Another car battery question

[Big_Ed]

The other night I was using one of those jump-starters to help start an old car I was selling, and it got me thinking. I remember back in the early 1990's there used to be car batteries that were marketed as "the battery with a spare". If you ran the battery down by leaving your lights on or something, you just flipped a switch on top of the battery, activating a smaller spare battery inside, alllowing you to start your car.

What ever happened to those type of batteries? It seems like it was a great idea, and would help you out of a jam.

 

[cobb]

I think the problem was that if the battery died and frozen, it ruined both batteries. I too thought it was a neat idea, but talking to people about my jump starter unit, seems about every other person owns one for incase of an emergency or to power stuff at the beach or camping.

 

[gadget_lover]

I doubt that it worked as well as you'd hope. Most batteries die from one of several causes, and many of those would also impact the "built in spare".

Deep discharge is hard on car batteries, so leaving the lights on or cranking till the battery is dead will damage the battery. Then using the smaller battery will cause that one to die too. Either way, the secondary battery will probably not outlast the main one by much.

Age is another cuplprit, and the secondary battery will age along with the main one.

I guess the point is that a well maintained car and battery will start in the first second or two of cranking. If it takes more than that, it's time to check the car or battery or both. If you are finding you need the secondary battery on a regular basis it's probably close to time to replace the battery.

Just my guess on the subject.

Daniel

 

[BB]

The other night I was using one of those jump-starters to help start an old car I was selling, and it got me thinking. I remember back in the early 1990's there used to be car batteries that were marketed as "the battery with a spare". If you ran the battery down by leaving your lights on or something, you just flipped a switch on top of the battery, activating a smaller spare battery inside, alllowing you to start your car.

What ever happened to those type of batteries? It seems like it was a great idea, and would help you out of a jam.

Good memory--I have found an article in Business Week:

Leaving headlights on all day won't faze this battery. (Developments to Watch) (column). Otis Port.

[BB: May be errors here--purposely blurred copy found on web]

Business Week n3121 (August 28, 1989 n3121): pp91(1).

Jumper cables could go the way of buggy whips, thanks to the Champion Switch car battery. It packs a one-two punch; a xxx battery plus a reserve power source, both squeezed into a case slightly smaller and 25% lighter than regular 12-volt units. The spare battery [BB guessing here: xxxx enough juice to start a car at least 29 times] even if the main battery is totally dead. Just flip the Switch and the xxxxx gives a second wind.

Developed by Australia's Pacific Dunlap Ltd., the Switch will be available this fall [BB: 1989] in the southeast. Come spring, it should be stocked by all Montgomery Ward & Co.... [end of clip found on web presentation for a small ad company]

Thomson Gale Document Number: A7862789

Looks like we would need to go to micro film archives at library to read rest of article... Don't know what happened to the battery itself.

-Bill

 

[Illum]

I know what you're talking about.

but, the spare battery can hold enough charge to start the cranking, but thats it, meaning its a smaller battery than the primary system.
Overtime technology improved, some cars nowadays have specialty circuits that cut the lights off to maintain enough charge to crank, once the car starts the breakers are reset...that sort of thing.

Not to mention the cost over time of adding in a smaller battery to what would end up as waste once the primary cell dies of old age.

I think its a good idea, but not necessarily practical. I would much rather have an auxillary battery in a molded box sitting in the trunk over having a smaller cell that gets no use and a resulting primary with a lesser capacity.

 

[cobb]

A co worker of mines just bought a new nissan altima and left her lights on. After 45 minutes the car would not crank, but just made that rapid fire clicking sound. All it took was a touch of the jumper cables from someones car and it started right up. I thought a new car like that would have something to automatically turn the lights off or electrical system to save the battery. Furthermore, I thought with a new car, 45 minutes should run the battery down that much to keep it from starting.

FYI, in mercedes and porche aftermarket magazines you see a one time use jump starter thingie that plugs into your cig plug to give it a jump.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

Part of the problem is smaller cars having smaller batteries. When I replace a car battery I do research and get the largest one that will fit for the most capacity. A lot of cars the need jump starting only have 2/3 of the battery tray filled with a battery because either the manufacturer saved a dollar or two or they owner replaced it with the cheapest that would fit... or the serviceman slapped in a one size fits all battery.

 

[cy]

most folks don't understand how a car battery works. meaning car runs on the battery, then alternator/gen replenishes what's used.

45 minutes with lights on before draining battery is excellent. car headlights is one of the largest drain. after a jump start, that alternator has to charge under full load until battery is fully charged. I've seen perfectly good alternators fail under that type of load.

when jump starting never run both vehicles at same time. hook up to dead battery, then rev motor for a few minutes to charge up. then turn off good car while attempting to start with jumpers still connected.

I've seen loads of folks replace a perfectly good battery due to alternator failure. they replace battery first, car runs for a few hours or aprox. 45 minutes with lights on. then dies, because alternator is not replenishing what current is being used.

then they still have to fix original reason battery failed. alternator is not charging...

A co worker of mines just bought a new nissan altima and left her lights on. After 45 minutes the car would not crank, but just made that rapid fire clicking sound. All it took was a touch of the jumper cables from someones car and it started right up. I thought a new car like that would have something to automatically turn the lights off or electrical system to save the battery. Furthermore, I thought with a new car, 45 minutes should run the battery down that much to keep it from starting.

FYI, in mercedes and porche aftermarket magazines you see a one time use jump starter thingie that plugs into your cig plug to give it a jump.

 

[Hallis]

most folks don't understand how a car battery works. meaning car runs on the battery, then alternator/gen replenishes what's used.

45 minutes with lights on before draining battery is excellent. car headlights is one of the largest drain. after a jump start, that alternator has to charge under full load until battery is fully charged. I've seen perfectly good alternators fail under that type of load.

when jump starting never run both vehicles at same time. hook up to dead battery, then rev motor for a few minutes to charge up. then turn off good car while attempting to start with jumpers still connected.

I've seen loads of folks replace a perfectly good battery due to alternator failure. they replace battery first, car runs for a few hours or aprox. 45 minutes with lights on. then dies, because alternator is not replenishing what current is being used.

then they still have to fix original reason battery failed. alternator is not charging...

If your car has a voltage meter on the gauge cluster, keep an eye on it. Especially after being jumped. It it's doing its job it'll be around 13-14v. If the meter reads less than 12 then that could mean a failing alternator.

Shane

 

[TedTheLed]

A built-in microprocessor chip monitors your battery. When it senses excessive battery drain, it disconnects the battery before it gets below the starting capability point.

http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?&SKU=36740

 

[goldenlight]

A built-in microprocessor chip monitors your battery. When it senses excessive battery drain, it disconnects the battery before it gets below the starting capability point.

http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?&SKU=36740

That device is a really good idea, but at $70+ shipping, it's too expensive to be practical. Also, due to the short cable, installation in todays crowded underhood environments could be difficult to impossible on many vehicles.

However, if EVERY carmaker put one in new cars, the cost would be a few dollars. Of course, battery manufacturers would scream bloody murder....

 

[J_Oei]

The Griot product (their catalog is like man-porn!) is a relabel of this:
PriorityStart

 

[eluminator]

Starting a diesel engine in cold weather can be more difficult that starting a gas engine. The air in the cylinder needs to be compressed to the point that the air becomes hot enough to ignite the fuel. When an engine gets old, the compression can drop due to increased leakage of the valve and piston ring seals.

That's true for engines without glow plugs. I'm not familiar with engines with glow plugs but I guess cold temperatures would also have an effect on these too.

 

[raggie33]

let me telll ya something ya darn whiper snaper when i was ya ages we would crank the car with a crank.and we didnt moan about it.sometime it would rip are arm off and we would just bite are lip tape are arm back on and get back to cranking

 

[TedTheLed]

yeah, and when I ripped off both my arms I installed a kick start -- worked good and I liked it that way, dag nabbit.

(man I read this http://www.prioritystart.com/ps_troubleshootingguide.html#prostandif -- frankly the problems scared me off of ever getting a Prority Start..!) (or the Griot version)

 

[cobb]

I knew a guy in rehab who had no real arms, both were fake. THey were burned off when he was working on a line and it was hit by lighting. He had a kick starter and foot operated throttle/clutch and front brakes. He basically used his "arms" to steer the bike.

 

[Eugene]

New cars take more to get them started since you now have more than just the starter to power, you now have to keep the multiple computers powered up as well as a half dozen different other sensors around the engine.
I think that is why batteries with the extra like that went away, plus most decent vehicle have some sort of run down protection or at least an alarm if you leave the lights on.
I put a second battery in my truck with the factory battery tray that would have been there if it had a diesel and then put in an isolator so they both charge all the time but discharge independently. I don't care for much of those little jump start packs since they could be worn out by the time you need it after a few years.

 

[Timaxe]

Starting a diesel engine in cold weather can be more difficult that starting a gas engine. The air in the cylinder needs to be compressed to the point that the air becomes hot enough to ignite the fuel. When an engine gets old, the compression can drop due to increased leakage of the valve and piston ring seals.

That's true for engines without glow plugs. I'm not familiar with engines with glow plugs but I guess cold temperatures would also have an effect on these too.

I had to help start a friend's diesel F350 this winter - both of his batteries were flat (even the under-hood light was barely glowing :candle: ), and it was -10f outside...a very bad combination. The internal resistance of the jumper cables was high enough that it simply could not push the 1,000+ amps required to turn his 7.3L motor over, and we didn't have a 2nd set to lay across our #2 batteries.

We ended up leaving it until it was a warm(er) +20f outside before giving it another shot...

A week later we got the jumper cables out again, and idled in my warmed up (and heated) Cummins powered Ram 3500 for a little over half an hour to charge his batteries. It barely had enough juice to turn over, but after 15 seconds of nervous cranking it fire up. After letting his truck run for 2 hours to recharge, he was able to fire up the rest of the winter.


Most of the time though, the only cars I've jumped have gasoline engines of about 2 liter displacement. And of those, 1 used a super tiny lawnmower battery successfully for a while until it got too cold to work anymore. Usually by the time the battery can't start the car, it needs replaced - unless you just left your lights/inverter/carputer/stereo on too long...

 

[cobb]

My 240d cant be jumped by another car. Not enough amps or my jumper cables, which my dad had were too wimpie. I think everyone should own a jump starter thingie. Mines is rated at 450. The one tripple A used was 600 amps.

One problem with a diesel is that you got the glow plugs to heat inaddition to turning the starter over. Mines cuts the glow plugs when you turn to crank. Some of the newer cars and trucks that are diesel they keep teh glow plugs on while its cranking and for a few minutes after it runs.