Anyone get into Li-Ion cells and then stop using them later on?

[Black Rose]

I was curious if anyone has gotten into Li-Ion cells for a period of time and then stepped away from them for other types of cells.

If you did, what were the reasons and what did you switch to?

 

[Battery Guy]

I was curious if anyone has gotten into Li-Ion cells for a period of time and then stepped away from them for other types of cells.

If you did, what were the reasons and what did you switch to?

Hi Black Rose

Not sure if I fit into the category of "gotten into Li-ion". I have not yet started using Li-ion in my flashlight mods, but I have many years of experience designing lithium-ion cells and using lithium-ion batteries in a wide range of applications.

So I can tell you why I have NOT moved into lithium-ion for flashlights (at least, not yet).

In my opinion, there are two big problems with using lithium-ion batteries in the hobby world:

1.) The inability to purchase new cells made by top tier cell manufactures is a big deal for me. It is nearly impossible to purchase new cells from Sony, Sanyo, Samsung, Panasonic, LG, Moli, A123, etc..., without resorting to harvesting the cells from commercial laptop or power tool battery packs. Quite frankly, most of the cylindrical lithium-ion cells available to the hobbyist online are bottom tier, low quality cells that most likely are rebranded rejects from anonymous battery manufacturers in China. Sorry, but it is true. I know its true because I have been to several lithium-ion battery manufacturing facilities in Japan, Korea and China. I know how they operate and I know how many of them get rid of their "scrap".

2.) I don't want to have to remove my cells from the flashlight in order to charge them. Therefore, I need to be able to charge a series string without worrying about overcharging individual cells. For lithium-ion, this requires making a custom pack with voltage sense leads on all of the cells, and charging with a system that will balance cells. I'm just not ready to go there yet.

3.) I don't think I have completely tapped out NiMH. When I can't go any further with these chemistries, I will probably move on to lithium-ion. Until then, I prefer to keep things simple and use NiMH while I figure out a bunch of the other non-battery technical issues associated with flashlight building and moding.

Cheers,
BG

 

[LuxLuthor]

I have only stepped away from Li-Ion's when they need to be recharged. :devil:

On serious note, I only avoid them when lending or giving a flashlight gift to anyone not fully aware of how to properly take care of the chemistry...which is basically anyone not participating on CPF.

 

[Nokoff]

runtime being the deciding factor, I've begun picking up nimh when I know the torch will be on for a long time, even though the output is less.. I'm grateful for both types of batts

 

[flatline]

Kinda.

Once I saw how delicate the protection circuits were on the cheap 14500s I bought for the Quark, I lost all faith in them. If anything, a protected cell is more vulnerable to an unlucky drop than an unprotected cell since the circuit can be crushed by the battery or, if the shrink wrap is damaged, the cell can short.

I still use Li-ion cells, but I'm far more careful about it now than when I got started. I no longer use Li-ion cells in any lights that don't have protection built into the light. So my MG L-mini II and my LF5XT both use Li-ion cells, but the Quark AA and H501w use NiMh cells even though it means giving up output.

When my 14500s finally fail, I'll switch all my AA lights to LSD NiMh. However, since I have a steady supply of unprotected 18650s from retired laptops and I hate CR123s, I'll probably never give up Li-ion completely. I love my MG L-mini II too much to give it up, and now that other flashlight makers are building in protection, the single 18650 light (or 2xCR123 light running on 18650) is just too compelling a platform to ignore completely.

--flatline

Edit: I just ordered a High CRI Ra Clicky and two RCR123s for it. So, unless I'm willing to use CR123s, it looks like I'm committed to Li-ion in the RCR123 format, too, at least for this one light. I was hoping to resist the lure of the 1xCR123 lights, but the more I read about this light, the more I knew I had to have it even if it meant using cells I didn't like.

 

[bob4apple]

Once I started with the lions, I was hooked! Of course, it can lead to the really hard stuff, you know- lipos, which I use in remote control helicopters.

(And some day I'll probably move them away from the gasoline can in the garage, I swear I will get around to it, eventually.)

 

[RAGE CAGE]

sort of- I only use eneloops/duraloops now- got rid of my 10440's- only Li rechargables I will use now are AW IMR CR123's or same 18650's in single cell applications only. These are the only ones I trust.

 

[Dances with Flashlight]

I have only stepped away from Li-Ion's when they need to be recharged. :devil:

On serious note, I only avoid them when lending or giving a flashlight gift to anyone not fully aware of how to properly take care of the chemistry...which is basically anyone not participating on CPF.

+1

The extra voltage edge is nice at times. I would sooner abandon all use of steak knives and completely switch over to butter knives. There isn't any reason for a CPF'er to fear LiIon's, although for some uses (like the long-running, low level Sub-Zero Peaks) an alkaline might be best, and a step-down in voltage can substantially reduce heat build-up in extended use on higher performance lights. It has been my observation that CPF'ers tend to be driven by very specific performance goals, and if one of these goals happens to require more voltage, go LiIon.

 

[KiwiMark]

I only avoid them when lending or giving a flashlight gift to anyone not fully aware of how to properly take care of the chemistry...which is basically anyone not participating on CPF.

+1 from me too.

I use Li-ion all the time, in all sizes (10440, 14500, 16340, 18650, 26500, 32650) and several chemistries (LiCo, LiMn, LiFePO4). But when it comes to friends & relatives I make suggestions based on the use of Eneloops.

I appreciate that not everyone is the same as me, they don't all happily check voltages with a multimeter and use hobby chargers to test the capacity. Not everyone can be trusted to not borrow 2 of their 14500 cells to put into the TV remote. An enthusiast like me might run a light on 8 x IMR 18650 cells and have the 12V 90W bulb pushing out 212W while running at 20.2V regulated - but that doesn't mean that my setup is a good idea for everyone. Li-ion is good if you know what you are doing, but not every knows and in many cases they are not interested in learning.

 

[etc]

nope, not me. I used NiMh for years but once moved into Li-Ion, never looked back. They are great.

Going from Li-IOn to NiMH is a step back. Why do you think laptop makers went from 3/4AF cell (same size as 18650 but NiMH) to 18650 Li-Ion?

They are more compact than NiMH. 1x18650 carries more Whr than 2xAA NiMH yet is more compact.
I like higher voltage of 4.2V.
I like the form factor of 1x18650.
I like the fact that I can use 2xCR123A in its place.
I like the fact that Li-IOn has almost no self-discharge.

I use nice high capacity 3,000 mAh Panasonic cells, unprotected. When it gets dimmer, it means it dropped below 3.7V, so recharge.

I have a lot of junk 18650 from laptop packs. These cells are really common. But for serious business, you can get Panasonic cells, which are great. I don't like 2x18650 configuration that much as you need protected cells for that.

 

[don.gwapo]

Not yet. Li-ion & NiMh for me and only NiMh for gf, families.

 

[red02]

My first CPF-inspired light was the Q123x2T for which I got 2 17670s. One died from an accidental over discharge, the other quit working after taking a 2m fall. The cost of replacing them was way too high. Besides when they worked they took forever to finish charging. Besides, the WF-139 is not exactly a great travel charger. I can only imagine how long a 2600mAh 18650 takes...

After reading a few threads about the dangers of improperly charging them and not wanting to buy another 32 dollars worth in batteries only to have them fail within a few months I took a look at AA lights. To my surprise they could do everything that I needed out of a Li-Ion based light without the expense. So I got a 8-pack of Eneloops plus a small charger and never looked back.

Its CR123As or NiMH for me. The benefits of Li-ions do not outweigh the cost of operating them, which is time and energy. I have better things to do than worry about how far I've discharged my battery or if I can leave my charger overnight safely.

NiMH lets me power my clocks, remotes, and most everyday house items without having more than 1 charger. I can plug in a leave a 2hr NiMH charger without a second thought, overnight or whenever.

 

[45/70]

I was curious if anyone has gotten into Li-Ion cells for a period of time and then stepped away from them for other types of cells.

It would be hard for me to do away with Li-Ion cells. About a third or so of my lights won't work with anything but LiCo or LiMn cells. Well, some of them will, but instead of for example, getting 200 OTF lumens with a LiCo cell, they only put out about 30-40 with a primary. Or, due to the lower voltage of primary lithium cells, they won't run for very long before they shut down, due to low voltage.

On top of that, I prefer to know exactly how long my lights will run when I take one out. With fully charged Li-Ion cells, this is not a problem. Unless you install a new primary cell every time you go to use your light, runtime is difficult to estimate with primary cells.

Dave

 

[Kestrel]

Up until now if you wanted to use 2xNiMH's, you just couldn't get quite the output that was possible from 2x LiIon.

The Malkoff M31W is a great new argument for 2x AA NiMH - For the next few months I will be using this configuration instead of my previous setup which was an M60 w/ 2x 18500. Comparable output (~240-250 lumens), however runtime is somewhat lower at ~1:15 instead of ~2:15 - no biggie for how I generally use this light.

However, when the Moddoo XPG triples become more widely available, there will again be no substitute for LiIons IMO - ~1000 lumens for 1:15 / ~300 lumens for ~6 hrs on /medium/. Pretty much impossible to do that without LiIons in a SF C3-sized LED light.