Another pitfall of LED retrofits

-Virgil-

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While I'm glad that Philips (and Osram, apparently) are working toward the possibility of universal retrofits, I do wonder whether there's a business case for them.

I'd say probably yes, given that they're on the market and under active development by companies that have a history of not screwing around with dead-end toys just to catch a fad. Functional advantages versus filament bulbs are instant rise time, very long lifespan, freedom from blackening, and much greater vibration resistance. The reduced power consumption can make issues with turn signal flash rates and lamp-outage detection systems, but can also save your forgetful butt when you come back to the car two days later and find you left the dome light (or, eventually, the parking/tail/license/marker lights) on rather than finding you left the light(s) on and the battery's dead.

Also, it's getting more difficult to justify keeping incandescent bulb production lines going. The whole lighting industry is shifting towards solid-state manufacture. Furthermore, R&D on retrofit products is synergistic with R&D on solid-state-native products.

What do you make of the move from a single Rebel (which more closely approximates a point source) to the array in the newer product?

I don't think the Vision product (with two banks of multiple small emitters) is as good a performer as the Xtreme Vision product (with one Rebel on each side). I wish there were 3157-retrofit versions of the Xtreme design. On the other hand, their 921 (W16W) is a different but equally good design; I wonder if they'll be developing that any further.

I suppose that, in a signaling lamp, focus isn't as vitally important as in a headlamp.

It is, especially with the compound reflector optics introduced a little under 20 years ago. Move the light source out of position or change its basic nature, and the output of the lamp can just nosedive. Older, simpler optical techniques are generally more forgiving, though.
 

TheIntruder

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Wasn't the benefit of shorter rise time questioned, or not as great as theorized?

I was at the parts store, and since they had the Vision product, I'm considering picking up a pair to do a direct comparison. But I received conflicting information as to whether they're returnable, and I don't know if I want to take a $30 gamble that wouldn't be applicable to anything else in the garage. To the naked eye, with the exception of the "blind spots," the XTV emulates a bulb remarkably well, down to the bright spot where the filament is normally seen.

In the continuing exchange with Philips CS, it quite clear that it's strictly Level 1. I can see the proverbial smoke coming out of their ears as they keep avoiding the direct question and have started asking other, unrelated questions that have no impact on the product characteristics.
 

-Virgil-

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Wasn't the benefit of shorter rise time questioned, or not as great as theorized?

No, though headlines on the matter were misleading. What actually happened was that NHTSA didn't find a safety benefit to cars equipped with LED stop (brake) lights vs. cars equipped with incandescent ones, largely because there wasn't enough of a data pool to look at. There have been plenty of LED stop lights introduced over the last years, but most of them also involve a change in the size, shape, position, and performance of the stop lamp and the vehicle's other safety-related design aspects. That introduces too many confounds to get a "clean" look at the effect of instant-on stop lights. The study you're thinking of doesn't imply anything (positive or negative) about the real safety effects of LED stop lights, it just means we can't tell right now. A comparable situation arose with a 1981 Canadian study of red vs. amber rear turn signals: "We can't tell; there's not a big enough pool to look at".

In the continuing exchange with Philips CS, it quite clear that it's strictly Level 1. I can see the proverbial smoke coming out of their ears as they keep avoiding the direct question and have started asking other, unrelated questions that have no impact on the product characteristics.

Yuck, I hate that. I think Daniel Stern has had some direct contact with some of the Philips engineers on that product; you might ping him and see what he can tell you.
 

TheIntruder

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No, though headlines on the matter were misleading. What actually happened was that NHTSA didn't find a safety benefit to cars equipped with LED stop (brake) lights vs. cars equipped with incandescent ones, largely because there wasn't enough of a data pool to look at. There have been plenty of LED stop lights introduced over the last years, but most of them also involve a change in the size, shape, position, and performance of the stop lamp and the vehicle's other safety-related design aspects. That introduces too many confounds to get a "clean" look at the effect of instant-on stop lights. The study you're thinking of doesn't imply anything (positive or negative) about the real safety effects of LED stop lights, it just means we can't tell right now. A comparable situation arose with a 1981 Canadian study of red vs. amber rear turn signals: "We can't tell; there's not a big enough pool to look at".

That makes me wonder how CHMSLs came to be mandated, considering the variety of vastly different implementations out there.

My earliest recollection of CHMSLs were the tacked-on fixtures on top of the trunk lids of taxis, prior to their requirement. Perhaps those particular installations were proven effective, but the results now might be different given the various interpretations available for study.

Yuck, I hate that. I think Daniel Stern has had some direct contact with some of the Philips engineers on that product; you might ping him and see what he can tell you.

No need. I obtained a pair of the Visions and to no surprise, they are polarity-sensitive. I also believe the Xtreme to be a better performer, even if the difference isn't large in a traditional smooth reflector. The comparative flood of light may suit compound reflectors better.

But more to my surprise was the fact the the Vision, despite a seemingly narrower profile, wouldn't fit deeply enough into a slightly recessed bulb holder to allow it to rotate and lock. The Xtreme didn't suffer the same issue.
 

fastgun

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TheIntruder the NHTSA says there are several hypotheses (their word) why these brakes might stimulate quicker reactions.
Based on this they mandated the item. I personally like them and like you first saw them on taxis. I went home and made one for my RV since the big boat was not noticeable enough already.
www.nhtsa.gov/cars/problems/Equipment/CHMSLCHP1.html
 

Alaric Darconville

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TheIntruder the NHTSA says there are several hypotheses (their word) why these brakes might stimulate quicker reactions.
The plural of "hypothesis" is "hypotheses". It's not "their" word-- it's a genuine real word in the English language. One hypothesis, two (or more) hypotheses.

And by "these brakes" , did you mean "these brake lights" (more accurately, "stop lamps")?

Also note that at first, CHMSLs were typically incandescent. So, the rise time was not part of the account of why CHMSLs help to reduce rear-end collisions.

I personally like them and like you first saw them on taxis. I went home and made one for my RV since the big boat was not noticeable enough already.

If you still have that RV, replace the homemade light with a good aftermarket CHMSL. Your homemade lamp might light up and all that, but does it *really* conform to SAE J 1957?
 

fastgun

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Thank you for the input. I do much prefer LED for most every lighting purpose.
SAE J 1432 would be the correct standard.
 

Alaric Darconville

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SAE J 1432 would be the correct standard.

Indeed, you're absolutely correct if your RV is 80" (2032mm) or greater (most of the "camper" type are that aren't just a glorified Dodge MaxiVan. Even the Toyota Chinooks of the '70s were much wider than the pickup truck they were based on).
 

-Virgil-

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That makes me wonder how CHMSLs came to be mandated

I don't follow your line of thinking -- how is one related to the other?. The CHMSL was shown to provide enough of a crash-avoidance effect to pass cost/benefit analysis for mandatory installation (and followup studies have demonstrated that it remains an effective and cost-effective crash-avoidance device now that pretty much all vehicles have them -- they were more effective when there was a novelty effect, but that was not the entirety of the effect). Here is another NHTSA document on the subject.


considering the variety of vastly different implementations out there.

As with pretty much all aspects of lighting regulation, there's a fair amount of flexibility in how the requirement is met. But the photometric performance isn't all that different, the biggest differences are in location (for example, at the top vs. at the bottom of a car's rear windshield). I don't know of any research looking at differences in crash avoidance performance for different locations. There has been research showing LED CHMSLs work better than incandescent ones in terms of reaction time of following drivers, but I don't think the "next step" has been taken, which would be to look at differences in crash involvement between cars with incandescent vs. LED CHMSLs. Since most CHMSLs are LED, that research probably won't be done.

But more to my surprise was the fact the the Vision, despite a seemingly narrower profile, wouldn't fit deeply enough into a slightly recessed bulb holder to allow it to rotate and lock. The Xtreme didn't suffer the same issue.

Interesting!
 
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Alaric Darconville

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I obtained a pair of the Visions and to no surprise, they are polarity-sensitive.
Bummer!

But more to my surprise was the fact the the Vision, despite a seemingly narrower profile, wouldn't fit deeply enough into a slightly recessed bulb holder to allow it to rotate and lock. The Xtreme didn't suffer the same issue.
Like -Virgil-, I find this interesting.

I was at Lowe's the other day, and saw this guy, but it looks like the same deal as with many other LEDs in that the LCL is too long. I think it's really intended for low-voltage landscape lighting (it's definitely not marketed for automotive applications, being where it is at Lowe's (on top of being at Lowe's in the first place)), and it doesn't appear to be marked for polarity.

It'd be great as a trunk light, though-- LCL doesn't mean too much there.
 

TheIntruder

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I don't follow your line of thinking -- how is one related to the other?. The CHMSL was shown to provide enough of a crash-avoidance effect to pass cost/benefit analysis for mandatory installation (and followup studies have demonstrated that it remains an effective and cost-effective crash-avoidance device now that pretty much all vehicles have them -- they were more effective when there was a novelty effect, but that was not the entirety of the effect). Here is another NHTSA document on the subject.

Interesting documents.

I was questioning their proven effectiveness based on the "cleanliness" of the study. If that factor clouded the analysis for LED vs. incandescent, or red vs. amber, then I assumed that a similar limitation could apply to CHMSLs, especially since, in my recollection, the early trunk-mount implementations were all so similar. That has certainly changed over time, so if that study was to be repeated today, with a larger sample, would the results be similar?

As with pretty much all aspects of lighting regulation, there's a fair amount of flexibility in how the requirement is met. But the photometric performance isn't all that different, the biggest differences are in location (for example, at the top vs. at the bottom of a car's rear windshield). I don't know of any research looking at differences in crash avoidance performance for different locations. There has been research showing LED CHMSLs work better than incandescent ones in terms of reaction time of following drivers, but I don't think the "next step" has been taken, which would be to look at differences in crash involvement between cars with incandescent vs. LED CHMSLs. Since most CHMSLs are LED, that research probably won't be done.

To me, the novelty of a third brake light was what was most attention grabbing. The benefits of a roof-adjacent mount also makes sense, especially given the explosion in popularity of high-riding utility vehicles.

That brings to mind a more general question -- of all the various factors involved in signal lighting, what has the most influence? Photometry? Position? State change (i.e-flashing)? Something else?

I think I read somewhere that older drivers aren't attuned as much to the illumination of a brake light, but rather the act/rise of illumination itself; a state change, which suggested that flashing brake lights might be worth considering (I hope not).

One of my pet peeves is combination functions. I prefer each function to have its own distinct position. Off the top of my head, the tail fixtures on the early Chrysler minivans was probably the worst. A reverse light, and one red light for combined stop/tail/signal.

Interesting!

I thought it was an odd situation as well. The fixture is a NAL (nee AL) CHMSL.

I didn't capture it, but I do have some other pix of the grand LED experiment if anyone is interested. I still have to figure out how to take better photos in darkness, but I think my equipment may be limited in that respect.
 

Alaric Darconville

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I think I read somewhere that older drivers aren't attuned as much to the illumination of a brake light, but rather the act/rise of illumination itself; a state change, which suggested that flashing brake lights might be worth considering (I hope not).
Probably something on the PulseProtects website. Flashing stop lamps would add too much ambiguity, and would probably result in my having an aneurism when I see a traffic jam full of cars doing that.

Now, there IS an "emergency braking" signal that Mercedes-Benz had worked on some time ago, that was designed only to work when under an extremely high deceleration. Read (slightly) more here. But then there are others who proposed such things based on anecdotes, and one in particular based on a motorcyclist downshifting to slow down and then being surprised when the following driver wasn't immediately aware of the deceleration.

One of my pet peeves is combination functions. I prefer each function to have its own distinct position. Off the top of my head, the tail fixtures on the early Chrysler minivans was probably the worst. A reverse light, and one red light for combined stop/tail/signal.
I think perhaps separate red rear turn signals bother me more than when they're incorporated with the stop and tail lamps. Going with SAE Yellow wouldn't be so hard a leap for them, would it? Are people THAT interested in style that they don't want yellow rear turn signals? (Rhetorical question: People buy red lens paint and turn their rear signals red to be "stylish".)
 

-Virgil-

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I was questioning their proven effectiveness based on the "cleanliness" of the study. If that factor clouded the analysis for LED vs. incandescent, or red vs. amber, then I assumed that a similar limitation could apply to CHMSLs

That's a reasonable question. I don't think there's much danger that yesteryear's CHMSL study results have lost applicability. The range of difference in terms of size, shape, position and photometry is much larger for the right/left stop lights than it is for the CHMSL. There is some thought that a higher-mounted CHMSL mnight be better because it is less likely to be blocked by a large vehicle, but as far as I know, there hasn't been a study done.

I think there is a bigger "upshot" from your line of thinking, though: it looks to me like the CHMSL mandate was based on a much smaller, less realistic data set than the data set which NHTSA seems to think is insufficient to mandate amber rear turn signals. Safety regulations are as much about politics as they are about safety.

To me, the novelty of a third brake light was what was most attention grabbing.

Well, yes, to repeat myself, they were more effective when there was a novelty effect, but that was not the entirety of the effect (they remain effective crash-avoidance devices even though pretty much all vehicles have them now).

That brings to mind a more general question -- of all the various factors involved in signal lighting, what has the most influence? Photometry? Position? State change (i.e-flashing)? Something else?

Ah, that we know. At short range (dense traffic, from bumper-to-bumper to something like 30 or 40 feet), it's luminance. At long range (anything above about 30 to 40 feet) it's intensity. Luminance is how bright the lamp appears, expressed in candelas per square meter. Intensity is how much light the lamp is emitting, expressed in candelas. So if we have to name just one factor that is the prime factor in the safety performance of a vehicle signal light, it's intensity. Luminance would be next on the list. However, as always, there are caveats. Luminance distribution is also important. In the past, with simple optics that all had the lens as the light dispersing surface, luminance was fairly even across the whole lamp area. You might have a bright spot in the middle (direct view of the filament) and there might be some other minor variation owing to lamp geometry or design, but not a lot. Then came "jewel" optic reflectors and "window" optics-free lenses, and while some of them give a very even luminance, many of them do not.

It is common now to see lamps that look like a few very bright lines or spots on a dark field when viewed at close range. That might or might not be creating a safety problem. I certainly find it an annoyance in traffic sometimes. One offender is the Chrysler/Dodge minivans of the design that started in 2008. More recent ones have been coming from the Kia-Hyundai group. There's one in particular, I don't recall which (maybe the Sonata hybrid?) that has a small, very bright central spot surrounded by a large area of much lower intensity. The first few times I saw these, I thought they had been tampered with ("LED bulb" retrofit or similar), but no, it's factory equipment. The central bright spot is painful to look at if you're stuck behind one of these cars in traffic. Obviously it meets the legal standards, because the surrounding area is lit enough to count towards the EPLLA (effective lit area, basically) requirements, but there's no requirement for evenness of luminance and there's no limit on peak luminance. There's no control of luminance at all, in fact.

Anyhow, back on track: below the #1 factor (intensity) and the #2 factor (luminance), then we get to effects such as drivers reacting more quickly and accurately to stop lights on a vehicle with amber rear turn signals than on a vehicle with red rear turn signals, or on a vehicle with stop lamps that are body-color when off. Both of those studies were done by UMTRI.

I think I read somewhere that older drivers aren't attuned as much to the illumination of a brake light, but rather the act/rise of illumination itself; a state change

I'm not aware of any data suggesting anything like this, but it's common for manufacturers and vendors of dubious lighting equipment (devices that flash/blink/"pulse" the CHMSL, for example) to make such claims. If they bother backing up the claims with anything even vaguely scientific, it's always tiny little snips taken far out of context and not at all representative of whatever study they were originally a part of, or else these tiny snips are misrepresented as to what they mean.

One of my pet peeves is combination functions. I prefer each function to have its own distinct position. Off the top of my head, the tail fixtures on the early Chrysler minivans was probably the worst. A reverse light, and one red light for combined stop/tail/signal.

Actually, a few things here: combination stop/tail/turn lamps are widely common in North America where red rear turn signals are permitted. Most American-spec Chrysler minivans over the years have had such lamps, true, but they're among thousands of other year/make/models that have had this same type of lamp. Also, if the rear turn signal is red, I prefer it to be combined with the stop light. Separate red lamps (one for stop, one for turn) are confusing at best. At worst, the turn signal is effectively not visible when the stop lamp is lit. Most of this could be solved if there was a minimum separation distance required between stop lights and red turn signals, but there isn't. An amber (yellow) turn signal is better in every way (you might have read this article on the subject already).

I thought it was an odd situation as well. The fixture is a NAL (nee AL) CHMSL.

No, NAL and AL have no connection to each other. They are entirely separate companies. NAL is North American Lighting, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Koito, which is a Japanese supplier of vehicle lighting and related equipment. AL is Automotive Lighting, the company formed when Bosch and Magneti-Marelli merged their car lighting business activities in 1999.
 

Alaric Darconville

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The fixture is a NAL (nee AL) CHMSL.

No, NAL and AL have no connection to each other.

I totally did NOT read TheIntruder's post the way you did-- my brain didn't autocorrect "nee" to "née". I thought the whole sentence looked weird, but I pronounced it in my head as "knee-AL", as if the acronym NAL were being pronounced like an odd word. (But I will not call it Betty, and nobody's going to call me Al.)
 

TheIntruder

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Lots of interesting points to mull over, thanks.

Virgil was correct. I did confuse NAL and AL in my head...can't keep the industry machinations straight anymore.
 
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