Agents entrap Turners Outdoorsman customer

ledfanfromjuno

Enlightened
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Location
california
Bear with me and don't jump on me, you who think this is redundant boring information. I wrote this for the newcomers to gun ownership who aren't familiar yet with the evil works that the US government does against gun owners. Hopefully, this will keep alot of the newcomers out of trouble by awakenning them up to the practices of the former ATF which now is partof the homeland security office.

I was shooting at the angeles range in little tujunga in Southern California by LA this past week. I met a worker for the shooting range who was off duty practicing with a ton of his neighbors and his guns and rifles. Later he went home with another on duty firing line worker. He and I were discussing the book Unintended Consequences and the parts of it that were based in historical fact.

Then, he told me of his recent experience in Turner's Outdorsman's sporting good retail outlet. I assume the store was located in the Los angeles area. He said while he was talking with a salesman at the gun counter, a guy who looked like a legitimate crook walked up to him and quietly offered to sell him automatic AK47's which he had in his trunk in the car. Wisely, my friend said out loud he wanted nothing to do with this man's illegal offering, because he had read unintended consequences and was aware that this man was probably from the ATF. The ATF used to slip rubber washers into retailers glass stalls at gun shows and arrest them and prosecute them for selling silencer parts.

Another customer, who was well dressed and looked like a doctor or businessman, was a dumb idiot who believed the US government is on his side and defending his constitutional rights and he never read unintended consequences. He began drooling at the chance of buying automatic weapons and he jumped at the opportunity. My friend tried to talk sense into him but the guy didn't catch on an he handed over $500 for 3 rifles. As soon as the guy came back in with a rifle and the dumb idiot took posession of one, five federal agents busted into the store and arrested and prosecuted the poor fool.

So, I know many already know of this activity of the American Government. But I also know there are many newcomers to gun ownership who aren't aware of it. I wrote this ONLY for the newcomers.

Hopefully, everyone will read this and there won't be any more fools for the ATF or office of homeland security to prey upon.

Remember, it's not because every other gun owner is against you that they say you shouldn't do this or don't do that. It's because we all are being watched and you have to watch out for undercover ATF agents. Your government has become your enemy. Your government hates the fact that it hasn't been able to take the rest of your second amendment away from you yet. It is not trying to defend your rights. It hates your rights. American government is only concerned about how it can remove the rest of your rights without stirring up a revolt or open hostility or damaging its own legitimacy to exist.
 
Frankly, your post is a bit scary. I doubt many people here are that extreme in being anti-government. Stay away from the fertilizer.

We all know the government isn't an angel, and some organizations have many problems within them...but your last paragraph is going a bit far...

Compared to other governments in the world (I'm from China), I doubt that American government is "only out to take away all of our rights as quietly as they can."
 
Must be special entrapment rules for ATF...
They used to send teenagers, complete with suits, briefcases, and cell phones into the liquor store next to my old job and then bust the employees who sold to them.
 
Sadly, even when the federal government was my employer, other portions of that same government were my enemy. I'm not against my "government" only those parts of it that believe that laws do not apply to them.
 
There are rogue agents and rogue "offices" in almost every government agency, especially those with law enforcement or pseudo-law enforcement powers.

Still, I believe that our government is the best one in the history of this planet.

We do need to remain ever vigilant however.... and especially now and over the next few years, with the "Patriot Act" and other anti-terrorism measures that may be used inappropriately if not outright abused.
 
[ QUOTE ]
ledfanfromjuno said:
the former ATF which now is partof the homeland security office.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your fanatical ideology would hold a little more water with me if you could at least get all your facts straight. ATF was moved from Treasury to the Justice Department.

-Wick
 
The only thing scarey about this is that there are still people out there who are stupid enough to buy an AK47 out of the trunk of a car in a parking lot from some idiot they've never seen or met before. Sorry... but if you do something illegal and get busted for it, the licks are on you. Duh...
 
I actually have to agree with Sasha on this one. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
 
Proof...not some of this double or triple heresay. This sounds like usual governmental paranoia...

--dan
 
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I"m not sure about the specifics of entrapment, but your buddy should hopefully get called to be a witness for the defense of this guy. If he's as well dressed as you say he should be able to afford a good lawer and if it was really as you say I expect he'll get off on the entrapment charge. Seems that if they really wanted to entrap somebody they should pick on somebody who can't afford a good lawer, as that is pretty much a death sentance...

Get rid of the entrapment angle and I can't get too excited about it. I don't care what you're thoughts are as to WHY buying fully automatic weapons is illigal, you shouldn't get too upset when the government enforces the existing laws...
 
I can not verify this story because it was just conversation. And yes I don't like to hunt down every fact and I make many errors like the where the ATF was moved to.

But I can substantiate the next best thing. Here is a webpage of ATF abuses with the sources. I will substantiate one source on the page to add credibility to the claims of the webpage. The easiest one to prove is the Congressional record since unlike newsmedia the congress can't wipe out its records of past shows just to manipulate the public.. at least not yet.

Source webpage to be verified by sample test:
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/malaysia/1020/atf.htm

Contents of webpage to be verified (only this one page at the site.. I have not looked at anything else of theirs):

If I were to select a jack-booted group of fascists who were perhaps as large a danger to American society as I could pick today, I would pick BATF. They are a shame and a disgrace to our country.
John D. Dingell, United States Representative 1980

I took an oath. And the thing I find totally abhorrent and disgusting is these higher-level people took that same oath and they violate the basic principles and tenets of the Constitution and the laws and simple ethics and morality.
Bob Hoffman, BATF Agent
60 Minutes (CBS television broadcast), January 10, 1993

The consequences of the behavior of the BATF in these kinds of cases is that they are not trusted. They are detested, and I have described them properly as jackbooted American fascists. They have shown no concern over the rights of ordinary citizens or their property. They intrude without the slightest regard or concern.
John D. Dingell, United States Representative
Congressional Record, Page H1382, February 8th, 1995

Now, if you want a more recent event, take a look at what they did in Waco, TX. Is that a defensible event? Scores of Americans were killed because of ineptitude by BATF acting under legal process, as they said, and that whole matter is going to be suppressed after scores of Americans have been killed because of the ineptitude and crass misbehavior of the BATF.
John D. Dingell, United States Representative
Congressional Record, Page H1382, February 8th, 1995

When we testify in court, we testify that the database is one hundred percent accurate. That's what we testify to, and we will always testify to that. As you probably well know, that may not be one hundred percent true.
Thomas Busy, BATF, NFA Branch Director
In ATF training, October 1995




Verification:
Method:
Goto http://www.gpoaccess.gov/ and click the legislative resources congressional record link and then click the page number 1995 forward link and then select 1995 and enter page number h1382 as reported in the above webpage. You will be taken to a aobe pdf page of the congressional record on that page of it. It verifies the quote on the webpage.

Excerpt from the actual verified congressional record 1995 page h1382:

"Mr. DINGELL. The consequences of the behavior of the BATF in these kinds of cases is that they are not trusted. They are detested, and I have described them properly as jackbooted American fascists. They have shown no concern over the rights of ordinary citizens or their property. They intrude without the slightest regard or con-cern. Now, if you want a more recent event, take a look at what they did in Waco, TX. Is that a defensible event? Scores of Americans were killed be-cause of ineptitude by BATF acting under legal process, as they said, and that whole matter is going to be sup-pressed after scores of Americans have been killed because of the ineptitude
and crass misbehavior of the BATF. Now, let us take a look at what this legislation does. H.R. 666 says that there is no defense in the courts against that kind of behavior by BATF or anyone else. The amendment offered by the gentleman from Missouri says that BATF is not included within that rubric. They are not protected in their misbehavior and they must defend their cases on the basis of the propri-ety of their behavior as now defined under law. Remember, all that the law now says is that before you raid a man in his home you have to do it incident to a valid arrest or you have to do it with a arrest or search warrant. I do not think that is excessive in a free society, in one where we expect the ordinary citi-zen to be secure and protected in his home.
Now, what is a citizen to do if he is improperly raided under H.R. 666? There is nothing, literally nothing, that the ordinary citizen can do. The only defense which a citizen has under
this kind of improper raid by BATF or by any other agency, State or Federal, was to have the information and the evidence improperly seized suppressed. H.R. 666 sanctifies misbehavior, and it makes such yard, and such seizure of property presumptively valid. It elimi-nates any question of propriety by the authorities. Now, it is fair to say that with regard to criminal misbehavior, that law en-forcement agencies are able to and have consistently watched wrongdoers over a long period of time. They built their cases with care. Having built their cases with care, they then go to court and get a proper warrant. Then they would proceed to execute the war-rant. H.R. 666, if enacted, will be applied to the ordinary citizen, not to the hard-ened criminal, but rather to the law-abiding citizen who has a rifle or shot-gun in his closet or hanging over his mantlepiece or under his bed, and he is going to be the victim of this kind of huge hole in the fourth amendment. What it says is that a raid conducted improperly without proper warrant, or without warrant at all, is presump-tively valid, and the burden then shiftson to the defendant who has been wronged by his Government, by the agencies of his Government, acting under either no process or improper process to defend himself. The wronged citizen is compelled to retain a lawyer. He is compelled to go through a long and costly court procedure, and he can-not, under H.R. 666, get protection af-fordedhim by the requirements for aproper search. He cannot have property seized under an imperfect search war-rant,or no search warrant excludedfrom the trial. That is literally the only defense that a citizen has against improper behavior in terms of search and seizure by law enforcement person-nel."
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WOW!... I actually just read all that! And I still fail to see how it really "proves" anything... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
 
ledfanfromjuno: That sounds significantly more like a rant than a logical piece of proof. Perhaps you should move somewhere else if you think the government is after you.
 
If someone offered to sell me an automatic weapon out of the trunk of a car in the parking lot of a sporting goods outlet (or any place for that matter) I would do the following:

1. Ask to see the weapon (no $$$ ever changes hands)

2. Verify if it is in fact an automatic weapon (while noting the vehicle's license plate # in my head)

3. Politely decline the sale at return to the store or leave

4. Call the police on either my cell phone or the store's phone and report what just happened

I'd love to see the police arrest (or attempt to) an ATF agent if something like what Mr. Juno decribes actually did happen.
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ATF agent
 
I have seen plenty of cases in the last 20 yrs. citing unconstitutional behavior by the BATF including harrassing visits and survelliance of liscensed firearms manufacturers, dealers and collectors that contradict BATF's own legal operational rules and guidelines. Harrassment of and obstruction of those legally seeking licensing. Harrassment and obstruction of those employed in manufacturing aftermarket products for firearms or employed in servicing or gunsmithing and armorer trades. Illegal searches and siezures of legally obtained and stored firearms, ammunition and and or legal shipments of the aforementioned. Misrepresentation of evidence in court. Plenty of others and more documentation than you can shake a stick at! It seems to me that the BATF is one agency that truly believes that it is above the law!

There is a kid in his early to mid 20's that lives in the apartment building at the end of the block, he's an illegal firearms dealer and has been for years. Every so often the cops bust this kid and he goes away for a small vacation, but he has never served more than three months or so at a time before he's back out on the street selling his wares to criminals (he does not fear incarceration because it's probably a networking opportunity to him now). Now if an average citizen, someone who is otherwise a decent civil individual but keeps an unlicensed firearm for protection is discovered by the "system" that individual will likely see some hard time, so you see the system here releases the habitual criminal but fully proscecutes the minor offender, why, well for starters the statistics the criminal generates helps to fuel the drive to disarm the more dangerous of society (at least to the politicos) the average citizen, you and me, the ones with brains, the ones who would go the more threatening route of armed insurrection to overthrow them. And secondly it criminalises the small time offender, so the way I see it, it serves, like a double edge sword, an agenda that many folks seem to think is made up, a fabrication of a paranoid mind, but the people who fall victim to it, such as legitimate dealers and collectors, as well as unwary but otherwise normal people, will tell you different. People, People, People who owns the media outlets, how close to being monopolies are many of them and what kind of financial support for favoratism do they offer to those who are politically ensconsced? This ain't no theory here, it's plain and blatant truth, with an enormous trail of evidence and history as supporting argument.

Most anti-gun platforms don't survive the most basic disection and analysis so they are closely guarded from scrutiny by our ever faithful media watchdogs who limit and censor pro-gun argument and platform. The basic law of history is "Those that have the weapons, make the rules!" and that is why they would seek to disarm us. Anyone who refutes that principle by believing it is obsolete thinking haven't really taken a look at the world events lately and seen that a large portion of the planet still engages in political change through guerrilla insurections supported by small arms, our own troops are out there trying to stabilize areas that are engaged in civil wars or guerrilla insurgencies as I type this. So of course our govt. wants to limit our possible avenues of routing them as they come closer and closer to garnering more and more of our displeasure, they have a deeper understanding of rebellion than your average real estate agent or car salesman and do everything they can to distract our attentions from their business and guide us into giving up the shop so they can continue the tax revenue financed party. Look at England and Australia, no offense guys but these countries (including the US) are starting to resemble human stockyards where productivity for the purpose of feeding the upper eschelons is the main goal and limiting your time to reflect or even have a decent vacation with your family is boxing us in.

The Second Ammendment is the insurance policy that lends validity to all the other rights contained therein!

Ok, rant (is it really a rant if you are not angry or frustrated but want to offer a little clarity?) over! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif

TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
TSG... very well ranted! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif ... and not one bit of paranoia... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Thanks Sasha, but I forgot to type in a few sentences that I was thinking but was interupted by a phonecall so I took the opportunity to edit and at least add the word "paranoid" in there so I guess there is now a "hint" of paranoia. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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