Airless bicycle tires

[jtr1962]

I read a post here a while back about airless bicycle tires. I think a company called Zeus makes them. It seems like I'm constantly getting flats thanks to all the morons who throw tacks and beer and malt liquor bottles in the street. 90% of the time it's the rear wheel which gets the flat. Since it's such a pain in the neck to take the rear wheel off I usually get disgusted and let the bike sit a week or more before trying to fix it. Needless to say, this is seriously cutting into my fitness regimen. I still walk a few miles a day but it isn't enough. Anyway, has anyone tried the airless tires? What are the downsides? I've had my fill of flats so unless there are serious drawbacks I would like to go with airless tires. BTW, I've tried Kevlar tires already. They didn't seem to make much if any difference.

 

[Leow]

Airless tyres are not as comfortable or as efficient to ride.
They would be good for regular short journeys but not so good for longer ones.

For longer journeys I'd insert a breaker strip
e.g. "Slime Tire Liners"
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?sku=1886&siteid=pjv1c.QzcE0-xfu4wBFxonQ5LmlSgXwlkg

In a regular tyre the entire volume of air acts as an "air-spring".
In a solid tyre only the air in the foam rubber at the point of contact with the ground acts as a spring.

Hope this helps,

LeoW

 

[gregw]

Did a search on Google and found GreenTyre. They seem to have a pretty wide variety for bicycles as well. See the list here. They even have a 30 day trial period, so you can always buy a set to try out for a few weeks and return it if they don't feel right.

 

[dukeleto]

I can second the recommendation for tire liners; I haven't punctured once in town since I installed some over a year ago.
Before that, I used to pucnture around once every 2 months

Olivier

 

[Al_Havemann]

Here's one thing worth trying, especially if it's a road bike. Remove the tires, spread it open on a workbench (two people are best for this) wipe the inside of the tire down first real good with alcohol to clean them, let dry then run a strip of 1" wide, good quality friction tape all around the inside of the tire. You might want to use a wider tape for mountain tires. Dust a little talc into the inside and reinstall.

Believe it or not this works just about as well as the expensive and heavy tire liners sold at shops and weighs practically nothing. Just this simple fix probably stops 90% of the flats I used to get. It's been over three years (and two sets of tires) since I've had one.

Al

 

[Lurker]

I agree with the tire liner suggestion. Also, make sure you are starting with sound equipment such as a new inner tube, tire with sufficient tread (preferably new), and a wheel that is in good condition and has no protrusions inside such as spoke ends, etc. I like to put a wheel liner in as well. This is just a strip of plastic that separates the inner tube from the spoke nipples. Then when you install everything, put talcum powder in there to prevent any chafing between the tube and tire.

I used to be a serious cyclist, both on a road bike with narrow slick tires and on a mountain bike riding in thorny country. I have had many flats, but rode for years without a single flat once I set my tires up that way.

This sounds like a lot of trouble and expense, but really that stuff is pretty cheap and installing it is not much more trouble than doing a basic flat tire repair. The pay-off is that you do it once and ride trouble-free from then on. The thing that kills me is I see people repairing a flat tire and they try to patch an old inner tube instead of spending a few bucks on a new one. Invariably the tube gives them more trouble pretty quickly and the few dollars they saved means tearing the wheel apart once again. Penny wise and pound foolish. Same thing re-using worn out tires. Do it right the first time and be done with it.

And one other tip, always keep a spare fresh inner tube on hand. At least then the repair does not require a trip to the store and you are never tempted to patch.

 

[IlluminatingBikr]

They also make extra thick tires, that are less likely to puncture. My dad has one for his rear tire; I believe it's called an armadillo. You can also get more puncture resistant tubes, which is what I have on my bike. IIRC, the bike shop didn't recommend using both at the same time, but one or the other is fine.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

The Kevlar in a Kevlar bike tire is only in the bead, (the part that locks the tire ti the rim), so it won't make the tire more flat resistant.

The airless tires I've ridden on had two problems: they were bumpy -- lots of vibration. Also, many are made of polypropelene. Polypro has a melting temp of only ~300F so if you lock up the brakes and skid on it you may melt a flat spot on the tire that will never go away.

Here are four things that prevent flats:

1..Mr Tuffy strips.
2..Thorn-resistant tubes. (much thicker than stock)
3..Slime in the tubes.
4..Cloth rim tape. (prevents damage to the tube from the rim)

I use all, all the time except the cloth rim tape.

Be advised that all of the first three will make your bike heavier and the Slime will cause an increase in 'rotational inertia.' (Airless tires should add even more weight and rotational inertia than the above methods.) I actually use 2-3 times the recommended ammount of Slime. As part of the reason I ride is the exercise, I don't care about the weight.

I moved to these steps one at a time to prevent the constant flats I was having and I got to the point where, as I said, I always use the first three. These three things have cut my flats by at least 95%.

Start with number 1 and keep adding things until your flats become manageable.

 

[cheesehead]

There are tires with Kevlar lining the tire, these worked very well for me. When I got home I'd just pick the glass out of the tire, but never got a flat.

If it's a mountain bike, you can install 2 tubes and if one goes flat, you'll still have the other to get you home. I've never tried this, just read about it. Seems like a lot of messing around to me. The kevlar lining strips seem easier (or Kevlar lined tires, if you find them).

 

[jtr1962]

Thanks guys for the all the ideas so far. It looks like I have lots of alternatives even if the airless tires don't work out.

To answer a few questions regarding my usage, I typically ride 20 miles or less per day. I never take the bike on extended trips nor do I plan to. The furthest I'll get from home is maybe 15 miles so comfort considerations on long journeys don't concern me. My bike is a road bike with skinny high-pressure tires which I usually overinflate for less rolling resistance and more stiffness so my ride comfort is none too great even with air tires. Combining that with NYC's potholed streets and my riding style only makes it worse. Basically, I ride the way MTA bus drivers drive-I continue to accelerate regardless of street condition until an obstacle or red light forces me to slow down or stop. 30+ mph on heavily potholed streets is not unusual for me. If I slowed for every bump I'd never make good time or get a decent work out. Point of fact, I can't have my tire pressure too low or I might "bottom out" the tire and bend a rim on a particularly nasty bump. This is my main concern with switching to airless tires, which I do plan to try soon. The one on I'm considering on that site gregw linked to has an equivalent pressure of 95 psi. This should be fine for rolling resitance but will the tire give more than an air tire at 95 psi would over, for example, a pothole? I don't want to end up with badly dented rims in short order and I've heard people complain that some airless tires feel like they're riding on flats.

The melting point problem mentioned by Sub_Umbra is a minor concern for now. I adjust my rear brake so it can't lock the wheel, and I usually use my front because it has greater stopping power. In other words, I can't remember the last time I slid a tire. Traction is most definitely a concern though. Are these airless tires equal to rubber in that area? I can adjust my riding style if they're slightly worse (i.e. just take corners slower).

I'll try the tape suggestion when I repair my flat rear tire. Would duct tape work also? As for the other ideas, I've been using powder and cloth rim tape for years. I've never tried a thorn resistant inner tube. I think the problem was that most I've seen are only made to fit mountain bike tires or I would have already tried them. If the airless tires don't work out I'll give them a try. I'd still be really amazed though if all these things reduced my flats by 90 to 95% as some here claim. The amount of road debris around here is enough to drive any cyclist crazy. I've ended up with three inch nails in my tires, for example. The worst flats though are the slow leaks where the bike is fine when you put it away but not the next day. I can find and fix a big leak without taking the wheel completely off but not a slow one.

Any thoughts on taping down a piece of thin (maybe 0.005") sheet steel inside the tire? Has anyone actually tried something like this? If the airless tires turn out to be a bad product I might very well do this out of desperation.

Any airless inner tubes out there? That might be the best of both worlds if they can simulate a pressurized tube well.

 

[Lurker]

30+ mph on heavily potholed streets on skinny, overinflated tires. That's your problem right there. You are exceeding the design limitations of the tires. Any chance of switching up to a tire that is fatter and more rugged? I thought a lot of NYC messengers switched to mountain bikes for that reason. You don't have to go that far, but a change in tire size would help.

 

[PANZERWOLF]

tire liners are a cheap and good solution, since i use them, i have about 1 flat a year (was about 1/month w/o them) and then it's probably my fault (like jumping right onto a concrete edge instead of over it)

 

[jtr1962]

So you're saying that going too fast on bumpy roads can make the tires more prone to getting flats? I had actually considered that possibility. It seems I'm more likely to get flats whenever I rid really aggressively. I always assumed it was because I had less time to avoid road debris rather than because I was overstressing the tires. I suppose I could put 700x35 on my rims and/or slow down occasionally. BTW, I don't always go 30+ mph on potholed streets but I sometimes let my "lead feet" get the better of me and it does happen. My usual cruising range is 21 to 25 mph. Sometimes the road will be smooth, I'll increase my speed, and then a bumpy section sneaks up on me. The real answer here of course lies with NYC DOT but as anyone who lives here knows hell will freeze over before we have smooth roads.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

I forgot to mention that when I used to ride a lot more I would carefully look over both tires every week for tiny pieces of broken glass and pick them out. If not removed some of them will eventually work their way all the way through whatever you put between them and your air. It saves lots of trouble to just flick them out with the point of a knife.

There is Murphy's law to contend with, also, no matter what you do. Once I picked up a nail through the sidewall that was so huge it dumped the air, the slime and even stopped the back wheel from turning. Geeze...

There are thorn resistant tubes smaller than mountain bikes use, but I don't know if they exist in the hidiously small 'suicide' sizes.

 

[BentHeadTX]

I used to have flats... the last one was April 2004 and before that, September 1999. That looooooong stretch of time consisted of using kelvar BELTED tires (not kevlar beads) thorn resistant tubes for a year of that (in Korea) and I don't use racing tires.

Presently, I use a 20x1.50 (406x40) Schwalbe Marathon 100 PSI and 700Cx35 (622x37) Schwalbe Marathon Slick 87 PSI on my recumbent. My wife has been running Marathons on her recumbent for 1.5 years and has never had a flat.

While riding across Oklahoma on a week-long group ride, I heard a loud pop and crunching sound. A goat-head thorn punched into the tire, hit the belts and was crushed...no flat!

If you really don't want any flats, Schwalbe makes this monster of a tire called the Marathon Extra or something along those lines. It has a very, very thick soft stuff under the treads and it is pictured with tacks stuck in the tire. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/faint.gif They are heavy but it takes a nail gun to get flats from what I see.

I had a friend that put "air-free" things on his recumbent (he weighed 275 at the time) The problem with those things besides weight, bone-rattling ride and poor traction was they trashed his rims! When those things get hit by a pot hole, they transfer the force directly to the rim instead of cushioning the blow. After he replaced his rear wheel, he went to kevlar tires and flats rarely.

My battle wagon setup for Korea was rather insane. I used a Specialized Nimbus Armadillo (kevlar belts)35x700C and thorn resistant thick inner tubes for the rear. On the front, a Snafu Rim Job (that is the name...gotta love Freestyle names) that tire was 130 PSI 20x1.95 with kevlar belts. That combo handled riding in over 500 meters of glass. I was wondering why the dirt road had a greenish sheen and rounded a corner--straight to mountains of crushed glass at a recycling center! I picked up my recumbent, brushed the tires off and carried it away. No flats ever with that combination.

I had one flat in the last 5.5 years, a construction tack punched through my back tire so what are you going to do? My first year of riding my recumbent, my rear 700Cx28 kevlar belted tire flatted 3 times. My front Schwalbe City Marathon 20x1.25 115 PSI tire had kevlar belts also, ran it for 1.5 years without a flat.

To make this loooooooong post clear, run slightly wider kevlar belted tires and if need be, thorn-proof inner tubes. I have had great luck with Specialized Armadillo and Schwalbe Marathon series of tires. The 700Cx28 was an IRC so I avoid those.

 

[Leow]

[ QUOTE ]
jtr1962 said:
BTW, I've tried Kevlar tires already. They didn't seem to make much if any difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd recommend Panaracer Pasela Tourguard 28mm (actually 25mm) for chucking a road bike fast round pot-holed streets.

I use them through town and around rough country lanes with plenty of debris and occasionaly thorn cuttings.

I only start getting punctures when eventually the rubber tread starts wearing off the carcass.

Again as other's have said a solid tyre would probably kill your rim over potholes.
LeoW

 

[jtr1962]

I'm bumping this thread because I've starting riding a lot more lately, so I plan to give my bike a major overhaul within a month or so. First, I'll definitely be getting new wheels. I'm considering these. My main concern is that these only have 24 spokes compared to the 36 spokes I've used all my life. Is my concern warranted, or has wheel/spoke technology advanced to the point where a 24-spoke wheel can handle rough city riding? On the plus side, the 24 aero spokes instead of 36 round ones in front, plus the aero profile, should help. I plan to use my rear disc wheel cover in back as I'm doing now, so no real advantages there other than maybe lighter weight.

As for tires, I'd still like to go airless. Have any major advances happened in the intervening two years since this thread was started? Reading up on airless tires it seems like the major disadvantage for me would be higher rolling resistance, on the order of 0.015 Crr compared to perhaps 0.005 to 0.006 for a decent air tire, at least according to tests run about 2 years ago. Has this been overcome, or at least mitigated to the point where the difference in Crr is only 0.001 to 0.003 instead of 0.01? I don't want anything which will make my bike noticeably slower. A few tenths of a mph won't bother me, but I couldn't live with it being 3 or 4 mph slower for a given power input.

I'm also probably going with a 10-speed Shimano cluster (probably 11-23) in back. I know I'll need a 10-speed chain and a new rear derailleur (I need one anyway since the old one is barely functional). Now will I also need a new front derailleur and chainrings? It seems there are mixed answers on this question on bike forums.

I guess this is taking the thread a little OT but I figure this is preferable to starting another one with some of the same questions.

 

[Trashman]

Slimed tubes have worked great for me. I've sprung as many as 20 leaks on a single tube (no, not at the same time!) and the slime sealed up the leak every time. At Walmart, I've seen heavy duty (thorn resistant) tubes with slime already in them (as well as regular pre-slimed tubes), but none for skinny tires. Slime should really help a lot, though. I know what you mean by having a flat cut into your workout routine. My bike tires have been flat for a couple of years now and this whole time I've been meaning to go out and buy some pre-slimed heavy duty tires! Honestly, I've literally been thinking, regularly, about buying them! I going to buy them tomorrow....tomorrow....tomorrow.......(remember that commercial for ITT technical institute?)

 

[koala]

They are fine, in fact 24 spokes has been out for quite sometime. Also for MTB.

Try these Shimano WH-7801-SL

front/rear 16/20 spokes. They are very tough and race proven. 7801-SL is not only 16/20 there are other models as well. Other choice is Mavic 18/20 wheels, very very solid. The wheels themselves are work of art. I can stare at them for the whole day. Less spoke = less rotational weight = less drag.

First, I'll definitely be getting new wheels. I'm considering these. My main concern is that these only have 24 spokes compared to the 36 spokes I've used all my life. Is my concern warranted, or has wheel/spoke technology advanced to the point where a 24-spoke wheel can handle rough city riding? On the plus side, the 24 aero spokes instead of 36 round ones in front, plus the aero profile, should help. I plan to use my rear disc wheel cover in back as I'm doing now, so no real advantages there other than maybe lighter weight.

 

[greenlight]

This thread brings me back to about 1980, when I bout some 'no-more-flats' solid foam tire inserts for my BMX bike. They do work, and the kids don't really notice the extra jarring.

That bike was stolen from the garage, and I was upsed over it for a while. It was pretty nice, some kid is probably still riding it, and wondering how the tires stay so full.