sanyo 2500's developing high self discharge. Don't know much more than that about 2500's.
 
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I need at least 2500. 2700 would be even better but cost is a issue. Where is the best place to get 2700 I need about 2000 of them.

JM
 
I am building 12 volt 2500mah battery packs using 10 AA. I have tried several bands but most have come in at less that 65% of there rated value. I have tried UANO, Powerizer, Tenergy with poor results. Sanyo are to pricey can anyone suggest a brand ?
When you say 65%, 65% of 2500 is 1600 or so. That is much lower than any expectation. How are you measuring the capacity?
 
Hello JM,

To get a usable 2500 mAh from the a cell, you are going to have to go with 2700 mAh cells. GP, Sanyo, and Powerex seem to be performing well at that capacity but I think the GP 2700 cells are actually rated at 2500 mAh.

It is too bad you couldn't get by with 2000 mAh capacity. Panasonic makes some great cells in that capacity.

You may want to check with Kevin at www.batterystation.com and/or Steve at www.battlepack.com . They both carry Sanyo 2700 cells, and may be able to give you a little better price on a quantity order.

Also, I would order a small sample of them to check out before committing to the large order. In the NiMh battery shoot out I believe I have graphs showing what you can expect from the Sanyo 2700 mAh cells at various discharge rates.

Tom
 
Hello JM,

To get a usable 2500 mAh from the a cell, you are going to have to go with 2700 mAh cells. GP, Sanyo, and Powerex seem to be performing well at that capacity but I think the GP 2700 cells are actually rated at 2500 mAh.

It is too bad you couldn't get by with 2000 mAh capacity. Panasonic makes some great cells in that capacity.

You may want to check with Kevin at www.batterystation.com and/or Steve at www.battlepack.com . They both carry Sanyo 2700 cells, and may be able to give you a little better price on a quantity order.

Also, I would order a small sample of them to check out before committing to the large order. In the NiMh battery shoot out I believe I have graphs showing what you can expect from the Sanyo 2700 mAh cells at various discharge rates.

Tom


This is for an LED fixture that draws 400ma I would like to get at least 5-6 hours of run time.
 
I'm not familiar with that piece of equipment, but if you are only measuring 1600 mAh out of 2500 mAh cells something really seems to be wrong.

I build 2 packs and I am on the 3rd charge cycle
Cycle 1 read 4%
Cycle 2 read 29%
Cycle 3 read 65%

Hopefully when I get back to the office I will have at least a 99%

JM
 
Hello Mr Happy,

Let's look at this...

JM, it looks like, is building a 10 cell pack and testing that. With a 10 cell pack you have to pay attention to the cut off voltage. If he is using 1 volt per cell for the cut off voltage, he still may get into trouble with 10 cells. However, even if he uses 1 volt per cell, the battery capacities in the NiMh shoot out are all measured on single cells discharged down to 0.9 volts.

There is a little difference capacity between stopping the test at 1 volt verses stopping it at 0.9 volts. Also, with some cells, the end of the discharge is gradual, rather than steep, the difference in cut off voltage can make a substantial difference in reported capacity.

The next thing to look at is the cells he is testing. Those brands tend to have consistency problems from cell to cell. I have some Tenergy 2600 mAh cells that come in at 1800 - 1950 mAh, and others that come in higher. This is terminating the discharge at 0.9 volts. Some of these cells weigh a gram more than the others, and they are all labeled 2600 mAh.

In a 2 cell light, you have a little bit of a problem, but when you put 10 cells together in a pack, the problem is amplified.

I just checked my data and out of 12 2600 mAh cells, discharging down to a 1 volt cut off, 4 came in at around 2100 mAh, and the other 8 ranged from 1700 - 1900 mAh. 11 of the 12 cells show a gradual taper in voltage at the end of the discharge, and 1 cell has a very steep drop off.

If JM happened to get a similar mix, I can believe his results.

I have noticed similar results with Powerizer cells. I have never looked at UANO cells.

From the test data JM presented, I would be willing to bet that he didn't run tests in the individual cells first, and then constructed his pack from cells with similar capacities.

Tom
 
I just checked my data and out of 12 2600 mAh cells, discharging down to a 1 volt cut off, 4 came in at around 2100 mAh, and the other 8 ranged from 1700 - 1900 mAh. 11 of the 12 cells show a gradual taper in voltage at the end of the discharge, and 1 cell has a very steep drop off.
Well, golly. That seems like a bit of a lottery. With those results, one might almost consider it better to choose high quality 2000 mAh cells instead...?
 
Hello Mr Happy,

Let's look at this...

JM, it looks like, is building a 10 cell pack and testing that. With a 10 cell pack you have to pay attention to the cut off voltage. If he is using 1 volt per cell for the cut off voltage, he still may get into trouble with 10 cells. However, even if he uses 1 volt per cell, the battery capacities in the NiMh shoot out are all measured on single cells discharged down to 0.9 volts.

There is a little difference capacity between stopping the test at 1 volt verses stopping it at 0.9 volts. Also, with some cells, the end of the discharge is gradual, rather than steep, the difference in cut off voltage can make a substantial difference in reported capacity.

The next thing to look at is the cells he is testing. Those brands tend to have consistency problems from cell to cell. I have some Tenergy 2600 mAh cells that come in at 1800 - 1950 mAh, and others that come in higher. This is terminating the discharge at 0.9 volts. Some of these cells weigh a gram more than the others, and they are all labeled 2600 mAh.

In a 2 cell light, you have a little bit of a problem, but when you put 10 cells together in a pack, the problem is amplified.

I just checked my data and out of 12 2600 mAh cells, discharging down to a 1 volt cut off, 4 came in at around 2100 mAh, and the other 8 ranged from 1700 - 1900 mAh. 11 of the 12 cells show a gradual taper in voltage at the end of the discharge, and 1 cell has a very steep drop off.

If JM happened to get a similar mix, I can believe his results.

I have noticed similar results with Powerizer cells. I have never looked at UANO cells.

From the test data JM presented, I would be willing to bet that he didn't run tests in the individual cells first, and then constructed his pack from cells with similar capacities.

Tom

No I did not test each cell before assembling them into a pack of 10. Will this make a big diffrence in the total pack capacity ? At this point if I dis-assemble the pack and test what cells +- capacity should I mix for best results ?

JM
 
I have had very consistent performance from my Powerex 2700's which are now over a year old and have been used extensively. My charger still shows them at or above 2600mAh when I analyze them.
 
I have had very consistent performance from my Powerex 2700's which are now over a year old and have been used extensively. My charger still shows them at or above 2600mAh when I analyze them.


I will try them, What charger do you use ?

JM
 
Hello JM,

This gets into an engineering problem, and as you know, engineering is about living comfortably with the compromises made.

If you have cells that are inconsistent from cell to cell, you can raise the cut off voltage, but you loose capacity and performance. The next step is to "match" the cells before they are made into a pack, however, this is time consuming. I think the best bet is to purchase cells from a manufacturer that will insure you that the cells you will be getting meet your expectations, however, unless your are ordering several million cells, this is almost impossible to do.

In competition RC use, cells are matched to 1% or closer.

In less demanding use, you can match to 2 - 5%.

When I am putting together a pack, the first consideration is how many cells are going to be used. The more cells in the pack, the tighter the matching to get reliable long term performance, but with more cells there is increased variability between them. I generally match on 2% for smaller packs and 5% on larger packs in less demanding service.

For example, I picked up 20 cells to check out. One cell shorted out and one had abnormally low capacity during the break in of them, so I tossed both of these cells. Out of 18 cells, if I averaged them, then took a high value of 102% and a low value of 98%, I ended up with 8 cells that fell in that range. Out of the remaining 10 cells, I find that I have 3 (out of 4) that are matched at a lower capacity, and the remaining 6 are matched at a higher capacity.

Out of 20 cells, I ended up with 2 dead, a well matched 8 cell pack, a slightly lower capacity 3 cell pack, and a slightly higher capacity 6 cell pack, and had one left over that still worked but did not fall within any of the other ranges.

Using a very well matched pack and taking proper care of it, I can "adjust" my low voltage cut off to a lower value and still get good performance from the pack. However, if I let the pack "waste" away, I run a chance of reverse charging a cell if the pack becomes unbalanced.

Panasonic suggests a 1 volt per cell cut off for packs up to 7 cells. For a 10 cell pack they suggest using a cut off voltage of 1.2 volts per cell.

Powerstream suggests a 1 volt per cell cut off for a 10 cell pack, if the cells are matched within 3% (absolute). This means that if your lowest cell comes in at 1700 mAh, the highest cell in the pack should not be over 1751 mAh.

When I use the 3% absolute formula, I start with the lower capacity cell and work up from there for a tighter match, but you can also start with the highest capacity and work down.

My usual method is to run an average, toss the high and the low out, then look at 2% above the average and 2% below the average. This often comes very close to the 3% absolute figure.

This is where the compromises come in...

Can you afford to take the time to match your cells? For general matching purposes you can get by with a 2 hour charge and a 2 hour discharge. Let' see now, after the break in we have 2000 cells at 4 hours each = 8000 hours run time, and then you have to analyze the data.

The next question involves the quality of the cells. If I move what I consider "value" from the price of the cell to the consistency of the cell, How much is this "value" cell going to cost and can I afford it?

The next question has to do with ethics. Should I follow what the re-labelers are doing with batteries and simply inflate the runtimes expected from my battery pack, or should I advertise a minimum runtime with a replacement offered if the pack does not meet the minimum runtime? Along with this comes the question of how much is it going to cost me to replace battery packs if people are not satisfied with them.

I am sure there are more questions, but that should be enough to get started.

Also, is the current draw fixed? Is it possible to shave it down a little?

As you can see, this can get a little involved. I suppose you could say that your device will run for at least 1 hour on the battery pack and have people praising you because they are getting 3-6 hours off of their packs...

Tom
 
Hello JM,

This gets into an engineering problem, and as you know, engineering is about living comfortably with the compromises made.

If you have cells that are inconsistent from cell to cell, you can raise the cut off voltage, but you loose capacity and performance. The next step is to "match" the cells before they are made into a pack, however, this is time consuming. I think the best bet is to purchase cells from a manufacturer that will insure you that the cells you will be getting meet your expectations, however, unless your are ordering several million cells, this is almost impossible to do.

In competition RC use, cells are matched to 1% or closer.

In less demanding use, you can match to 2 - 5%.

When I am putting together a pack, the first consideration is how many cells are going to be used. The more cells in the pack, the tighter the matching to get reliable long term performance, but with more cells there is increased variability between them. I generally match on 2% for smaller packs and 5% on larger packs in less demanding service.

For example, I picked up 20 cells to check out. One cell shorted out and one had abnormally low capacity during the break in of them, so I tossed both of these cells. Out of 18 cells, if I averaged them, then took a high value of 102% and a low value of 98%, I ended up with 8 cells that fell in that range. Out of the remaining 10 cells, I find that I have 3 (out of 4) that are matched at a lower capacity, and the remaining 6 are matched at a higher capacity.

Out of 20 cells, I ended up with 2 dead, a well matched 8 cell pack, a slightly lower capacity 3 cell pack, and a slightly higher capacity 6 cell pack, and had one left over that still worked but did not fall within any of the other ranges.

Using a very well matched pack and taking proper care of it, I can "adjust" my low voltage cut off to a lower value and still get good performance from the pack. However, if I let the pack "waste" away, I run a chance of reverse charging a cell if the pack becomes unbalanced.

Panasonic suggests a 1 volt per cell cut off for packs up to 7 cells. For a 10 cell pack they suggest using a cut off voltage of 1.2 volts per cell.

Powerstream suggests a 1 volt per cell cut off for a 10 cell pack, if the cells are matched within 3% (absolute). This means that if your lowest cell comes in at 1700 mAh, the highest cell in the pack should not be over 1751 mAh.

When I use the 3% absolute formula, I start with the lower capacity cell and work up from there for a tighter match, but you can also start with the highest capacity and work down.

My usual method is to run an average, toss the high and the low out, then look at 2% above the average and 2% below the average. This often comes very close to the 3% absolute figure.

This is where the compromises come in...

Can you afford to take the time to match your cells? For general matching purposes you can get by with a 2 hour charge and a 2 hour discharge. Let' see now, after the break in we have 2000 cells at 4 hours each = 8000 hours run time, and then you have to analyze the data.

The next question involves the quality of the cells. If I move what I consider "value" from the price of the cell to the consistency of the cell, How much is this "value" cell going to cost and can I afford it?

The next question has to do with ethics. Should I follow what the re-labelers are doing with batteries and simply inflate the runtimes expected from my battery pack, or should I advertise a minimum runtime with a replacement offered if the pack does not meet the minimum runtime? Along with this comes the question of how much is it going to cost me to replace battery packs if people are not satisfied with them.

I am sure there are more questions, but that should be enough to get started.

Also, is the current draw fixed? Is it possible to shave it down a little?

As you can see, this can get a little involved. I suppose you could say that your device will run for at least 1 hour on the battery pack and have people praising you because they are getting 3-6 hours off of their packs...

Tom

Tom,
This thread has tought me more in two minutes of reading than the entire 4 weeks I have looking and threads in this forum. Thank you !

All the products we build are always rated at 70% of our accual tested rating its only way to brag out our line.

I can reduce the current draw and at this point I may have to. Cutoff is an issue and with the limited processor I have to just cuttoff using voltage. The problem is if the pack is using 400ma at max draw and I cutoff at 1.0v per cell the high current will cause to volt drop before the pack is accually discharged. But on the other had if the device is left turned on and only draws 5ma lower cuttoff will kill the battery. Durring testing I used a 1.0 v per cell and the battery accually came back to a 12.9 volt status.

You and this forum have been great please fell to comment on anything I might need to know.
 
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