Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?

JanCPF

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I have just recently aquired a Nailbender XM-L drop-in, and while it is very bright on high when first turned on, the output gradually drops as battery voltage drops. This is also confirmed when measuring the current draw at the tailcap. A truly regulated driver would increase the current draw as voltage drops, but this one doesn't. The driver that Nailbender uses is (as I understand) a buck driver, and thus it probably can't maintain constant current to the led with one 18650 cell. This is btw also true when set to medium output. I suspect it also holds true for low.



Anyway - does a truly regulated (buck/boost) P60 drop-in that maintains constant current to the led from one 18650 exist? (It doesn't have to be XM-L led. XP-G actually has a much cleaner tint across the hotspot IMO). Thrunite? Malkoff? Kaidomain?
 

Corvette6769

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This is Google's cache of https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754&p=3649962. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Jan 10, 2011 22:37:53 GMT.


Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by JanCPF on 01-05-2011 06:09 AM GMTI have just recently aquired a Nailbender XM-L drop-in, and while it is very bright on high when first turned on, the output gradually drops as battery voltage drops. This is also confirmed when measuring the current draw at the tailcap. A truly regulated driver would increase the current draw as voltage drops, but this one doesn't. The driver that Nailbender uses is (as I understand) a buck driver, and thus it probably can't maintain constant current to the led with one 18650 cell. This is btw also true when set to medium output. I suspect it also holds true for low.Anyway - does a truly regulated (buck/boost) P60 drop-in that maintains constant current to the led from one 18650 exist? (It doesn't have to be XM-L led. XP-G actually has a much cleaner tint across the hotspot IMO). Thrunite? Malkoff? Kaidomain?
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by LichtAn! on 01-05-2011 07:43 AM GMTI also ordered the same drop-in waiting for shipment. Now you got me a bit worried. How low is the current actually dropping on high?
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by JanCPF on 01-05-2011 08:34 AM GMTFirst of all I mounted the supplied copper tape so that the module was pressed *really* tight into my Surefire C2 host. Secondly I put the flashlight half submerged in a small bowl of water to keep it cooled while monitoring the output with a luxmeter. In air it gets hot quickly but water keeps it nicely cooled.With my new AW 18650 (2200 mAh) installed it ran in high mode for 35 minuttes before it dropped to low mode (with the low battery warning flashes). Current at the tailcap started out at 2.6 amp. and dropped continously throughout the runtime to about 1.4 amp at the end. Battery voltage immidiately after drop to low mode, was 3.2 volts, so the built in protection in the module seems to work fine. Output meassured with the luxmeter dropped from 100% to about 60% just before drop to low mode. Still very bright at this point, however noticably dimmer than in the beginning.BTW I found it a bit strange that the 2200 mAh didn't run for longer. I have two [edit: almost] new AW cells, and they both ran for about 35 min.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by Motodeficient on 01-05-2011 08:44 AM GMTDoesn't he offer both a direct drive and a regulated version?
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by csshih on 01-05-2011 08:49 AM GMTThat's odd.. I think the XM-L would only need a buck driver with an AW 2200. If you look at HKJ's discharge curves,http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=257543It shows that the battery drops below XM-L Vf of ~3.33V @ 3A, ~3.24V @ 2A (not sure what current the XM-L is driven at) at the far end of the discharge.. hrmm...what driver is in that dropin?even the direct drive version should have better regulation than you are seeing. how old is the 18650?
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by CarpentryHero on 01-05-2011 09:25 AM GMTMight be a different driver with the single mode.This is an interesting question. I think Malkoff and Overready dropins are regulated, but overready is regulated on two cells. On one cell I'm not sure what holds fast at a steady output. You have any higher Mah cells to try with your test?
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by JanCPF on 01-05-2011 09:28 AM GMTMy batteries are not brand new (about 5 month old but not used much) but still I think that shouldn't be a problem. they do well in other fully regulated lights, however current draw is not that high on these lights. I also tried some very old protected batteries, but they obviously performed worse. I did *not* at any point see an increase in current draw during the runtime which should be the case with a fully regulated driver (even a buck type i think), at *least* in medium mode.This is ordered as a regulated 3 mode module. Could I have gotten a direct drive module perhaps? It has got alot of electronic components on the board though, and has a very low whining sound when put to your ear, so that seems to indicate a correct order - or what?.Sorry - I don't have any higher mAh cells to test with.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by CarpentryHero on 01-05-2011 09:32 AM GMTSingle mode has a pretty steady output from what I've seen, I'm a little confused, I didn't think regulated and buck/boost belong in the same sentence.What then does direct drive fall under category wise?
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by JanCPF on 01-05-2011 09:55 AM GMT
CarpentryHero said:
Single mode has a pretty steady output from what I've seen, I'm a little confused, I didn't think regulated and buck/boost belong in the same sentence.What then does direct drive fall under category wise?
As far as I know direct drive is just the cell coupled directly to the led with no electronic regulation in between, or sometimes with a resistor in between to throttle down the current a bit. As far as I know direct drive is just the cell coupled directly to the led with no electronic regulation in between, or sometimes with a resistor in between to throttle down the current a bit.A buck/boost regulator maintains a constant current to the led by putting out the correct voltage regardless of the input voltage from the battery. When the battery voltage is above the Vf of the led, the regulator bucks the output voltage (and thereby current) to suit the led, and when the battery voltage (later in the runtime) is below the Vf it boosts to maintain the same voltage (and thereby current) to the led.If the battery voltage is above the Vf of the led all the time during the runtime, only a buck driver is needed.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by flatline on 01-05-2011 09:55 AM GMT
CarpentryHero said:
Single mode has a pretty steady output from what I've seen, I'm a little confused, I didn't think regulated and buck/boost belong in the same sentence.What then does direct drive fall under category wise?
Buck and Boost are two broad types of regulation. Buck and Boost are two broad types of regulation.Direct Drive is kind of the definition of "unregulated", but I have seen some arguments that direct drive in series with a resistor is a form of regulation.--flatline
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by LichtAn! on 01-05-2011 11:37 AM GMT
JanCPF said:
First of all I mounted the supplied copper tape so that the module was pressed *really* tight into my Surefire C2 host. Secondly I put the flashlight half submerged in a small bowl of water to keep it cooled while monitoring the output with a luxmeter. In air it gets hot quickly but water keeps it nicely cooled.With my new AW 18650 (2200 mAh) installed it ran in high mode for 35 minuttes before it dropped to low mode (with the low battery warning flashes). Current at the tailcap started out at 2.6 amp. and dropped continously throughout the runtime to about 1.4 amp at the end. Battery voltage immidiately after drop to low mode, was 3.2 volts, so the built in protection in the module seems to work fine. Output meassured with the luxmeter dropped from 100% to about 60% just before drop to low mode. Still very bright at this point, however noticably dimmer than in the beginning.BTW I found it a bit strange that the 2200 mAh didn't run for longer. I have two [edit: almost] new AW cells, and they both ran for about 35 min.
2.6A starting current isn't really that high but since the cell was discharged well below 3.5V, I wouldn't bother with the 1.4A right before/after switching to low mode. More interesting would be imho how much current is given to the led with let's say 3.8V. But if the current draw is constantly dropping from an already low 2.6A it doesn't seem regulated that well indeed. 2.6A starting current isn't really that high but since the cell was discharged well below 3.5V, I wouldn't bother with the 1.4A right before/after switching to low mode. More interesting would be imho how much current is given to the led with let's say 3.8V. But if the current draw is constantly dropping from an already low 2.6A it doesn't seem regulated that well indeed. :(
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by JanCPF on 01-05-2011 12:42 PM GMT
LichtAn! said:
2.6A starting current isn't really that high but since the cell was discharged well below 3.5V, I wouldn't bother with the 1.4A right before/after switching to low mode. More interesting would be imho how much current is given to the led with let's say 3.8V. But if the current draw is constantly dropping from an already low 2.6A it doesn't seem regulated that well indeed. :(
Current draw is constanty dropping even when running in medium mode, so no this is not very well regulated. In medium mode I noticed the same tendency when it dropped from 100% output to about 75% within the first hour (i stopped it at this point, and didn't take any current readings). I was quite disappointed that even in medium mode it couldn't maintain constant output. That is why I'm now looking for a P60 drop-in that can maintain constant output for the full runtime. I don't expect 600 lumens but 300-400 would be good, and should certainly be possible. My Quark 0.9-4.2 volt head runs for 95 minuttes in flat regulation on one 17670, and with almost 200 lumens output. Current draw is constanty dropping even when running in medium mode, so no this is not very well regulated. In medium mode I noticed the same tendency when it dropped from 100% output to about 75% within the first hour (i stopped it at this point, and didn't take any current readings). I was quite disappointed that even in medium mode it couldn't maintain constant output. That is why I'm now looking for a P60 drop-in that can maintain constant output for the full runtime. I don't expect 600 lumens but 300-400 would be good, and should certainly be possible. My Quark 0.9-4.2 volt head runs for 95 minuttes in flat regulation on one 17670, and with almost 200 lumens output.Anyway back on topic - Does such a well regulated drop-in exist? Are there any runtime graphs to support it?Thanks.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by RedForest UK on 01-05-2011 01:05 PM GMTNailbender uses the same 2.8A driver as sold by shiningbeam and used by download, but with an added 7135 component for the 3.1a version.I had a very similar problem with a nailbender SST-50 module about a year ago, my thread is probably still somewhere in the Electronics section, I was comprehensively told that it was my 18650 cells that couldn't offer adequate performance due to voltage sag by a number of people. I was using Trustfire 2400mah red and black cells, which other cpf members have stated can handle high current, and also experienced the droop on med mode that you do, but in the end I agreed and do still believe that it was the cells causing the problem. Therefore I would urge you to try another 18650 cell if at all possible, however strongly you feel the ones you have should do the job, as they could well be the source of the issue.Anyhow, I have one of Nailbenders XM-L drop-ins en-route right now so I look forward to the conclusions from this thread.I would say that many P60 drop-ins are pretty well regulated, but it is much rarer to see good regulation of currents above 2A in my experience. Try an XP-G from nailbender or I'm sure a Malkoff would be just as good, if not better. Just try not to expect too much from high current drop-ins.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by JanCPF on 01-05-2011 01:24 PM GMTThanks Redforest. Please do check in here with your observations when you get the drop in.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by RedForest UK on 01-05-2011 01:34 PM GMTWill do ;)
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by CarpentryHero on 01-05-2011 02:21 PM GMTThanks for answering my questions on the drivers everyone 
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by tandem on 01-05-2011 02:23 PM GMTTo answer your question as to sources of regulated drivers, don't use the XM-L drop-in as a basis for comparison or expectation setting. This first drop-in from Nailbender is clearly an "early experience" max output kind of solution.The XM-L doesn't have to be run near max current in order to be useful, but that's what you are getting here. A single 18650 will be depleted pretty quickly, but sadly Nailbender doesn't have drivers to fit P60 modules capable of supporting 2x li-ion cells, driving the XM-L anywhere near max current. You could probably get him to build you an XM-L drop in using a driver he might use for an XP-G (say at 1.4A) but not sure that would really get you much farther although it would be a different beam.When Canadian Customs decides to release my Linger (Dual XP-G) and XM-L from nailbender I'll put up some tail cap current measurements and an animated gif of output too. I've got some fairly new AW 2900 mAh cells to check it out with.At near 3 amps draw I'm not expecting very long regulated output on high, regardless of the cell. Just look at the voltage drop here for an AW2600:
AW18650-2600.png
Chart by HKJ - the green trace is 3A. At 1A draw (red) you get more than 1/2 the cell capacity drained before voltage drops below 3.6V. At 3A draw, you drop below 3.6V in the first minute or so. That's just the nature of the beast. However if you run the light entirely on "medium" you should see decent regulated runtime.Anyway... Nailbender, Malkoff and many others all have P60 drop-ins, well regulated, hosting XP-G, XR-E and other emitters. I have a constant-current driver based P60 XR-E from Nailbender which proves exceedingly flat output. My Malkoff M61 provides 1hr30 of very flat output off a 2900 mAh AW cell until depletion pulls the light out of regulated runtime. It actually runs a tad brighter for a minute or so at this point, and then settles in for a long slow decline. You can get a total of 2hours decent output before you'd want to recharge to preserve cell life but in a pinch could easily run the light for much longer.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by nailbender on 01-05-2011 02:39 PM GMTHI AllI will try to cure some of the speculation on my module. I use a 8X7135 resistor driver and add a resistor so it is a 9 X 7135 driver. While buck driver may not be the proper terminology it is the same driver that I have been using in all my SST 50 modules. The addition of the extra resistor is all that has changed from the SST 50 module I sell so for those of you that own them you should not be surprised by the runtimes. Tandem you explained it better than I do thanksThese are the same 8X7135 drivers that shiningbeam sells and that download sells. They are used in a multitude of SST 50 lights on the market by several manufacturers. They are not buck boost drivers and I don't advertise them as that. While an 18650 doesn't give long at 3.1 amps I do on fully charged AW cells get it for awhile, since I have a large crowd that still uses 2XCR123 primaries I hate to not represent the 3amp figure to the primary users. I am certainly not trying to represent something it is not. There are hundreds of these drivers in use across the forum.If you are using a 18650 that doesn't furnish 3 amps you will not get 3 amps, 5 months old batteries will have an effect if you have used them on a regular basis. Just the type or brand of battery will make a difference in amount of sag when this type draw is involved. They will dim on any level once the voltage starts to drop to where VF and overhead are more than what is left in the battery. While the blinking starts at 2.8 volts on this driver when the battery voltage drops below the VF of the emitter combined with the overhead to run the driver then the light will dim unless it a boost driver. If you are looking to get hours on a 3 amp emitter running on high you are going to be disappointed with an 18650. using your quark that uses a boost driver as an example while it is furnishing maybe 1 amp is not quite fair since I have a 1 amp driver that is graphed at 2 hours on high on a 2600 mah battery but i doubt you want to use it on an XML. Any battery can fulfill 1 amp for the duration of the battery but not many 3 amps.While I am sure there may be some constant current drivers that supply 3 amps I doubt many are in 17mm format. Buck boost even rarer over 1amp becuase of heat problems. Many folks had to go to AW 2600 and 2900 mah batts to achieve higher amps with a SST 50 direct drive or regulated. While not well versed in electronic design I believe boost drivers boost voltage not expressly amperage which is why most boost drivers are usually 1.4 amps or less. JanCPF I have not seen a PM to me telling me you are dissatisfied and while the topic here is searching for a better module which I highly respect, I do feel by the tone that it is more than that please PM and I will solve your problem. I am not sure this helped the questions but maybe. thanksDave
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by LichtAn! on 01-05-2011 02:51 PM GMT
nailbender said:
These are the same 8X7135 drivers that shiningbeam sells and that download sells. They are used in a multitude of SST 50 lights on the market by several manufacturers. They are not buck boost drivers and I don't advertise them as that. While an 18650 doesn't give long at 3.1 amps I do on fully charged AW cells get it for awhile, since I have a large crowd that still uses 2XCR123 primaries I hate to not represent the 3amp figure to the primary users.
Sorry for my poor english, I don't understand that sentence completely. So you're saying by your testing your AW cells can hold the 3A draw for "a while"? I've got brand new AWs here waiting to be used. I'm pretty excited for the drop-in to arrive. Sorry for my poor english, I don't understand that sentence completely. So you're saying by your testing your AW cells can hold the 3A draw for "a while"? I've got brand new AWs here waiting to be used. I'm pretty excited for the drop-in to arrive.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by JanCPF on 01-05-2011 04:09 PM GMT
nailbender said:
HI AllI will try to cure some of the speculation on my module. I use a 8X7135 resistor driver and add a resistor so it is a 9 X 7135 driver. While buck driver may not be the proper terminology it is the same driver that I have been using in all my SST 50 modules. The addition of the extra resistor is all that has changed from the SST 50 module I sell so for those of you that own them you should not be surprised by the runtimes. Tandem you explained it better than I do thanksThese are the same 8X7135 drivers that shiningbeam sells and that download sells. They are used in a multitude of SST 50 lights on the market by several manufacturers. They are not buck boost drivers and I don't advertise them as that. While an 18650 doesn't give long at 3.1 amps I do on fully charged AW cells get it for awhile, since I have a large crowd that still uses 2XCR123 primaries I hate to not represent the 3amp figure to the primary users. I am certainly not trying to represent something it is not. There are hundreds of these drivers in use across the forum.If you are using a 18650 that doesn't furnish 3 amps you will not get 3 amps, 5 months old batteries will have an effect if you have used them on a regular basis. Just the type or brand of battery will make a difference in amount of sag when this type draw is involved. They will dim on any level once the voltage starts to drop to where VF and overhead are more than what is left in the battery. While the blinking starts at 2.8 volts on this driver when the battery voltage drops below the VF of the emitter combined with the overhead to run the driver then the light will dim unless it a boost driver. If you are looking to get hours on a 3 amp emitter running on high you are going to be disappointed with an 18650. using your quark that uses a boost driver as an example while it is furnishing maybe 1 amp is not quite fair since I have a 1 amp driver that is graphed at 2 hours on high on a 2600 mah battery but i doubt you want to use it on an XML. Any battery can fulfill 1 amp for the duration of the battery but not many 3 amps.While I am sure there may be some constant current drivers that supply 3 amps I doubt many are in 17mm format. Buck boost even rarer over 1amp becuase of heat problems. Many folks had to go to AW 2600 and 2900 mah batts to achieve higher amps with a SST 50 direct drive or regulated. While not well versed in electronic design I believe boost drivers boost voltage not expressly amperage which is why most boost drivers are usually 1.4 amps or less. JanCPF I have not seen a PM to me telling me you are dissatisfied and while the topic here is searching for a better module which I highly respect, I do feel by the tone that it is more than that please PM and I will solve your problem. I am not sure this helped the questions but maybe. thanksDave
Hi Dave, Hi Dave,Thanks for your concern. I have just replied to you in an e-mail (your PM box is full). You probably didn't state anywhere that it would run in flat regulation on any level, but I took the chance anyway and hoped it would do it on medium level with somewhat more output than my Quark. I should probably have asked for a lower "high" level, but I didn't know that it was a posibility at the time of my order. I'm still unsure though if a lower "high" (say 1.5-2.0 amp or so) module would run in flat regulation, and that's why I started this thread in search for a P60 module with true flat regulation. NOT necessarily with 600 lumen output mind you, but just something that would be noticably brighter than my 200 lumen Quark. My XM-L drop-in is a bit brighter on medium in the beginning of the runtime than the Quark, but about the same brightness at the end. I'm not blaming you or the module - just searching for a module that suits my needs better.Tandem,Thanks for your explanation!
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by RedForest UK on UnknownGot my module today, I think the thermal potting + lower vf of the xm-l means it's much easier to achieve higher currents than the SST-50 module I had before. Even on basic Red and Black trustfires it draws 0.10A, 0.75A, and 2.5A, this isn't even on a fully charged cell, so I'm looking forward to the results when I have one at 4.2v.It isn't dark yet but the output is amazing, it just blows away my 1.4A XP-G module, even on med which is only half of the current it can compete with it output wise. The one slight issue that I have is quite a loud whine at low and med mode, but the output is so much on high mode that it's easy to imagine the squeal as brakes slammed on to throttle the output and it's actually quite cool ;)
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by RedForest UK on Unknown4.18v : 3.15A :devil:
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by tandem on Unknown
LichtAn! said:
AW cells can hold the 3A draw for "a while"?
It won't be all that long, at least not with the AW 2600. The AW 2900 will probably fare better, noticeably so. It won't be all that long, at least not with the AW 2600. The AW 2900 will probably fare better, noticeably so.If you look at HKJ's various lithium ion cell discharge charts you'll notice that the three amp trace (green lines) very quickly drops down in voltage. As the current draw in a li-ion cell increases the ability of the cell to hold voltage decreases. Some cells are better than others in this regard but at high current draw (3A is relatively high for these cells) none are all that much better than the other. The one exception are the IMR cells which while they do sag less at 3A they are lower capacity different chemistry cells designed for very high current draw. Your trade off here is runtime.From HKJ's article here is the AW 2600 cell, 3A in green.
HKJ said:
On the graph, the black trace is 0.3A, red is 1A and green is 3A discharge current.
AW18650-2600.png
From a comparison done by LuxLuthor between the AW 2900 vs Redilast 2900, top red+black line is 2A - so we'll have to guess at what 3A might look like:
aw-redi-2900s.jpg
It would appear that the pretty decent 2A performance suggests the 2900 mAh Panasonic cells which are incorporated in the AW and Redilast products may deliver somewhat better voltage performance at 3A than the older generation of cells found in HKJs review, but probably not radically so.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by richpalm on UnknownWatching this with interest... I did up several dropins with the Shiningbeam driver; XML's, SSt-50 and P7. Most draw ~2.5A at the tailcap with AW IMR 18650's.How much of a brightness difference are you gonna see with 3.1A, really? Sure would like to know which chip gets piggybacked on the board. No sweat with soldering here.Rich
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by jollyrogr on Unknown
JanCPF said:
Hi Dave,Thanks for your concern. I have just replied to you in an e-mail (your PM box is full). You probably didn't state anywhere that it would run in flat regulation on any level, but I took the chance anyway and hoped it would do it on medium level with somewhat more output than my Quark. I should probably have asked for a lower "high" level, but I didn't know that it was a posibility at the time of my order. I'm still unsure though if a lower "high" (say 1.5-2.0 amp or so) module would run in flat regulation, and that's why I started this thread in search for a P60 module with true flat regulation. NOT necessarily with 600 lumen output mind you, but just something that would be noticably brighter than my 200 lumen Quark. My XM-L drop-in is a bit brighter on medium in the beginning of the runtime than the Quark, but about the same brightness at the end. I'm not blaming you or the module - just searching for a module that suits my needs better.Tandem,Thanks for your explanation!
Have you considered a Malkoff M61? Have you considered a Malkoff M61?
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by JanCPF on UnknownFrom Redforest's observations and the voltage sag pointed out by Tandem (thank you both) there is no longer any doubt in my mind, that if one want's flat regulation at these 2.8-3.1 A currents, a buck/boost regulator is needed. A buck-only regulator may be able to provide constant output at 1.0-1.5 A if Vf of the led is low, but thats about the limit I think. What I don't quite understand is why no P60 modules have a buck/boost regulator. Sure, they are a bit less efficient, but this type of circuit is used in several other flashlights AFAIK, but not in P60 modules :thinking:. No room for it perhaps? :shrug:Thanks jollyrojr - yes I'm probably going buy the very same :). It does indeed maintain (almost) constant output for 1h30 on a 18650 according to this runtime graph done by CSSHIH. Not a buck/boost and therefore not perfectly regulated but certainly good enough for 1h30. Of course output from the M61 is not in the same league as an XM-L driven at 3 A.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by tandem on UnknownOn my Nailbender XM-L T6 module I'm getting the following from a 4.17V charged AW 2900:High: 3.08A (briefly) which then fairly soon starts dropping down, settling initially at ~ 2.8ish Amps; similar experience on other 2900 cells. Hit 3.1 on another.Medium: 0.87ALow: 0.11AAs far as flat regulation... I don't expect a 1x18650 powered light to drive the XM-L anywhere near full rated input of 3A at the LED all the while getting flat regulated output.A 2x18650 powered light - flat regulation would be a reasonable possibility. Mind you the current at 8.4V will be roughly 1/2 that at 4.2. Souring a reliable higher voltage driver is the requirement and Dave has indicated these are not readily available to him. Regulated Triple and Quad XP-G modules also have high current draw; at least one that supports 2xli-ion configurations appears to be using a fairly high tech Russian board - this might be significantly more costly.JanCPF - if you really want constant output for a decent runtime on a single 18650, an XP-G emitter is probably what you want to be looking at, like a Malkoff M61 or a Nailbender XP-G or probably any one of a few others. I really like my Malkoff M61; I also have a Nailbender with a constant current driver (costs a few dollars more but I like it) which I have running an XR-E light - it provides nice flat output for almost bang on 2 hours. Runtime you'd think would be about the same running an XP-G light. His XP-G's in LOP reflectors are quite nice indeed.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by JanCPF on UnknownThank you Tandem - yes the Nailbender 1 amp XP-G is also one I'm considering. Do you know the approx OTF lumens on this module. I know you've got the XR-E so the XP-G should be slightly brighter and more floody. I wonder how hard the M61 is driven. Malkoff claims 260 OTF which I think is quite acurate.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by jollyrogr on Unknown
JanCPF said:
Of course output from the M61 is not in the same league as an XM-L driven at 3 A.
Nope, nothing out there now is. Of course if you want more run-time, you can't run at 3 amps. I don't know what the current draw of a M61 is, but with it's XP-G emitter it is quite bright, and gives decent runtime on primaries or 18650. Mine is in an MD2, so tailcap measurement not possible. Nope, nothing out there now is. Of course if you want more run-time, you can't run at 3 amps. I don't know what the current draw of a M61 is, but with it's XP-G emitter it is quite bright, and gives decent runtime on primaries or 18650. Mine is in an MD2, so tailcap measurement not possible.
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins ?Written by tandem on UnknownI take the 260 OTF from Malkoff as accurate. His module draws around 800ma at the tail cap off a fresh-ish cell, so it isn't driven particularly hard. If you get an XP-G from Nailbender driven harder you can expect a little more output at the expense of runtime. I'm pretty happy with 260 and decent runtimes.The beam patterns between the two are quite different.Spill: Malkoff spill is a little wider than Nailbender's (maybe a little more than 1/8 wider in diameter for the same distance to wall)Hotspot: Malkoff has a wider fairly consistent hotspot; the Nailbender hotspot is quite different - it will have more throw than the M61 as it has a brighter central core than the Malkoff's hotspot but unlike the uniform hotspot on the Malkoff the Nailbender LOP reflector puts a quite bright and wider than usual (compared to all of my other lights) corona around the hotspot which has the effect of extending the hotspot out farther. The corona isn't quite the same brightness as the core but is far brighter than the spill. Reading the above I'm sure it is hard to picture so I'll try to take some beamshots tonight or tomorrow.Incidentally I think I like the constant current driver Dave offers the best, but I don't know how much flexibility he has for setting current levels so you should ask about that if you are interested. Why do I like it? Aside from extended runtime, since it doesn't employ PWM you don't hear a whine which is present on medium and low output levels in some of the other drivers used by NB and many other builders. How evident this is varies by module. On high of course, no whine. The Malkoff being single stage don't have any issues with whine but you lose the multiple output level flexibility.If I could get from Nailbender an 800 - 1000ma driven XP-G with the constant current driver that would be a highly useful general purpose light. That said, I'm really liking this three stage XM-L. Love the beam! Really love it.
 
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Corvette6769

Newly Enlightened
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Here are some missing posts I received via email notification Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:02 AM CST.

There may be other posts, but these are all of the notifications I received between 11-1-10 and 3-12-11.


These following posts were made to this thread:
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3649573
Posted by: RedForest UK
On: 01-10-2011 06:20 AM

Got my module today, I think the thermal potting + lower vf of the xm-l means it's much easier to achieve higher currents than the SST-50 module I had before. Even on basic Red and Black trustfires it draws 0.10A, 0.75A, and 2.5A, this isn't even on a fully charged cell, so I'm looking forward to the results when I have one at 4.2v.

It isn't dark yet but the output is amazing, it just blows away my 1.4A XP-G module, even on med which is only half of the current it can compete with it output wise. The one slight issue that I have is quite a loud whine at low and med mode, but the output is so much on high mode that it's easy to imagine the squeal as brakes slammed on to throttle the output and it's actually quite cool ;)
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3649589
Posted by: RedForest UK
On: 01-10-2011 07:09 AM

4.18v : 3.15A :devil:
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3649723
Posted by: tandem
On: 01-10-2011 12:21 PM


---Quote (Originally by LichtAn!)---
AW cells can hold the 3A draw for "a while"?
---End Quote---
It won't be all that long, at least not with the AW 2600. The AW 2900 will probably fare better, noticeably so.

If you look at HKJ's various lithium ion cell discharge charts (http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/Battery%2018650%20UK.html) you'll notice that the three amp trace (green lines) very quickly drops down in voltage. As the current draw in a li-ion cell increases the ability of the cell to hold voltage decreases. Some cells are better than others in this regard but at high current draw (3A is relatively high for these cells) none are all that much better than the other. The one exception are the IMR cells which while they do sag less at 3A they are lower capacity different chemistry cells designed for very high current draw. Your trade off here is runtime.

From HKJ's article (http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/Battery 18650 UK.html) here is the AW 2600 cell, 3A in green.

---Quote (Originally by HKJ)---
On the graph, the black trace is 0.3A, red is 1A and green is 3A discharge current.
---End Quote---
Image: http://www.lygte-info.dk/pic/battery 18650/AW18650-2600.png

From a comparison done by LuxLuthor between the AW 2900 vs Redilast 2900 (https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/293785&page=1), top red+black line is 2A - so we'll have to guess at what 3A might look like:
Image: http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/CBA-II Tests/aw-redi-2900s.jpg

It would appear that the pretty decent 2A performance suggests the 2900 mAh Panasonic cells which are incorporated in the AW and Redilast products may deliver somewhat better voltage performance at 3A than the older generation of cells found in HKJs review, but probably not radically so.
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3649843
Posted by: richpalm
On: 01-10-2011 03:08 PM

Watching this with interest... I did up several dropins with the Shiningbeam driver; XML's, SSt-50 and P7. Most draw ~2.5A at the tailcap with AW IMR 18650's.

How much of a brightness difference are you gonna see with 3.1A, really? Sure would like to know which chip gets piggybacked on the board. No sweat with soldering here.

Rich
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3649871
Posted by: jollyrogr
On: 01-10-2011 03:40 PM


---Quote (Originally by JanCPF)---
Hi Dave,

Thanks for your concern. I have just replied to you in an e-mail (your PM box is full). You probably didn't state anywhere that it would run in flat regulation on any level, but I took the chance anyway and hoped it would do it on medium level with somewhat more output than my Quark. I should probably have asked for a lower "high" level, but I didn't know that it was a posibility at the time of my order. I'm still unsure though if a lower "high" (say 1.5-2.0 amp or so) module would run in flat regulation, and that's why I started this thread in search for a P60 module with true flat regulation. NOT necessarily with 600 lumen output mind you, but just something that would be noticably brighter than my 200 lumen Quark. My XM-L drop-in is a bit brighter on medium in the beginning of the runtime than the Quark, but about the same brightness at the end.

I'm not blaming you or the module - just searching for a module that suits my needs better.

Tandem,
Thanks for your explanation!
---End Quote---
Have you considered a Malkoff M61?
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3649876
Posted by: JanCPF
On: 01-10-2011 03:49 PM

From Redforest's observations and the voltage sag pointed out by Tandem (thank you both) there is no longer any doubt in my mind, that if one want's flat regulation at these 2.8-3.1 A currents, a buck/boost regulator is needed. A buck-only regulator may be able to provide constant output at 1.0-1.5 A if Vf of the led is low, but thats about the limit I think. What I don't quite understand is why no P60 modules have a buck/boost regulator. Sure, they are a bit less efficient, but this type of circuit is used in several other flashlights AFAIK, but not in P60 modules :thinking:. No room for it perhaps? :shrug:

Thanks jollyrojr - yes I'm probably going buy the very same :). It does indeed maintain (almost) constant output for 1h30 on a 18650 according to this (https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/265496&p=3647757#post3647757) runtime graph done by CSSHIH. Not a buck/boost and therefore not perfectly regulated but certainly good enough for 1h30. Of course output from the M61 is not in the same league as an XM-L driven at 3 A.
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3649912
Posted by: tandem
On: 01-10-2011 04:19 PM

On my Nailbender XM-L T6 module I'm getting the following from a 4.17V charged AW 2900:

High: 3.08A (briefly) which then fairly soon starts dropping down, settling initially at ~ 2.8ish Amps; similar experience on other 2900 cells. Hit 3.1 on another.
Medium: 0.87A
Low: 0.11A

As far as flat regulation... I don't expect a 1x18650 powered light to drive the XM-L anywhere near full rated input of 3A at the LED all the while getting flat regulated output.

A 2x18650 powered light - flat regulation would be a reasonable possibility. Mind you the current at 8.4V will be roughly 1/2 that at 4.2. Souring a reliable higher voltage driver is the requirement and Dave has indicated these are not readily available to him.

Regulated Triple and Quad XP-G modules also have high current draw; at least one that supports 2xli-ion configurations appears to be using a fairly high tech Russian board - this might be significantly more costly.

JanCPF - if you really want constant output for a decent runtime on a single 18650, an XP-G emitter is probably what you want to be looking at, like a Malkoff M61 or a Nailbender XP-G or probably any one of a few others. I really like my Malkoff M61; I also have a Nailbender with a constant current driver (costs a few dollars more but I like it) which I have running an XR-E light - it provides nice flat output for almost bang on 2 hours. Runtime you'd think would be about the same running an XP-G light. His XP-G's in LOP reflectors are quite nice indeed.
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3649924
Posted by: JanCPF
On: 01-10-2011 04:36 PM

Thank you Tandem - yes the Nailbender 1 amp XP-G is also one I'm considering. Do you know the approx OTF lumens on this module. I know you've got the XR-E so the XP-G should be slightly brighter and more floody. I wonder how hard the M61 is driven. Malkoff claims 260 OTF which I think is quite acurate.
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3649942
Posted by: jollyrogr
On: 01-10-2011 05:01 PM


---Quote (Originally by JanCPF)---
Of course output from the M61 is not in the same league as an XM-L driven at 3 A.
---End Quote---
Nope, nothing out there now is. Of course if you want more run-time, you can't run at 3 amps. I don't know what the current draw of a M61 is, but with it's XP-G emitter it is quite bright, and gives decent runtime on primaries or 18650. Mine is in an MD2, so tailcap measurement not possible.
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3649962
Posted by: tandem
On: 01-10-2011 05:25 PM

I take the 260 OTF from Malkoff as accurate. His module draws around 800ma at the tail cap off a fresh-ish cell, so it isn't driven particularly hard. If you get an XP-G from Nailbender driven harder you can expect a little more output at the expense of runtime. I'm pretty happy with 260 and decent runtimes.

The beam patterns between the two are quite different.

Spill: Malkoff spill is a little wider than Nailbender's (maybe a little more than 1/8 wider in diameter for the same distance to wall)
Hotspot: Malkoff has a wider fairly consistent hotspot; the Nailbender hotspot is quite different - it will have more throw than the M61 as it has a brighter central core than the Malkoff's hotspot but unlike the uniform hotspot on the Malkoff the Nailbender LOP reflector puts a quite bright and wider than usual (compared to all of my other lights) corona around the hotspot which has the effect of extending the hotspot out farther. The corona isn't quite the same brightness as the core but is far brighter than the spill.

Reading the above I'm sure it is hard to picture so I'll try to take some beamshots tonight or tomorrow.

Incidentally I think I like the constant current driver Dave offers the best, but I don't know how much flexibility he has for setting current levels so you should ask about that if you are interested.

Why do I like it? Aside from extended runtime, since it doesn't employ PWM you don't hear a whine which is present on medium and low output levels in some of the other drivers used by NB and many other builders. How evident this is varies by module. On high of course, no whine. The Malkoff being single stage don't have any issues with whine but you lose the multiple output level flexibility.

If I could get from Nailbender an 800 - 1000ma driven XP-G with the constant current driver that would be a highly useful general purpose light. That said, I'm really liking this three stage XM-L. Love the beam! Really love it.
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3650027
Posted by: JanCPF
On: 01-10-2011 06:42 PM

Tandem,
Very informative post - Thank you. I'll be using mine on night walks in the forest, so throw isn't really my concern. I have found that a smooth transition from spot to spill is the best for this purpose. As I understand you, the M61 has a bigger hotspot and brighter spill but not reaching as far as the NB, which leads me to beleive, that the M61 also has a smoother transition. Would you say that that is a correct assumption? Please don't feel obliged to do the beamshots - I know the work involved doing that.
************
Re: Any truly regulated P60 drop-ins?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/306754#post3650039
Posted by: jollyrogr
On: 01-10-2011 06:58 PM

Tandem: I also found your post very informative. Thanks for the info. Cant wait to get my nailbender XM-L!
 
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