Any use for C Li-ion, capable of 10C discharge (20A)

kaidomain

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
47
Dear CPR'ers:

Do we have use of a special C li-ion cell (3000mAh), capable of 10C discharge (30A)? During 10C discharge, voltage changes from 3.5V and finally reaches 3.3V in about 8 minutes.

Three special C li-ion in series = 10.8V * 30A = 324W? with 8 minutes of runtime?

(edit: 10C discharge on 3000mAh cell is 30A)
 
Last edited:
Might not be 'official' A123 but sure sounds like LiFePO4 technology.

If they are LiFePO4, yes, we have a use for them.


10C would be 10 x 3000mAH = 30A discharge.
 
We'll excuse his typo as long as he's not doing that to important specs like voltage and capacity :D

Seriously though, my brain is already ticking over thinking about what I can do with them.

I was doing some investigative work into LiFePO4 type cells for use in the ROP 2C, however the A123 cells are too long - they need a 3C ROP.

Conventional lithium ion cells sag very heavily under high discharge rates too, plus I am currently running 2x18650 unprotected LG Chem cells in mine. This was the original design when I first dreamed up the ROP in 2C.

I'm aware there are now protected C size lithium ions, but why bother with protecting a potentially unstable chemistry when I can simply switch to an inherently-safe chemistry?

(actually there is one good reason: compatibility with existing Li-ion 4.2V charger equipment).

So I think there is a continued market for conventional 4.2V Li technology, but for those who have A123/LiFePO4 capable chargers, the new Li-Fe cells are a great substitute for ROPs. One of the things that has always bugged me is the goal of a 'safer ROP'. The original NiMH based ROP design was very safe due to its use of NiMH cells, and I have always hoped to find a way to make the lithium ROP safer.

Li-ion drops to 6.5-7V under a 4A draw from the ROP, even from a fresh charge (8.4V). The voltage drop surprised me, I knew it would drop, but not THIS much.

A123 cells can deliver 3.25V at a TEN amp draw according to their datasheets. That's 6.5V right there - so no effective output loss despite reduction in maximum voltage. This would apply, assuming Kai's Li-Fe cells perform in a similar way.

I'd be interested in trying some of these cells, unfortunately life is making things difficult for me and I'll only be able to start playing with my lights again in December. But keep me informed.. I am definitely interested. Depending on the price of course, I'd want 2-4 cells.
 
Might not be 'official' A123 but sure sounds like LiFePO4 technology.

If they are LiFePO4, yes, we have a use for them.


10C would be 10 x 3000mAH = 30A discharge.

No, it's not LiFePO4 (3.0V). It's cobalt (3.7V).
 
Any protection circuits on them?
Recharge cutoff @ >=4.2V and overdischarge protection would be good.
 
Do you have spec for this battery? Sounds compairable to emoli a 4.2v batt. that can use Li Io9(4.1)v or Li Po(4.2v) charging programs.

Do you have a discharge under load graph like in link below?

Emoli
Dimension: 26mm diameter x 70mm length
Weight: Approximately 100g

Mfg Claimed Capacity: 2900mah(26700mah)
Nominal Voltage: 3.7 V
Charge Voltage: 4.2 V
Mfg's Max Continuous Discharge Rate: 20A
Max Tested Continuous Discharge Rate* : 45A (15C)
* Not endorsed by Manufacturer.

http://www.swift-tuning.com/EMOLI_26700A.pdf
 
Kaidomain, I'm confused. Maybe you can clarify some of these questions. I would think using Emoli (3.7V) or A123 (3.3V) LiFePO4 cells would be preferred for high current output....even if I need to enlarge my C Mags to use them. (I use a brake hone by KD Tools with a simple hand drill, under a trickle of water to reduce dust and enhance grinding speed and cooling)
  • If it is Lithium Cobalt why in your first post do you say: "During 10C discharge, voltage changes from 3.5V and finally reaches 3.3V in about 8 minutes." Why isn't it starting at 4.2V when you describe the apparent run time of 8 mins? I'm aware that the nominal designation category voltage of Li Cobalt is 3.7V, but we don't even use that relatively uncharged nominal voltage for run time test capabilities.
  • Given that AW's cells are 3300mAh Li-Cobalt, but limited by safety and PTC to 5A, I would like some more information about the safety and testing of your cells discharging at A123/Emoli rates. Not to be disrespectful, but my initial reaction is one of not believing this capability in a Cobalt C-cell can be provided safely, and with reasonable lifespan.
  • Who makes them? Do you have objective CBA-II run time plots with various Amp discharge rates? Who makes the PTC? (QA & reputation is an important concern with what sounds like pushing Lithium Cobalt cells to an extreme.)
 
  • If it is Lithium Cobalt why in your first post do you say: "During 10C discharge, voltage changes from 3.5V and finally reaches 3.3V in about 8 minutes." Why isn't it starting at 4.2V when you describe the apparent run time of 8 mins? I'm aware that the nominal designation category voltage of Li Cobalt is 3.7V, but we don't even use that relatively uncharged nominal voltage for run time test capabilities.

I assumed that this was the voltage sag under load - do any cells deliver anything close to the no load voltage at 10C?
 
A123 are pretty darn flat during discharge. 5761 with 5.5A draw I obtained the following vbatt underload=6.71, 6.4vbulb.

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2120470&postcount=1

Check out the A123 30A draw discharge graph in link below. About as flat as can get.

http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/pdf/ANR26650M1_Datasheet_FEB2007-1.pdf

Emoli graph 9c discharge. Notice other table showing discharge voltage under load capacity and power.

http://www.swift-tuning.com/EMOLI_26700A.pdf

Why spend money on unproven batteries when there are years, couple anyway, of performace, imperical and quantifiable data?

I assumed that this was the voltage sag under load - do any cells deliver anything close to the no load voltage at 10C?
 
Hello LuxLuthor,

Maybe I should be made myself more clear.

- The battery, while with no load is 4.2V fresh from the charger. During a heavy discharge rate at 10C, the voltage measures from 3.3V and 3.5V across the discharge period. Discharge a 3Ah cell with 30A gives about 8 minutes (ending voltage 3.3V).

- Sure. I start to re-think these cells may not be built with Li-Cobalt. The manufacturer categorizes the cells into performance and capacity models. The capacity model gives a max discharge rate of 3C (4Ah), while this 10C capable cell has a capacity of 3Ah. I will confirm the material used to make these cells tomorrow (5am here).

- I am telling the result based on graph. I cannot disclosed the manufacturer information yet, but can post the graph in a bit.

Kai
 
If you could get these in 1/2D size, they would be fantastic for scary Mag mods. You could put four in a 2D Mag for a 12V bulb (62138, etc.), ten in a 5D Mag for a 36V bulb (23177, etc.)...
 
Kai,

Thanks for update. I think we understand better now that you don't yet have all the specifications on these cells, or if they might be LiFePO4 chemistry which would make more sense, and be safer at those discharge rates. Keep us posted.

:twothumbs

Hello LuxLuthor,

Maybe I should be made myself more clear.

- The battery, while with no load is 4.2V fresh from the charger. During a heavy discharge rate at 10C, the voltage measures from 3.3V and 3.5V across the discharge period. Discharge a 3Ah cell with 30A gives about 8 minutes (ending voltage 3.3V).

- Sure. I start to re-think these cells may not be built with Li-Cobalt. The manufacturer categorizes the cells into performance and capacity models. The capacity model gives a max discharge rate of 3C (4Ah), while this 10C capable cell has a capacity of 3Ah. I will confirm the material used to make these cells tomorrow (5am here).

- I am telling the result based on graph. I cannot disclosed the manufacturer information yet, but can post the graph in a bit.

Kai
 
Kia,

Almost 1 Month and no updates? Did this thread get lost? I am interested in your Protected Li-Ion packs.
 
Top